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Help with an unusual brass lens.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2020 1:23 pm    Post subject: Help with an unusual brass lens. Reply with quote

Hi folks, I'm hoping for some help or pointers on what this one could be. I purchased it purely out of curiosity as from the two 'front' and 'rear' pictures available in the bottom of a box, I couldn't fathom what it was. Well, having cleaned, lubed and got it working, I've been able to look over every millimetre of it... and I've still not got a clue.

Here's what I have.

It's a 1:6.3.
I calculate the focal length at around 142mm or 5.6".
The thread mount is 39mm in diameter, but with a fine thread. Perhaps on a par with T2 type thread (I will test this).

XIII is stamped on the barrel.
1 is stamped on the front cell.
13 is stamped on the rear cell.
When new, it would have been all black.

I've read that nameless lenses tended to be the budget ones, but from the little experience I have, this lens is fairly well made and feels of good quality. The nickel plating on the brass focus tab points at an expected regular use, for me at least.

Any ideas or pointers at all would be much appreciated.

Front.


Rear.



Far focus.


Near focus.



Front and rear cells.




Iris.


Diaphragm.


Thanks, Ian.

EDIT: Typed X111 when it should say XIII. Amended now.
EDIT2: Changed focal length to 142mm.


Last edited by Sciolist on Wed Sep 23, 2020 8:47 am; edited 2 times in total


PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2020 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, it doesn't look like a symmetrical design, but other than that, I have no idea.


PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2020 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a similar era lens with no markings. I think mine was polished brass originally and is symmetrical though. Have you taken any images with it? I recommend a an extension tube or adapter you can pus the base flush against then use Blu-tak (the poster board mounting putty) to make a gasket. It will hold well enough to take a few shots.


PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2020 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From Lens Vademecum:

Quote:
Series X111 CORIC This was made in f2.9 127 and 162mm but the structure seems to be unknown and it is one of the less common types, and just may be a slower version of Speedic. I was noted on an Ensign f/4 plate reflex as a f2.9/5in at No161.1x, and on a T-P Junior reflex at No156,98x. It was listed in B.J.A 1931, p567 as:

5in 127mm 3.5x2 5in 6.5x9cm
6.37/5in 162mm 4.25x3,25in 8x11cm


in the section Taylor, Taylor, and Hobson Ltd.

Not your lens, however, it seems...


PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2020 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
Well, it doesn't look like a symmetrical design, but other than that, I have no idea.


I initially though of an Anastigmat, as I can see the beginnings of balsam separation in the front group, albeit it seems quite deep for a cemented doublet. I keep concluding that the rear group a 3/2, however I have no evidence for saying that. I noticed today that it looks like the rear group may screw apart, but so far it has defeated me in separating them. I'm going to try WD40 tomorrow on what appears to be the mating surface as a last try. I applied quite a bit of rubber gloved force today, more than I should have got away with really, so I'm not trying that again.

Thanks for the comment Ian.


PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2020 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jamaeolus wrote:
I have a similar era lens with no markings. I think mine was polished brass originally and is symmetrical though. Have you taken any images with it? I recommend a an extension tube or adapter you can pus the base flush against then use Blu-tak (the poster board mounting putty) to make a gasket. It will hold well enough to take a few shots.


I managed to get a few turns of an m39 to m42 adapter and had a look through. It was turning to twilight so I only had a chance of a quick look through with a X-T1. However, what I saw looked better than expected on first impressions. I'll take some test pics and put them up.


PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2020 8:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

visualopsins wrote:
From Lens Vademecum:

Quote:
Series X111 CORIC This was made in f2.9 127 and 162mm but the structure seems to be unknown and it is one of the less common types, and just may be a slower version of Speedic. I was noted on an Ensign f/4 plate reflex as a f2.9/5in at No161.1x, and on a T-P Junior reflex at No156,98x. It was listed in B.J.A 1931, p567 as:

5in 127mm 3.5x2 5in 6.5x9cm
6.37/5in 162mm 4.25x3,25in 8x11cm


in the section Taylor, Taylor, and Hobson Ltd.

Not your lens, however, it seems...


Thanks for doing that visualopsins. I'm sure I typed in XIII, as in the roman for 13, rather than X111, but my post says otherwise. I've amended it now. Apologies for that. However, I have the vademecum and you've given me an idea on leafing through for a XIII. Do these marks usually denote a series or type do you think?


PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2020 8:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The focal length is approx 142mm or 5.6"(From Iris to focal plane). It's a five and a half inch lens?

Original post has been edited. The WD40 didn't work on the rear lens block, so I'll leave it alone. I find sometimes that they loosen off after some days, otherwise they are actually glued, for a reason.


PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2020 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First test shot. MFD. f/11. APSC. Flat settings. RAW converted to .jpg, otherwise no pp.





Last edited by Sciolist on Thu Sep 24, 2020 7:25 pm; edited 1 time in total


PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2020 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Like 1 Very nice! I was extremely surprised and pleased with the images some of the these old lenses create. Of course you have to take into account their limitations as well. Not good in low light, or with backlight. But just so much fun.


PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2020 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I personally wouldn't use WD-40 anywhere near a lens, I'm not sure how it would react with the balsam, I'd rather not find out the hard way.


PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2020 7:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lightshow wrote:
I personally wouldn't use WD-40 anywhere near a lens, I'm not sure how it would react with the balsam, I'd rather not find out the hard way.


Try mixing WD40 with some tree sap/resin...


PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2020 7:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was wondering if it could have a Copal #1 mounting thread, which I believe is M39x0.75 (matching the pitch of T2 threads)


PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2020 7:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jamaeolus wrote:
Like 1 Very nice! I was extremely surprised and pleased with the images some of the these old lenses create. Of course you have to take into account their limitations as well. Not good in low light, or with backlight. But just so much fun.


Thanks. Indeed they are. Half the fun for me is reviving them. I've just patched up the black paint around the front element. In the test shot above, the Foth Derby camera looks like it's leaning back slightly. I think the lens was skewed on the adapter ring, as in reality I'm only getting around 3/4 of a turn on to the lens mount. I'm going to have to think of something better. Perhaps tape over the existing threads and screw on a 40-42 adapter ring, if I can find one. There usually is.


PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2020 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lightshow wrote:
I personally wouldn't use WD-40 anywhere near a lens, I'm not sure how it would react with the balsam, I'd rather not find out the hard way.


Fair point. I didn't know it affected balsam. Here's the mating surfaces I think should screw apart. I thought it might help identify the lens formula. Tessar etc... -



It would have been acetone next, but if it's locked in place, there's likely a reason, so I'm going to leave it alone.


PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2020 7:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

visualopsins wrote:
Lightshow wrote:
I personally wouldn't use WD-40 anywhere near a lens, I'm not sure how it would react with the balsam, I'd rather not find out the hard way.


Try mixing WD40 with some tree sap/resin...


Really? Interesting.


PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2020 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DConvert wrote:
I was wondering if it could have a Copal #1 mounting thread, which I believe is M39x0.75 (matching the pitch of T2 threads)


That's given me food for thought, thanks. I've been trying to think of what type of camera would have utilised this lens. The victorian styling with the helicoid has thrown me a bit. An early press camera perhaps?


PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2020 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Test 2 - Infinity. APSC. f/11. Flat settings. RAW converted to .jpg, otherwise no pp.



1:1 (ish)


PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2020 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow that's some narrow dof! Or possibly focused beyond infinity -- the far tower is sharp, nothing else...


PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2020 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

visualopsins wrote:
Wow that's some narrow dof! Or possibly focused beyond infinity -- the far tower is sharp, nothing else...


Must try harder. I'll give it another go and check.


PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2020 8:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tippex has come out. Infinity must be in there somewhere.



PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2020 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I marked out the focal range on the lens then went from Infinity to MFD in stages, refocusing with the bellows each time. I found negligible difference to be honest. Unusual in itself.

I gave the glass its second clean which removed the last of the haze, along with another re-touch around the front element. And took advantage of a more flattering light.

I think this is as good as it's going to get for Infinity.

1. The clock is approx 450m away. f/11. Flat settings, no pp.


2. With pp - A light sharpening and general levels attended to.


1. @75%. No pp.


2. @75%. pp.


So, on to mid distance. Then I might try close-up as it's sitting on bellows. I've ordered a 42-39 step down ring to fit into a T2 adapter. It's hanging in the bellows by a wing and a prayer. And I still have no idea what it is, but I'm beginning to wonder about the quality of the glass.

Onward...


PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2020 11:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sciolist wrote:
visualopsins wrote:
Lightshow wrote:
I personally wouldn't use WD-40 anywhere near a lens, I'm not sure how it would react with the balsam, I'd rather not find out the hard way.


Try mixing WD40 with some tree sap/resin...


Really? Interesting.


Experiment to determine if and how wd40 and balsam (tree sap/resin) react...bowstring resin is tree sap...


PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2020 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sciolist wrote:
visualopsins wrote:
Wow that's some narrow dof! Or possibly focused beyond infinity -- the far tower is sharp, nothing else...


Must try harder. I'll give it another go and check.


Last unsharpened photo is in much better focus...


PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2020 12:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

visualopsins wrote:
Sciolist wrote:
visualopsins wrote:
Wow that's some narrow dof! Or possibly focused beyond infinity -- the far tower is sharp, nothing else...


Must try harder. I'll give it another go and check.


Last unsharpened photo is in much better focus...


It is.

Here's a loooong distance shot.

4. Tower is at 2.66km (1.64ml). f/11, flat settings, no pp.


5. As above but with pp - some sharpening and levels.


4. @100%.


5. @100%


I've overdone the pp slightly as it's just on the turn to posterising to my eyes. To be honest, I keep thinking enlarger lens. Did enlargers ever come with fixed heads and focusing lenses?