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Mamiya Sekor CS 2.8/21mm
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 10:14 pm    Post subject: Mamiya Sekor CS 2.8/21mm Reply with quote

Since I've been bying my first SLR, a Mamiya ZM, at the age of 15, I've been looking for that lens - now I finally was able to find a copy and buy it:



There's information on nearly anything on mflenses.com, but it seems that the Mamiya Sekor CS 2.8/21mm hasn't been properly described and tested yet here on the forum. The lens section reveals a rather modern construction - positive leading for reduced distortion, and with a classical wideangle rear side with two positive lenses, originally developed by Nikon for the 2.8/24mm Nikkor:




It'll take a few days until the lens arrives, but as soon as I have it, I'll give some more information.

The lens has a excellent reputation if we can trust the few owners who have published information:
http://herron.50megs.com/cs21mm.htm
http://mamiya-nc-m42.mflenses.com/cs_21_2.8.htm

I'm really curious how it behaves, especially since the last 21mm i bought (the Olympus 3.5/21mm) was rather disappointing ...

S


PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 11:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Mamiya Sekor CS 2.8/21mm Reply with quote

stevemark wrote:
Since I've been bying my first SLR, a Mamiya ZM, at the age of 15, I've been looking for that lens - now I finally was able to find a copy and buy it:
. . .


Is the 21mm the most scarce among CS lenses, or had you just been unlucky until now?

And do you have an adapter to use CS lenses on digital cameras? I have a 3D printed adapter for CS to Canon EF mount, but it's difficult and unpleasant to use.


PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 11:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Mamiya Z series cameras have electronics that are awfully unreliable so it is very hard to find a working one today. The lenses are all very uncommon and are very hard to adapt to a digital camera, so it's not surprising there is scant info on them.


PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 11:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Mamiya Sekor CS 2.8/21mm Reply with quote

55 wrote:
stevemark wrote:
Since I've been bying my first SLR, a Mamiya ZM, at the age of 15, I've been looking for that lens - now I finally was able to find a copy and buy it:
. . .


Is the 21mm the most scarce among CS lenses, or had you just been unlucky until now?

And do you have an adapter to use CS lenses on digital cameras? I have a 3D printed adapter for CS to Canon EF mount, but it's difficult and unpleasant to use.


The CS 2.8/21mm seems to be extremely rare. There are constantly some 4/21 mm Sekors (be it M42 or ES bayonet) for sale at ebay, usually at >300USD, but I never ever saw the Sekor CS 2.8/21mm on ebay.com. There was one on a polish site some years ago, and one on a German site in 2016. Even the Sekor CS 3.5/14mm Fisheye seems to be more common.

There's another extremely rare CS lens, the Sekor CS 3.5/45-90mm. It seems that there was a manufacturing issue with the lens, and probably most lenses sold finally went back to the manufacturer. I was lucky to find one some years ago, and cleaning the lens from the incredible goo that hat formed inside was a major operation:
http://artaphot.ch/mamiya/mamiya-cs-objektive/433-mamiya-cs-45-90mm-f35-repair

S


PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 12:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
The Mamiya Z series cameras have electronics that are awfully unreliable so it is very hard to find a working one today.

I have quite a few working ZE / ZE-2 / ZM here ... Among my cameras, the percentage of working Z-Series cameras is certainly higher than the percentage of working Konica T / T2 / T3 (I have around 15 Mamiya Z series SLRs and about 15 Konica T-series)

[quote="iangreenhalgh1"]
iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
The lenses are all very uncommon and are very hard to adapt to a digital camera, so it's not surprising there is scant info on them.

In Switzerland, they were actually quite common, since on distributor did push them ... There's a very good adapter for the Sekor E lenses availale from Fotodiox. It incudes a mechanical aperture ring (the same as on the Sony A => Sony E adapters):
https://www.amazon.de/Fotodiox-Adapter-Aperture-Mamiya-Mirrorless/dp/B00AUKDUF2

The Sekor E 1.7/50 and the Sekor E 3.5/28 feel cheapish (too much plastics), but the other lenses in the lineup are well made - even if their aperture ring is made from plastics. The 2.8/28mm for instance is a complex [8/7] construction, and the 3.8/80-200mm zoom was tested as best tele zoom by Walter E. Schön (http://www.weschoen.de/vita.html) in his extremely elaborate tests for German Color Foto magazine (about 30-40 tele zooms in the 80-200 range were compared).

S


PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 1:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
The Mamiya Z series cameras have electronics that are awfully unreliable so it is very hard to find a working one today.

I have quite a few working ZE / ZE-2 / ZM here ... Among my cameras, the percentage of working Z-Series cameras is certainly higher than the percentage of working Konica T / T2 / T3 (I have around 15 Mamiya Z series SLRs and about 15 Konica T-series)


iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
The lenses are all very uncommon and are very hard to adapt to a digital camera, so it's not surprising there is scant info on them.

In Switzerland, they were actually quite common, since one distributor ("Interdiscount") did push them ... There's a very good adapter for the Sekor E lenses availale from Fotodiox. It incudes a mechanical aperture ring (the same as on the Sony A => Sony E adapters):
https://www.amazon.de/Fotodiox-Adapter-Aperture-Mamiya-Mirrorless/dp/B00AUKDUF2

The Sekor E 1.7/50 and the Sekor E 3.5/28 feel cheapish (too much plastics), but the other lenses in the lineup are well made - even if their aperture ring is made from plastics. The 2.8/28mm for instance is a complex [8/7] construction, and the 3.8/80-200mm zoom was tested as best tele zoom by Walter E. Schön (http://www.weschoen.de/vita.html) in his extremely elaborate tests for German Color Foto magazine (about 30-40 tele zooms in the 80-200 range were compared).

S


PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 4:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Among my cameras, the percentage of working Z-Series cameras is certainly higher than the percentage of working Konica T / T2 / T3 (I have around 15 Mamiya Z series SLRs and about 15 Konica T-series)


Among your cameras maybe, but not in the wider world, working Mamiya Z-series are very hard to find, but not hard to find a working Konica.

I have the SX version of the 8 element 28mm, it's nothing special.


PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 12:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Mamiya Sekor CS 2.8/21mm Reply with quote

I look forward to see samples!

Of the CS lenses I have the 50mm f2, 50mm f1.7 and the infamous 45-90mm. Thanks to stevemark I was able to clean it.


Last year I found a Sekor E 35mm 2.8, haven't been able to try it yet.


PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2020 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
Quote:
Among my cameras, the percentage of working Z-Series cameras is certainly higher than the percentage of working Konica T / T2 / T3 (I have around 15 Mamiya Z series SLRs and about 15 Konica T-series)


Among your cameras maybe, but not in the wider world, working Mamiya Z-series are very hard to find, but not hard to find a working Konica.

I have the SX version of the 8 element 28mm, it's nothing special.


Rolleinar 28/2,8 ist version was the Mamiya SX lens.

The 2nd version was the CS ones.

Rollei users prefer the 2ns rolleinar version (CS)


PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

papasito wrote:
iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
Quote:
Among my cameras, the percentage of working Z-Series cameras is certainly higher than the percentage of working Konica T / T2 / T3 (I have around 15 Mamiya Z series SLRs and about 15 Konica T-series)


Among your cameras maybe, but not in the wider world, working Mamiya Z-series are very hard to find, but not hard to find a working Konica.

I have the SX version of the 8 element 28mm, it's nothing special.


Rolleinar 28/2,8 ist version was the Mamiya SX lens.

The 2nd version was the CS ones.

Rollei users prefer the 2ns rolleinar version (CS)


The SX Mamiya 2.8/28mm (aka 1st version of the Rolleinar 2.8/28mm) is has seven lenses:
http://artaphot.ch/mamiya/mamiya-sx-objektive/536-mamiya-sekor-sx-28mm-1-2-8

The CS / E / EF Mamiya 2.8/28mm (aka 2nd version of the Rolleinar 2.8/28mm) has eight lenses:
http://artaphot.ch/mamiya/mamiya-cs-objektive/425-mamiya-cs-28mm-f28

Bot lenses, at f2.8 and 24 MP FF, have similar corner resolution, but the SX version has much more CAs than the (later) CS / E / EF Sekor 2.8/28mm.

Complaring them directly, the eight lens Mamiya Sekor CS/E/EF 2.8/28mm has very similar properties as the Nikkor Ai 2.8/28mm which is regarded highly by Nikonians. The Mamiya lens is much smaller and lighter than the Nikkor; constructing such a small lens with similar properties as the larger Nikkor is quite impressive.

S


PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
Quote:
Among my cameras, the percentage of working Z-Series cameras is certainly higher than the percentage of working Konica T / T2 / T3 (I have around 15 Mamiya Z series SLRs and about 15 Konica T-series)


Among your cameras maybe, but not in the wider world, working Mamiya Z-series are very hard to find, but not hard to find a working Konica.

I have the SX version of the 8 element 28mm, it's nothing special.


I doubt many Z 35 SLR cameras were sold in the wider world. With Osawa + Mamiya going belly up early 1984, their innovative electronic 35 SLR cameras got little chance in the market, 4 models in a period of about 3 years. Before that Mamiya users already had to cope with I think about four lens mount changes so some goodwill was lost over time as well.
One of my most used lenses is the M-S CS 35mm 2.8, converted to EF mount. The M-S SX 55mm 1.8 is often in my bag too and that lens is praised by more users. I am less fond of my CS 135mm 2.8. Too much PF and CA. Light and compact though. Could be a bad sample. To suggest that Mamiya was/is a second rate brand is not justified if you consider all its products over the 80 years it exists. Some of the finest MF lenses were produced by that company.


PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Where did I say Mamiya was a second rate brand? The Z series electronics don't survive well after decades, this is not uncommon, many of the early electronic SLRs have longevity issues.


PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2020 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ernst Dinkla wrote:

I doubt many Z 35 SLR cameras were sold in the wider world. With Osawa + Mamiya going belly up early 1984, their innovative electronic 35 SLR cameras got little chance in the market, 4 models in a period of about 3 years. Before that Mamiya users already had to cope with I think about four lens mount changes so some goodwill was lost over time as well.

At least in Switzerland the late Mamiya 35mm SLR (NC 1000s, ZE / ZE-2) were selling quite well. Even these days, there's a steady flow of used NC-1000 on the local market. Not as much as SRTs or X-700s, of course, but still ...
To be exact: Mamiya didn't go "belly up" in 1984, but they lost their main distributor for their 35mm SLRs, worldwide, and that was a desaster. When they sold off their cameras and lenses in 1984, I got a ZM, a 2.8/28, a 1.4/50, the 3.5/50mm Macro and the 4/200mm. I was just 15 years old then, but quickly managed to get the necessary money to get all that stuff ... which says something about the prices at which the stuff was sold! Sadly the last E 4/300mm had been sold just 12 h before i placed my order, and I was devastated ...

Ernst Dinkla wrote:

One of my most used lenses is the M-S CS 35mm 2.8, converted to EF mount.

Still didn't find that one - either CS, e or EF - here in Switzerland! Obviously everone went for 28mm back then ...

Ernst Dinkla wrote:

The M-S SX 55mm 1.8 is often in my bag too and that lens is praised by more users.

Yep, that's an excellent lens. I've been using it on the A900 for landscapes. Image taken near Lukmanier pass in Switzerland, probably at f8:



Ernst Dinkla wrote:
I am less fond of my CS 135mm 2.8. Too much PF and CA. Light and compact though. Could be a bad sample.

No. The CS / E / EF 2.8/135mm ceratinly has quite strong lateral CAs. However, the resolution at f2.8 over the entire 24x36mm sensor is very good, and CAs can be removed easily. And the lens is lightweight! Just 285g ... despite its metal lens barrel. Compare this to the [4/4] Rokkor 2.8/135mm (515g) or the Leica R 2.8/135mm (730g)!

But maybe we should continue these discussions on the general Mamyia Sekor CS / E lens thread:
http://forum.mflenses.com/mamiya-cs-and-e-lenses-on-digital-full-frame-t71899.html

The Sekor CS 2.8/21mm is on its way (the seller has sent me the lens before I even had paid it ... because he'd known the artaphot website ...); should arrive on Wed or Thu.

S


PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2020 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:


The M-S SX 55mm 1.8 is often in my bag too and that lens is praised by more users.


stevemark wrote:


Yep, that's an excellent lens. I've been using it on the A900 for landscapes. Image taken near Lukmanier pass in Switzerland, probably at f8:

S


Nice photo! Thanks for sharing.


PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stevemark wrote:


To be exact: Mamiya didn't go "belly up" in 1984, but they lost their main distributor for their 35mm SLRs, worldwide, and that was a desaster.


S


I thought that too till I saw this article: https://www.nytimes.com/1984/03/06/business/japan-acts-to-contain-osawa-failure-s-effects.html

Domino tiles.

Nice image you showed there.


PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

According to a list prepared by Amateur Photography in June 1979, there were only four lenses in the 20-21mm category and F2.8 aperture at that time:

    Canon FD 20mm F2.8
    Rokkor 20mm F2.8
    Zeiss Flektogon 20mm F2.8
    Auto Mamiya Sekor 21mm F2.8


Nikon, Pentax, Olympus, Hexanon, Yashica, even Vivitar, had lenses with these focal lengths but the apertures were limited to F3.5 or F4. Not a surprise because it was very difficult to design a good 20-21mm F2.8 lens in 1979.

It should be noted that Nikon only had a 20mm F2.8 lens in 1984, even though Nikon was the biggest name in professional 35mm photography in 1979.

In 1979 Mamiya was a very respected name in MF photography, but in the 35mm field, Mamiya only manufactured cameras and lenses for amateurs and was considered a 3rd rank name behind Nikon-Canon (1st rank) and Minolta-Olympus-Pentax (2nd rank).

It is therefore a little strange that Mamiya had designed a 20mm F2.8 lens in the late 1970s. It is not strange, however, that such a lens is so rare today.

There are several cases in the history of photography where a manufacturer made a few copies of a particular lens just to impress the market. This is the case, for example, of the Nikkor 13mm F5.6, Nikkor 6mm F2.8, Pentax 15mm F3.5, Minolta MC APO Tele Rokkor 400mm F5.6, etc. Perhaps the Mamiya 21mm f2.8 is in that same category of lens built just to bring prestige to the brand.


PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stevemark wrote:

To be exact: Mamiya didn't go "belly up" in 1984, but they lost their main distributor for their 35mm SLRs, worldwide, and that was a desaster. When they sold off their cameras and lenses in 1984, I got a ZM, a 2.8/28, a 1.4/50, the 3.5/50mm Macro and the 4/200mm. I was just 15 years old then, but quickly managed to get the necessary money to get all that stuff ... which says something about the prices at which the stuff was sold! Sadly the last E 4/300mm had been sold just 12 h before i placed my order, and I was devastated ...

S

did you find the 300/4 after that? its quite common in my country, in fact there is so many Z camera and lenses available and as Ian said most of them are broken (specially ZEs).
i did manage to find some CS lenses in recent years and most of them are very good. for example 35/2.8 is very impressive. 300/4 is nice but it lack contrast wo and showing strong CA in most situations.


PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Olympus and Pentax weren't '2nd rank' companies in the UK market. Olympus dominated the government and defence sectors and Pentax the academic sector.


PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 5:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gerald wrote:
According to a list prepared by Amateur Photography in June 1979, there were only four lenses in the 20-21mm category and F2.8 aperture at that time:

    Canon FD 20mm F2.8
    Rokkor 20mm F2.8
    Zeiss Flektogon 20mm F2.8
    Auto Mamiya Sekor 21mm F2.8


They were wrong. Minolta were the first to have a f2.8 lens in this category: The Minolta MC-II 2.8/21mm (1968)! Two years before the Amateur photography list was published, they already had their 2nd computation on the marked: In 1977 the Minolta MD 2.8/20mm was introduced. It had just half the weigt of the 2.8/21mm!

And Olympus had their 2.0/21mm announced in early 1978, to be introduced in mid-1978.

Gerald wrote:

It should be noted that Nikon only had a 20mm F2.8 lens in 1984, even though Nikon was the biggest name in professional 35mm photography in 1979.

In fact, nikon had designed a 2.8/20mm much earlier. It was an excitingly small lens with 52 mm filter, consisting of 14 (!!) lenses in nine groups, announced as early as 1977 or 1978. I have images and the lens section - something you can't even find in Marco Cavinas excellent article on the Nikkor superwides:
http://www.marcocavina.com/articoli_fotografici/articolo-Nikkor-20mm-prototipi.pdf

Gerald wrote:

In 1979 Mamiya was a very respected name in MF photography, but in the 35mm field, Mamiya only manufactured cameras and lenses for amateurs and was considered a 3rd rank name behind Nikon-Canon (1st rank) and Minolta-Olympus-Pentax (2nd rank).

Surely true.

Gerald wrote:

It is therefore a little strange that Mamiya had designed a 20mm F2.8 lens in the late 1970s. It is not strange, however, that such a lens is so rare today.

Not really. If you are 3rd rank (as e. g. Sony was in DSLRs back in 2008) you may consider becoming 2nd. Or even 1st. And then you need stuff to attract customer. Serious stuff actually!


Gerald wrote:

There are several cases in the history of photography where a manufacturer made a few copies of a particular lens just to impress the market. This is the case, for example, of the Nikkor 13mm F5.6, Nikkor 6mm F2.8, Pentax 15mm F3.5, Minolta MC APO Tele Rokkor 400mm F5.6, etc. Perhaps the Mamiya 21mm f2.8 is in that same category of lens built just to bring prestige to the brand.

Probably, yes. I remember vividly the discussions held at Sony around 2010: They had decided to scrap the "full frame" road and were adamant to produce only APS-C DSLRs from now on. However their representants in the respective countries strongly opposed to this plan - so strongly, that Sony CFO made a tour around the world to discuss the issue! Finally the decision was revised - there would be no DSLRs any more, but FF would remain, just fo marketing purposes. They honestly thought APS-C would dominate the market "forever", but they were dead wrong. Phones and Full Frame were the way to go ... Siimilar discussion btw also around the Sony A 4/500mm super tele lens ... going for years, internally!

S


PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stevemark wrote:
Gerald wrote:
According to a list prepared by Amateur Photography in June 1979, there were only four lenses in the 20-21mm category and F2.8 aperture at that time:

    Canon FD 20mm F2.8
    Rokkor 20mm F2.8
    Zeiss Flektogon 20mm F2.8
    Auto Mamiya Sekor 21mm F2.8


They were wrong. Minolta were the first to have a f2.8 lens in this category: The Minolta MC-II 2.8/21mm (1968)! Two years before the Amateur photography list was published, they already had their 2nd computation on the marked: In 1977 the Minolta MD 2.8/20mm was introduced. It had just half the weigt of the 2.8/21mm!

And Olympus had their 2.0/21mm announced in early 1978, to be introduced in mid-1978.


The Minolta 20mm F2.8 is in the Amateur Photographer's list! Note that Minolta lenses were called "Rokkor", then.
Regarding the Olympus Zuiko 21mm F2 lens, it was probably not yet available in photo stores in England in June 1979. Indeed, I couldn't find any ads for this lens in Amateur Photographer of June 1979.


stevemark wrote:
Gerald wrote:
t;]
It should be noted that Nikon only had a 20mm F2.8 lens in 1984, even though Nikon was the biggest name in professional 35mm photography in 1979.

In fact, nikon had designed a 2.8/20mm much earlier. It was an excitingly small lens with 52 mm filter, consisting of 14 (!!) lenses in nine groups, announced as early as 1977 or 1978. I have images and the lens section - something you can't even find in Marco Cavinas excellent article on the Nikkor superwides:
http://www.marcocavina.com/articoli_fotografici/articolo-Nikkor-20mm-prototipi.pdf



The 1978 20mm Nikon F2.8 you saw was probably a prototype that was never produced for the market. There is little doubt that the Nikkor 20mm F2.8 was launched commercially only in 1984. Just to name a few sources that confirm this date:
http://www.mir.com.my/rb/photography/companies/nikon/nikkoresources/ultrawides/20mm.htm
https://www.kenrockwell.com/nikon/20f28ais.htm


PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gerald wrote:

The 1978 20mm Nikon F2.8 you saw was probably a prototype that was never produced for the market. There is little doubt that the Nikkor 20mm F2.8 was launched commercially only in 1984. Just to name a few sources that confirm this date:
http://www.mir.com.my/rb/photography/companies/nikon/nikkoresources/ultrawides/20mm.htm
https://www.kenrockwell.com/nikon/20f28ais.htm


Yes sure it was a prototype ... I was just mentioning it to give a broader view about the development of f2.8 superwides. We might inlude here also the Leica 2.8/19mm (I) and the Distagon 2.8/18mm prototype ...

S


PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Mamiya Sekor CS 2.8/21mm has arrived - it's in a very nice condition, focusing is smooth, and aperture working perfectly. The lens is tiny (as one would expect from the other Mamiya CS lenses), and lightweight (230 g), yet everything including the aperture ring is made from metal. As all the other CS lenses, it has a beatiful small silver ring made from polished aluminum. The lens has the serial number 10110, indicating it's the 110th lens made.



Mamiya NC1000 with Sekor CS 1.4/50mm. Lenses: Mamiya Sekor CS 2.8/21mm, 2.8/28mm, 2,8/135mm and 3.5/200mm.