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Soviet RO- lenses
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:09 pm    Post subject: Soviet RO- lenses Reply with quote

Hi,
I use a lot and absolutely love that series of lenses known with strange names like OKS, RO etc.
While I was able to "decode" the meaning of most of them, I could not find an explanation for those lenses with RO- designation, like the RO4-1M 35mm f2, RO3-3M 50mm f2 etc.

Now I think I have figured out where the name comes from. They were mounted on cameras used among other things by the military to photograph and map the battle field, so maybe the name means "Разведочный Oбъектив" which translated means more or less "reconnaissance lens".

Can anybody confirm or confute this theory?

Thanks.


PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2019 10:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Soviet RO- lenses Reply with quote

wolan wrote:
While I was able to "decode" the meaning of most of them, I could not find an explanation for those lenses with RO- designation

That's because there is no particular meaning for the RO designation Smile Just some sort of factory naming. Just like the Ж lenses - it probably means something, but nobody knows what and nobody really cares.
There are photo taking RO lenses, cinema taking RO lenses, filmstrip projection RO lenses, cinema projection RO lenses and so on.
They were renamed later (models that were still in production) according to new standartized system and became OKP/OKS/etc, and later were renamed again to 16KP/35KP/etc.
For example, RO-109-1 became OKP1-50-1 and then 16KP-1,2/50.


PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2019 11:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ГОСТ 26157-84

"Условное обозначение объектива должно содержать: тип объектива, порядковый номер расчета оптической системы, фокусное расстояние, порядковый номер варианта исполнения конструкции объектива.

Пример условного обозначения киносъемочного объектива для съемки 16-мм кинофильмов, второго расчета оптической системы, с фокусным расстоянием 75 мм и первым вариантом исполнения конструкции объектива:

16ОКС2—75—1

..."

О - объектив
К - киносъемочный
С - схема (оптическая)

I think that there is another standard for the designation of lenses of the brand "РO". maybe:Р - репродукционный, О - объектив.


PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@Sergtum
I guess ОКС is for Объектив КиноСъемки , as ОКП is for Объектив КиноПроекции.

РО and Ж are a bit more mysterious. But the Ж (GOMZ) lenses were the first cine lenses made (if you don't count the 3 GOI prototype Helios-1, 2 and 3). But I have no idea what they mean. But I don't think RO means Reproduction, because RO are cine and projection lenses. Some reproduction lenses have name OR (ОР-000 for exemple, or ОР-451 / 452).


PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 3:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BurstMox wrote:
@Sergtum
I guess ОКС is for Объектив КиноСъемки , as ОКП is for Объектив КиноПроекции.



Oh, yeah. Answer is obvious. I'm stupid.


PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 8:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

about marking "РO".
many Soviet lenses had to be labeled according to state standards (GOST). self-labeling of lenses was allowed at some time by the manufacturers themselves (I will attach the link later). probably somewhere there is true information about the origin of the marking "РO". I haven't found it yet.
I like the version on the link:

"РО - марка объектива. Как расшифровывается эта аббревиатура (и расшифровывается ли вообще), я не знаю, единственное, что приходит в голову - что это не русские буквы, а латинские, и обозначает это, соответственно, "Projection Objective". Это лишь моё предположение."

https://aran7.livejournal.com/174563.html


PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.deep-life.ru/hran/kino-lens.pdf

п.33 ГОСТ 3840-61

"... указывается условный шифр, присвоенный предприятием-поставщиком (например, П-5, РО-501, РО-109). "


PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sergtum wrote:
единственное, что приходит в голову - что это не русские буквы, а латинские, и обозначает это, соответственно, "Projection Objective"

This version is completely unviable, because there are many non-projection RO lenses, as I've said earlier - for example, RO-3, RO-4, RO-51 and some others


PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alex TG wrote:
sergtum wrote:
единственное, что приходит в голову - что это не русские буквы, а латинские, и обозначает это, соответственно, "Projection Objective"

This version is completely unviable, because there are many non-projection RO lenses, as I've said earlier - for example, RO-3, RO-4, RO-51 and some others


"Projection Objective" - "PO" why not?
This can be accepted as a version of the "PO" marking, as long as there is no documentary evidence.
There is also another version of marking film-shooting lenses with the designation "PO". It is two letters Родин-Объектив by the name of the engineer KMZ who developed lenses. I couldn't find documentary evidence of that. But this assumption as a version can also be seen. Rodin developed lenses (see links):

"Родина — объективы по оптической схеме, разработанной В. Родиным."
http://www.zenitcamera.com/archive/history/marks.html
В.С.Родин "Широкоугольный фотографический объектив"
http://patents.su/2-100716-shirokougolnyjj-fotograficheskijj-obektiv.html

It is quite possible that by his surname named film lenses. It is possible that he developed projection lenses as well. We need to look for reliable information.


PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sergtum wrote:
"Projection Objective" - "PO" why not?

Again, because РО-3, РО-4, РО-51 and some others are taking lenses, not projection ones. They were developed for the cameras, not for the projectors.

sergtum wrote:
There is also another version of marking film-shooting lenses with the designation "PO". It is two letters Родин-Объектив by the name of the engineer KMZ who developed lenses

There is a problem to this version too - РО lenses were developed and made by several different plants (KMZ, LZOS, LOMO, IPZ, you name it) by different people
More then that, those Rodin's lenses are specialized aerophotography large format lenses with a specific optical design (8 elements in 6 groups) never found in РО lenses



PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually my point is that we should really stop playing this "guess why" game.
РО might mean just about anything.
РО might mean "русский объектив", though it was much more common to use internal designations associated with particular plant - for example, the first Helios design (which we all know is a Biotar clone) had internal designation "БК" (Биотар Красногорский - Krasnogorsk (KMZ) Biotar)
РО might mean "расчет объектива" (basically "lens design") which actually has some sense given the "РО" is followed by a (design?) number
I can come with ten more possible meanings just from the top of my head, but that's just my (and everyone else's) fantasies.
We'll never know for sure unless someone can find the real technical documentation with the actual full designation.


PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alex TG wrote:
sergtum wrote:
"Projection Objective" - "PO" why not?

Again, because РО-3, РО-4, РО-51 and some others are taking lenses, not projection ones. They were developed for the cameras, not for the projectors.

sergtum wrote:
There is also another version of marking film-shooting lenses with the designation "PO". It is two letters Родин-Объектив by the name of the engineer KMZ who developed lenses

There is a problem to this version too - РО lenses were developed and made by several different plants (KMZ, LZOS, LOMO, IPZ, you name it) by different people
More then that, those Rodin's lenses are specialized aerophotography large format lenses with a specific optical design (8 elements in 6 groups) never found in РО lenses




again and again
РО-109 - a projection lens! It is labeled as Projection Objective. why not? do you have the GOST 3840 issues from 1947 and 1951? maybe in these issues is given information on the labeling of РO?
do you have the technical instrutions (ТУ) for the manufacture of PO-109 production IPZ? maybe in these instrutions the clue of the name РO is given?
suggest your version.

Your examples are filming lenses (РО-3, РО-4, РО-51). These lenses have their own ideology of labeling, possibly by the name of the developer.
if you do not agree, then suggest your option.


PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sergtum wrote:
suggest your version

Please read my post next to the one you've replied to.
I've already suggested two versions. One of them I even like a bit. Though probably it's also not true. But who knows...

sergtum wrote:
These lenses have their own ideology of labeling

Surely you have some facts to substantiate this claim? Very Happy

sergtum wrote:
do you have the GOST 3840 issues from 1947 and 1951? maybe in these issues is given information on the labeling of РO?
do you have the technical instrutions (ТУ) for the manufacture of PO-109 production IPZ? maybe in these instrutions the clue of the name РO is given?

If I (or anyone else here indeed) had any relevant documentation, this thread would be over in a minute.

sergtum wrote:
if you do not agree, then suggest your option.

If I dont like some made-up fantasies I should provide my own made-up fantasies? And then we could compare which made-up fantasy is better?
Really?
Do you really think that providing highly doubtful "versions" is better than just to say "I don't know"?


PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 9:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alex TG wrote:

Please read my post next to the one you've replied to.
I've already suggested two versions. One of them I even like a bit. Though probably it's also not true. But who knows...


I apologize, I didn 't pay attention to this post.

Alex TG wrote:

РО might mean "русский объектив",


РО-109 was made by Ukraine. It was hardly appropriate to call such a lens "Russian," even in times of community "Soviet people."
The designation "РO" may well have been from the word "Родина" (the name of the film apparatus). But makes doubts still about РО-109, which is not a film lens.
I 'm not stopping yet and trying to find a documentary source on "РO" marking.


PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sergtum wrote:
РО-109 was made by Ukraine. It was hardly appropriate to call such a lens "Russian," even in times of community "Soviet people."

I agree, and that's the version I don't like (even if it were made in Russia, it was not encouraged to refer to any particular nationality in USSR, "Soviet" was much more appropriate term indeed)
On the other hand, the term "расчет оптический" (not the "расчет объектива" I've refered earlier) is used quite often in technical literature of that time (although it doesn't refer to particular lens designation). And still it doesn't explain other abbreviations like Ж (projection lenses), РФ (both projection and reproduction), ПМ (reproduction), ПФ (cine) and some others.

sergtum wrote:
I 'm not stopping yet and trying to find a documentary source on "РO" marking.

I would be happy to see any information on this!


PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We've tried a similar game of decoding product names with our products at work.
Most of the time we can work out something that seems to make sense, but there are certainly exceptions.
Several product lines have a group of products of roughly similar type, with a couple of extras tat don't fit the type at all.

I expect that originally the names were assigned to fit a rule, but the rule wasn't made known & later products were assigned to the same group by someone else with no knowledge of their composition.

Product names frequently don't make sense - a check on camera names should quickly show that! Some manufacturers use multiple names for the same camera, others have re-used a historical name.
Even the manufacturers with generally more systematic naming have odd glitches (Canon's 77D coming after the 80D)


PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2019 3:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sergtum wrote:
I think that there is another standard for the designation of lenses of the brand "РO". maybe:Р - репродукционный, О - объектив.


reproduction objective seems plausible, if they're enlargers