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Helicoid lube question
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2016 7:20 pm    Post subject: Helicoid lube question Reply with quote

I've never tried lubricating a helicoid before, but I'm going to try it on a stiff focusing 300mm lens I have. My question is after I clean the helicoid how do I apply the lube? A little in each groove at either end and work it in or ???


PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2016 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, chances are camera makers use a special grease for this, but I don't. I use molybdenum disulfide grease, tubs of which can be bought at an auto parts store. It does not separate and does not run, not even after a couple of decades of being applied. So it stays put. One tub will last you a lifetime. I'm still using the moly grease I bought over 25 years ago, and the tub is still mostly full. It's a medium thick grease and I don't use a lot -- just enough to coat the threads with a thin coat. As to how I apply it, I just use my fingers and rub it in real well. But you can use something like a toothbrush for even distribution.

My only caveat about using it is don't use too much. Just a thin coat on the helicals is all that's necessary.


PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2016 10:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Has anyone tried this? http://www.ebay.com/itm/Helioid-Grease-for-Camera-lens-10-15ml-Made-in-Japan-/252257484729?hash=item3abbb7bfb9:g:chQAAOSwBLlVKJzv or other similar stuff. Seems like it's a dedicated helicoid lube.
Personally I've used dirt cheap white lithium which can be found everywhere. Acceptable.


PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2016 12:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cooltouch wrote:
Okay, chances are camera makers use a special grease for this, but I don't. I use molybdenum disulfide grease, tubs of which can be bought at an auto parts store. It does not separate and does not run, not even after a couple of decades of being applied. So it stays put. One tub will last you a lifetime. I'm still using the moly grease I bought over 25 years ago, and the tub is still mostly full. It's a medium thick grease and I don't use a lot -- just enough to coat the threads with a thin coat. As to how I apply it, I just use my fingers and rub it in real well. But you can use something like a toothbrush for even distribution.

My only caveat about using it is don't use too much. Just a thin coat on the helicals is all that's necessary.


Thanks, that's what I needed to know.


PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2016 12:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jiaming wrote:
Has anyone tried this? http://www.ebay.com/itm/Helioid-Grease-for-Camera-lens-10-15ml-Made-in-Japan-/252257484729?hash=item3abbb7bfb9:g:chQAAOSwBLlVKJzv or other similar stuff. Seems like it's a dedicated helicoid lube.
Personally I've used dirt cheap white lithium which can be found everywhere. Acceptable.


I was planning on using white lithium grease because I already have some. I've seen other dedicated helicoid greases and get real sticker shock from them. I guess I'd use them if anyone could say unequivocally that the cheaper solutions cause problems but I've haven't read that anywhere.


PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2016 12:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess I should have also asked what's recommended to clean the helicoid before applying new grease? I've read some use lighter fluid. Anything else to consider?


PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2016 8:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lighter fluid is also known as naphtha and it can be purchased at the big box stores by the quart for about $7. That'll last you for a lifetime also. If you plan on doing any camera or lens repairs, it's a handy solvent to have. It's flammable -- lighter fluid after all -- but its flammability is low, so it's safe to use.

You can also use acetone, or even the brake cleaner that you can buy in cans at the auto parts store. If you use that stuff, though, you should use gloves when spraying down the lens. It passes right through the skin into the bloodstream and is not good for your liver. And other organs, most likely.


PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2016 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I use white lithium grease too, works a treat! Smile


PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2016 1:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jiaming wrote:
Has anyone tried this? http://www.ebay.com/itm/Helioid-Grease-for-Camera-lens-10-15ml-Made-in-Japan-/252257484729?hash=item3abbb7bfb9:g:chQAAOSwBLlVKJzv or other similar stuff. Seems like it's a dedicated helicoid lube.
Personally I've used dirt cheap white lithium which can be found everywhere. Acceptable.


This topic has been heavily ventilated on the appropriate board of this forum, Equipment Care and Repairs.

Your helicoid grease looks to me a winner . . in Japan. Here in USA we have our own source for helicoid grease, which frankly might be the same stuff:

Click here to see on Ebay

Helimax is also available to Europeans through that eBay sale.

Such specialty greases as these are unnecessary except when conditions tend to the extreme. Leave your lens in a hot automobile, sunny day windows closed, and then you need Helimax. Ditto for those using their lenses in very cold circumstances. I use only Helimax because it is preferable to having to disassemble my lenses to clean away haze . . even light haze. Helimax is stable over a very wide range of temperatures. I'm betting your Japanese helicoid lube is as well. That's the hallmark of any specialty helicoid grease, one designed for the job.

Here is a link to an earlier discussion of the topic on this forum:

http://forum.mflenses.com/any-opinions-on-helimax-xp-t53287.html

There are a couple of posts there, nearer to the end of the thread, from other users. Also there is suggestion regarding the "smell test". If you can smell a lube, you don't want it on your helicoids. It's the volatiles you are smelling and they are trouble when trapped inside a lens.


Last edited by guardian on Wed Mar 30, 2016 1:10 pm; edited 1 time in total


PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2016 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To save on solvent (and thereby the environment and your health from breathing the vapors), I'd recommend wiping most of the old grease off with a simple rag/cloth (non-shedding) and use a naphta-soaked microfibre cloth to remove the remaining grease.
I use pre-moistened baby wipes, which are excellent for removing grease (greasy baby food as well as helicoid grease). They're cheap, effective and disposable, just be careful not to shed fibres by wiping too hard.


PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2016 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I disagree with Michael Cooltouch completely on this - molybdenum disulfide grease is the worst grease for separation. I spent my working life as a maintenance engineer and we had drums of grease in the workshop, the moly grease always had a puddle of separated oil on the top of it, and in an application where the grease wasn't regularly agitated, even slightly, the oil soon separated and could be seen on the surface of the grease. Moly is for applications where the grease is under high loads and lots of agitation, such as the constant velocity joints on a car drive shaft.
I have experimented and placed a spoonful of moly grease in a clean glass and let it stand for a few weeks on my workshop bench, and there was a clear separation of the oil visible. I posted the pictures of this experiment ages ago in another topic.

I use a general purpose lithium base light grease, something that would be used on bicycle wheel bearings. A lens will never generate the pressure on the bearing surface - the helicoid - that would warrant a high pressure or extreme pressure grease, and neither is a lens likely to be subject to temperatures that are outside a general purpose grease. They are rated to about –30 to +120 °C (–20 to +250 °F) at which points the lens lube is the least of the problem.

A lot of lens manufacturers used moly grease, and I have to say that just about every lens that I've had to clean oil off the blades had moly grease.

I think that the use of moly in lens helicoids was based on the thinking that 'moly is the lowest friction, highest pressure and temp rating, therefore it must be the best' - it's the best at what it's designed for, and I think that in a low pressure, average temp' application it was the wrong choice.

Here's the old discussion, but the picture is missing and I almost certainly haven't got it any more. I'll do it again, watch this space.
http://forum.mflenses.com/molybdenum-disulfide-grease-why-i-wont-use-it-t63387.html


PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2016 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For cleaning - whenever possible I remove the helicoids completely and clean them with toothbrush and dish soap. If not - usually alcohol on a paper towel. I avoid using naphtha indoors. Grease - it may take some experimentation. Some lenses need heavier some - lighter. Connect the helicoids without the grease and run them back and forth and few times - that'll give you some idea how as to much you want to slow it down. NLGI 2 grease is a good starting point for bigger systems. Re: moly - I hate the color.


PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2016 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I recommend this grease. No migration.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/HELIMAX-XP-Camera-Telescope-Optical-Instrument-Focusing-Helicoid-Grease-w-PTFE-/271194713421?hash=item3f2476ed4d:m:mAF2oqM4LNQGv6vRNVl8zXA

http://www.ebay.com/itm/HELIMAX-XP-Camera-Telescope-Optical-Instrument-Focusing-Helicoid-Grease-w-PTFE-/271211561097?hash=item3f25780089:g:A-4AAMXQCgpRnsCG


PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2016 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gerald wrote:
I recommend this grease. No migration.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/HELIMAX-XP-Camera-Telescope-Optical-Instrument-Focusing-Helicoid-Grease-w-PTFE-/271194713421?hash=item3f2476ed4d:m:mAF2oqM4LNQGv6vRNVl8zXA

http://www.ebay.com/itm/HELIMAX-XP-Camera-Telescope-Optical-Instrument-Focusing-Helicoid-Grease-w-PTFE-/271211561097?hash=item3f25780089:g:A-4AAMXQCgpRnsCG


I'm sure that's excellent grease for the job, I'd happily use it. But I would question why use a XP ( extreme pressure ) grease - where's the extreme pressure in a lens or telescope helicoid? My point is, that although in some respects there is no harm in using a grease that way above the spec' required it's perfectly OK to use a grease with a spec' that matches the requirement.

If you google NGLI 1 grease, which is the consistency rating, the greases that come up on the search are often a 'Multipurpose grease' but the XP rating is for greases suitable for use earthmover tracks and pivot pins. Way more pressure that a helicoid would see. Which doesn't make it bad or usnsuitable, just overkill.

( edited for clarity )


PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2016 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Lloyd, thanks for the input and the background info on moly grease. You know, I've been using it to lube lens threads for over 25 years. And that tub I mentioned in the above thread is the tub I bought over 25 years ago. I dunno, maybe there are different processes whereby moly grease is made? Because I've never had the problem you indicate. And I think I would have seen some pooling in that tub after 25 years. Honestly, that's why I made the remark that it doesn't separate -- because the stuff I have does not. Not even a tiny bit. The brand is Sta Lube, incidentally. This is the stuff:

http://www.tools2parts.com/CRC-SL3141-p/2027-8032.htm?gclid=Cj0KEQjw8u23BRCg6YnzmJmPqYgBEiQALf_XzcK1GND9zcxuq_Ub-0fK3S_uP1h5kGMM1G-4S0i1wa4aAsxi8P8HAQ&click=1006

I've used white lithium grease also and I like it too, but I've found that the white grease that I bought does tend to separate, albeit slightly. Slight enough such that I wasn't worried about its separating and causing problems with the iris.


PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2016 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gerald wrote:
I recommend this grease.


It's not too light?


PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2016 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Lloydy"]
Gerald wrote:


I'm sure that's excellent grease for the job, I'd happily use it. But I would question why use a XP ( extreme pressure ) grease - where's the extreme pressure in a lens or telescope helicoid?


Good point! I'll comment later.


Gardener wrote:
Gerald wrote:
I recommend this grease.


It's not too light?


In my opinion, the viscosity is almost ideal for most lenses. I have used it with satisfactory results on 200 grams normal lenses to 2kg telephoto lenses. I had to use a special light grease made in Japan (much more expensive) only on a CZJ Flektogon 65mm F2.8, which had a very thin and tight helicoid.


PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2016 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

guardian wrote:


Your helicoid grease looks to me a winner . . in Japan. Here in USA we have our own source for helicoid grease, which frankly might be the same stuff:

Click here to see on Ebay



Well..I'm not from Japan, it's just I bumped into the lube on eBay. Wink Helimax looks pretty nice, I should have done more research to find it out. If I have more relube work to do (although hopefully not), I'll def give it a try. Thanks!


PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2016 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jiaming wrote:
guardian wrote:


Your helicoid grease looks to me a winner . . in Japan. Here in USA we have our own source for helicoid grease, which frankly might be the same stuff:

Click here to see on Ebay



Well..I'm not from Japan, it's just I bumped into the lube on eBay. Wink Helimax looks pretty nice, I should have done more research to find it out. If I have more relube work to do (although hopefully not), I'll def give it a try. Thanks!


No problemo. I wasn't suggesting where you were. Your lube does appear to be Japanese. But no matter. Everything is international today. It is all good provided seller is willing to ship to country where one lives.

I would tend to have confidence in your Japan lube - that it is made correctly specifically for lenses. If you have some smell it. If there is no odor you can detect with your nose, that would be a positive indicator. Real lens lube contains virtually no volatiles . . . for obvious reasons!

Lord knows the Japanese know how to build lenses - great ones! It's not a surprise there is proper lube available there. I'll stick with the Helimax for now, though, because I think it also is designed for lenses and because it is less expensive since it is sold here in USA, and that is where I am. It costs more to import stuff.


PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2016 10:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lloydy wrote:
Gerald wrote:
I recommend this grease. No migration.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/HELIMAX-XP-Camera-Telescope-Optical-Instrument-Focusing-Helicoid-Grease-w-PTFE-/271194713421?hash=item3f2476ed4d:m:mAF2oqM4LNQGv6vRNVl8zXA

http://www.ebay.com/itm/HELIMAX-XP-Camera-Telescope-Optical-Instrument-Focusing-Helicoid-Grease-w-PTFE-/271211561097?hash=item3f25780089:g:A-4AAMXQCgpRnsCG


I'm sure that's excellent grease for the job, I'd happily use it. But I would question why use a XP ( extreme pressure ) grease - where's the extreme pressure in a lens or telescope helicoid? My point is, that although in some respects there is no harm in using a grease that way above the spec' required it's perfectly OK to use a grease with a spec' that matches the requirement.

If you google NGLI 1 grease, which is the consistency rating, the greases that come up on the search are often a 'Multipurpose grease' but the XP rating is for greases suitable for use earthmover tracks and pivot pins. Way more pressure that a helicoid would see. Which doesn't make it bad or usnsuitable, just overkill.

( edited for clarity )


Probably you're totally right. I'm not a mechanical engineer, much less an expert in lubricants, so I don't have the slightest intention to challenge what you said.

I don't have engineering data about pressure in a lens helicoid , but as we know, pressure is given by force/area. If the area is very small, the pressure can be very large even if the force is moderate. In certain lenses the helicoid thread is very narrow compared to the pitch. It is the case of the CZJ Sonnar 180mm F2.8. Note the darkening of the grease in the helicoid thread. I think the darkening was caused by aluminum powder from helicoid wear. This is a proof that there is occasional breakdown of lubricant film, allowing metal-to-metal contact. The grease was the Helimax XP, so even an extreme-pressure grease couldn't prevent metal-to-metal contact in certain conditions.

CZJ Sonnar 180mm F2.8 with the focusing helicoid exposed:


I must confess that I am a little skeptical about all the marvels the manufacturers claim about the lubricants they produce. I think 10% is good science and 90% pure marketing. The truth is, the knowledge on lubricants is much less than what manufacturers say they have. Not long ago, Zeiss used whale oil to lubricate the shutters of the Contax cameras with disastrous results! Read the section "The Proper Lubricants" to understand what I mean:
http://www.zeisscamera.com/articles_explain.shtml


PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2016 4:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gerald wrote:
I recommend this grease. No migration.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/HELIMAX-XP-Camera-Telescope-Optical-Instrument-Focusing-Helicoid-Grease-w-PTFE-/271194713421?hash=item3f2476ed4d:m:mAF2oqM4LNQGv6vRNVl8zXA

http://www.ebay.com/itm/HELIMAX-XP-Camera-Telescope-Optical-Instrument-Focusing-Helicoid-Grease-w-PTFE-/271211561097?hash=item3f25780089:g:A-4AAMXQCgpRnsCG


After deciding to use white lithium grease I discovered that I didn't have any of it. So I went searching and found this very product and ordered one. The comments about it I could find were very positive.


PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2016 9:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Jiaming"]Has anyone tried this? http://www.ebay.com/itm/Helioid-Grease-for-Camera-lens-10-15ml-Made-in-Japan-/252257484729?hash=item3abbb7bfb9:g:chQAAOSwBLlVKJzv or other similar stuff. Seems like it's a dedicated helicoid lube.
Personally I've used dirt cheap white lithium which can be found everywhere. Acceptable.[/quote]


PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2016 11:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dutch_dk wrote:
Jiaming wrote:
Has anyone tried this? http://www.ebay.com/itm/Helioid-Grease-for-Camera-lens-10-15ml-Made-in-Japan-/252257484729?hash=item3abbb7bfb9:g:chQAAOSwBLlVKJzv or other similar stuff. Seems like it's a dedicated helicoid lube.
Personally I've used dirt cheap white lithium which can be found everywhere. Acceptable.


It's probably perfectly good, but it's expensive and there's no tech' spec' on it at all.. I suspect some sellers have a huge drum of general purpose grease and just spoons it into small pots and sells it as helicoid grease for a huge profit, but I'm a well know cynic.... Rolling Eyes


PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 2:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lloydy wrote:
dutch_dk wrote:
Jiaming wrote:
Has anyone tried this? http://www.ebay.com/itm/Helioid-Grease-for-Camera-lens-10-15ml-Made-in-Japan-/252257484729?hash=item3abbb7bfb9:g:chQAAOSwBLlVKJzv or other similar stuff. Seems like it's a dedicated helicoid lube.
Personally I've used dirt cheap white lithium which can be found everywhere. Acceptable.


It's probably perfectly good, but it's expensive and there's no tech' spec' on it at all.. I suspect some sellers have a huge drum of general purpose grease and just spoons it into small pots and sells it as helicoid grease for a huge profit, but I'm a well know cynic.... Rolling Eyes

Yes. The selling these are highly profitable. Wink


PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lloydy wrote:
It's probably perfectly good, but it's expensive and there's no tech' spec' on it at all.. I suspect some sellers have a huge drum of general purpose grease and just spoons it into small pots and sells it as helicoid grease for a huge profit, but I'm a well know cynic.... Rolling Eyes


I have a friend who started doing this (not with grease lube) and made an absolute killing. I mean you would not believe how successful he is.