Black Sonnar in LTM mount?

[calvin83]

I received a Black Sonnar T in LTM mount with SN:27091XX yesterday. Everything else seems in good condition except the front element(many coating marks). Rangefinder coupling is correct on my Canon rangefinder camera.

What makes me confused is the origin of the lens, there are few things make it different to the other Sonnars I have seen:

• The letters on the name ring are different to the other Zeiss lenses made in the same SN range.
  
• The focus ring and DOF scale are different to the other Zeiss LTM copies I have seen on the internet.
  
• The colour of the lens barrel. I don't remember if I have seen a black one.
  

Any ideas?

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#5


#6 The caps comes with the lens are in black too.

[Pancolart]

Beautiful find. If fake, certainly smart job worth the effort.

[iangreenhalgh1]

Fake made from Russian parts with a freshly manufactured name ring. This sort of Frankenstein creation is common in the former USSR. The only thing that looks like original Zeiss is the aperture ring as it has the correct lettering style and looks old - probably taken from an early Contax Sonnar that was beyond repair.

[calvin83]

I did managed to find a Jupiter-3 with similar lens barrel but failed.

[iangreenhalgh1]

Definitely a fake, that huge ugly screw sticking out the side shows it's not a factory made item and the name ring is obviously a badly engraved modern reproduction - there's even an obvious error - a spurious full stop in front of the = symbol.

Some info about fakes on this page:

http://www.klassik-cameras.de/Zeiss_Fakes.html

The marking of the distance scale with the red line with triangle at the base is distinctively Russian - a real Zeiss has a smaller triangle.

The use of a mix of full stops and comas also shows it's a fake made from parts of different lenses.

You can check Thiele's book to find out if the serial number was indeed assigned to a Sonnar 1.5/50, often these fakes have serial numbers that are found to be from an entirely different model of lens. Also, real Zeiss Sonnars have the last six digits of the serial number stamped into the rear lens group.

This is a real wartime (or in this case, probably 1946) Sonnar 1.5/50 in LTM:

[calvin83]

I have no doubt on the authenticity of this lens. For me, the collection value of such lens is higher than a genuine copy from the same period.

In my opinion, it is unlikely a modern reproduction, at least not for a profit as I get it for less than a regular J-3. It would be nice to know if anyone had come across something similar.

[Sciolist]

The Vade Mecum, page 361, notes M39x26 mounted 1.5 Sonnar's from around the time of WWII. They were normally 'T' coated, and the mounts bore a similarity to those later seen in the USSR. It states that nearly the complete set of lenses then available have been seen in this mount, one by one, over the years, in advertisements. The Vade Mecum takes a guess at war reparations to the USSR, or as a warm up for the production of Kiev/Fed lenses. I have no idea what exactly is meant by the term "warm up".

Time to get your Sherlock Homes hat on Calvin . Report back on what you find.

[Alex TG]

The serial number suggests that this lens was made in 1941, so hardly a war reparations...

[iangreenhalgh1]

Of course it's a modern reproduction, that badly done name ring makes that obvious. Whoever typed the text into the software that controlled the CNC engraving machine made a typo:

[Sciolist]

[Alex TG]

[Sciolist]

[fiftyonepointsix]

The namering looks like a fake. The font is completely wrong. Maybe done to change the serial number from the original. Some manufacturers use the ":" notation to indicate a duplicated namering. BUT- the font would be correct. I have seen several lenses in the 270 range that are "transition" lenses, one-offs converted to Leica Mount done after the war. Original LTM Zeiss lenses are mostly 272 and 285 range. The SN of your lenses is from a batch of 5cm F1.5 Sonnars for Contax mount, 1942.

Did you unscrew the rear fixture to test the serial number stamped on it? It should have the last 5 or 6 digits of the serial number on it.

What is the material used for the optics barrel? It should be an alloy material, not aluminum,

The wings of the aperture ring "have too many grooves" for a lens in this SN range. I have lenses with aperture rings with "wings" from post-war transition lenses that look like yours.

I have seen one-off conversions of Contax mount lenses to LTM.

This is an original Zeiss LTM lens:





With all that stated: I have built 5cm F1.5 Sonnars in Leica mount using parts from 5 different lenses, all original Zeiss glass.

[calvin83]

Thanks for the information! I have more idea now to find a real Zeiss Sonnar in the future.

For the lens above, I can't see any serial number stamped on the rear barrel without taking the lens block out. The weight of my copy is about 140g which is similar to other J-3. So, it is unlikely the optics barrel is made of alloy material which is heavier than aluminium.

Anyway, I am satisfied with my copy, which is unique among the other Sonnar/J-3 I have seen.

[iangreenhalgh1]

That's what someone has done here - build a lens from parts from several lenses.

The reason why it's a fake is that name ring, if it was Zeiss glass, why put a fake name ring on it?

Therefore, only logical to conclude that it's a J3 being passed off as a Zeiss - i.e. a fake.

[fiftyonepointsix]

[iangreenhalgh1]

Oh, great, I can just see the sellers of fakes using the set screw as an excuse now, claiming thy had to have a new replacement manfactured.

My 1938 Sonnar 1.5/50 definitely doesn't have any set screws, luckily. I wonder why they introduced that 'feature' for wartime production?

[fiftyonepointsix]

[calvin83]

[iangreenhalgh1]

[fiftyonepointsix]

[fiftyonepointsix]

[calvin83]

[fiftyonepointsix]