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What can I expect to gain going from EOS 50D to EOS 5D MKIV?
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2019 2:24 am    Post subject: What can I expect to gain going from EOS 50D to EOS 5D MKIV? Reply with quote

Besides the obvious of realising full image-circle projection onto a 35mm sensor,
and benefits to advances in high-ISO capabilities, what sort of things should I be prepared for
as far as the differences between these camears?

Short explanation: I've inherited some funds. It's enough for the wife and I to see to things
such as minor car repairs, replace a badly-aged bed mattress, bring our bills currently comfortable,
put some away into savings, and even leave some play for me to upgrade. I want a 5D MK IV.

I don't care to purchase new, as low-use examples are far less cost.
I'm still trying to be frugal and practical.
No need or desire for L-series lenses either, thank you very much.

My reasoning is as follows:
1) It'll use my only EF lens, 28-135, very well.
It's grabbed exceptional images with the current 50D, IQ holds up, AF works fine.
It's an excellent lens for casual use or impromptu needs.
The Sigma 10-20 can stay with the 50D; I'm okay with that.

2) All of my vintage lenses should be compatible with the mount adapters
I already have on them. Most are M42, a couple are Adaptall-2.
That's all I have, and none of the M42 lenses extend past the adapters.
There's two OM-to-M42 in the mix, but again, they don't project past the rear.
Olympus/Zuiko 50mm and Vivitar 28mm are these lenses, for an OM-1.
I don't own a huge library of any of these lenses, either.

3)Useable image size, ISO improvements, sensor improvements, capturing improvements,
sensor noise, etc. all have been touted as just about the best that Canon may yet offer.
I believe I want it.

4) It's obviously a large step(or five) up from my current 50D, which is still an excellent camera.
The ability to buy has me wanting a full-frame model, keeping the 50D.
I believe I could better-utilise the vintage lenses I own by putting them on a full-frame camera.

5) Film is not to my liking or desires, so is not in consideration. I am firm on this.

6) Yes, I am staying with Canon.
I like their shape, I know their layouts for physical and software settings.
As I have done with the 50D, I may find good reason to enable Magic Lantern
for use on a 5D.
I've been using Canon digital cameras since a PowerShot S3 iS, and I have enjoyed
each successive upgrade.

Questions:

Is the 5D significantly different in size to the 50D?
I believe it to be roughly the same size and shape.

I know the firmware menus will be different, but will they be significantly different?
You can direct me to all the online reviews and comparisons you like, but I have yet
to learn about any comparisons which spell it out succinctly.


PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2019 6:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's times like this when a visit to your local Canon dealer might be in order, even if you don't buy from them. And take your favorite lens with you so you can try it out on the 5DIV. By being able to handle the camera, you can check out the menus and the controls layout for yourself, get a chance to check out the all-important feel of the camera, as well as other important items, such as viewfinder info layout, for example.

Congrats in advance -- it's a great camera.


PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2019 6:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can't remember - does 50D have live view?

Else I kind of regret selling mine for 5DII. Main reason was the megapixel race that made 15 mpix pictures "obsolete" for certain uses.


PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2019 6:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://www.dpreview.com/products/compare/side-by-side?products=canon_eos5dmkiv&products=canon_eos50d

Size/weight seems indeed roughly the same. Low-light is worlds apart; a friend recently upgraded from a similar-generation APSC-canon as yours to 5D4, the difference is gigantic.

Depending on the lenses you're interested in, there's the new mirrorless line of Canon FF-cams. The 5D4 is a very good cam though, built like a tank. Also consider the battery-grip, making shooting in portrait orientation easier.


PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2019 8:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hire one for a weekend. Wink

I reckon you'll go "meh" But I'm a tight arse.

Gear, although initially fun, has never made my pictures better.

Period.


PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tromboads wrote:
Hire one for a weekend. Wink

I reckon you'll go "meh" But I'm a tight arse.

Gear, although initially fun, has never made my pictures better.

Period.


Laugh 1 Laugh 1 Laugh 1 man how true is THAT!!!


PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You probably didn't mention it, because you don't need to be reminded, but it might be useful to check the sensor on the new camera treats the old glass the way you prefer. Cooltouch's idea of visiting your dealer (if there's still one left) with a few of your favourite lenses is pretty good.


PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 12:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Feedback is much appreciated, everyone. Wink

Yes, 50D has Live View.

And no, I don't want the size & bulk of a battery grip.
It adds unwanted weight and bulk.
A big reason I've never desired a 1D-series.
One was included by the seller of my 50D, and I haven't ever put it on the camera.
Oh, and it's available, if anyone is interested. Genuine Canon.

Also, no: I don't want a mirrorless, or another maker's camera.
I'm not interested in investing time and effort required to learn how to use
a very different system, mount differences, RAW & firmware differences, etc.
I felt that was clear in my first post, just in fewer words.

Suggestions to check out at a local store are good.
I actually have a local dealer who most certainly carries it,
so I'll go there with a lens or two and memory card to have a go at it.
I'd forgotten that I am fortunate enough to have a dealer nearby.

*****************************************
One thing I forgot to ask about is a focusing screen.
While a split-circle is available for 1D series, there's no mention of such from Canon for the 5D.
I find the split to be invaluable, and have had one in my past RebelXTi/400D, 40D and now 50D.
With KatzEye gone for some time now, the only remaining steady source seems to be focusingscreen.com.
Plenty of screens available from eBay, but I question the quality.
Is anyone here using a screen from focusingscreen.com? How's the quality?
Or does anyone have other recommended sources?
Even better, is it simple enough to use a screen from either an OM-1 or a Minolta X7,
which I have, or another common 35mm SLR? The latter would be ideal, as they typically
offer a larger split-circle center over modern screens.
This particular point is a big deal to me, and it will be an item which will be obtained.
Guidance/suggestions will be most welcomed.


PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 2:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had been using a Canon Ee-S screen from Focus-screens, on my Pentax K10 and K5. FYI they just cut down Canon screens to size. So yes it was great, no concern about quality.

I also ended up using the EE-s screen in my 5D as I loved it.

There are folks out there who cut down the Canon Ec-B screen (do focus-screens.com do this?) for the 5D if you want the split prism live.

Still. Go rent one and just get a taste of the reality.

It's a lot of coin.


PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 3:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

While at the dealer please try the Sony A7RII. It has 48mp sensor compared to 5DIV 30.5mp. Costs half as much for a lot more camera imho. Come on; try it; you'll like it. Especially if you take a cheap adapter & the same lenses you try on the Canon.


PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 4:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

visualopsins wrote:
While at the dealer please try the Sony A7RII
Good grief, another one of you?

Really, which words didn't you understand?

I feel the need to be harsh in this rebuttal, because this marks two people
telling me to change over to a different set of products, which I have already
stated will not be in my future. Again: Which words didn't you understand?

How very nice for all of you for enjoying everything non-Canon, but you know what?
I like 'em! I like their camera shape, I understand their settings, I know their ergonomics,
their products feel good in my hands, I've several vintage lenses which are fine with the system,
and it's all very familiar to me. I like it, I'm comfortable with it, and it works for me.
Why is that all so difficult for people to understand?

Christ on a pony, but it's like people trying to convince others than an auto manufacturer
is far better than all the rest, when it's only personal preference leading the way, never considering
global operations. Why would I want Sony when I'm already into the Canon system?
And why would I buy into a different Canon system when what I have is already working?
Would you buy a Vauxhall when a Ford variant has everything you want,
or a Fiat when the local Dodge dealer has it all? Don't even consider marques
such as Ferarri or Bugatti while you're at it, because they'll surely fail expectations,
as you seem to always find something better out there.

Canon is right for me; it fits. Period. End of argument.


PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 5:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Laugh 1


PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 6:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well if you should see one of those Sony A7RII cameras accidentally while visiting the dealer be sure to turn around and not look back!


PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 6:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kds315* wrote:
tromboads wrote:
Hire one for a weekend. Wink

I reckon you'll go "meh" But I'm a tight arse.

Gear, although initially fun, has never made my pictures better.

Period.


Laugh 1 Laugh 1 Laugh 1 man how true is THAT!!!


Surely the opposite is true especially for you? Otherwise an insult imho...


PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 2:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, the reality is this:

I want a 5DIV, and have wanted one for a long time.
While it was inaccessible to my finances previously,
an inheritance can now make it possible.
And no: the inheritance will cover more than a camera.
Just in case you were wondering...
(As if I need to explain myself)


The problem I had was in asking about what I could expect to be different from one camera to another,
and some responses were attempting to draw me away.

Truly, I was asking about a maker's differences within a series product line,
not soliciting opinions for why any other maker or product might better-suit my desires.
Okay, if you feel it's better, then: TELL ME WHY.
Can you articulate the reasons?
If your answer is NO, then please do not respond. Very simple.
No harm done. You can continue to feel superior in your choice of photography gear,
and you can easily continue to mentally belittle others while they don't know it.


While I will never attempt to to suppress anyone's like or dislike for any given brand/maker
of photographic gear, just as I have never attempted to do in the past, I still question and am offended
by those who make their attempt to sway me towards their own preferences, particularly when
such people do not take time enough to thoughtfully express such opinions for a gear change.
It's one thing to state that "XYZ Camera will likely meet your needs better than ABC-Brand because of
points 1-2-3-4-5-6-whatever", while stating that "ABC-Brand is what you NEED, because yours sucks,
compared to what I own and use" is far less of a convincing arguent in your favor.

Please, everyone: be thoughtful and respectful to each other.
Such is why I enrolled to this forum as a member many years ago, wanting to become as much a part of
this excellent collective of knowledge as possible, just as much as I was welcomed and accepted upon my entrance.
I would mourn the loss of such a collective co-operation of knowledgeable and intelligent minds,
which would, in my opinion, be a tragic loss to the general knowledge and personalities of all who participate
within this fine forum of excellent people.

And besides all the above, think of the tragic loss that would occur if Attila found reason
to shut this meeting-place down. The collective knowledge would be gone, and we'd all
be lacking for any similar place to come together where the knowledge can be shared
and discussed as freely as it occurs here.



I have always valued and respected whatever exchange of ideas I've found here,
whether it pertains to my own camera, lenses, or somewhere else I may have considered
going with my personal interests. And if I was unable to contribute to a discussion
in any meaningful or insightful way, I've always refrained from sticking a rude or selfish
response into the mix, knowing and understanding always that I can only speak of
my own experience, while others may not even care what I think.
And while I still value relaying of personal experiences, and always will,
it still saddens me that there are a select few who participate here
who appear to be furthering their own agenda at nearly any cost.


PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You seem to be now soliciting other manufacturer options. Please forgive me if I'm wrong. Smile

As already mentioned the Sony A7Rii has significantly more pixels, costs $1K less, has all the latest firmware features. Being mirrorless the register distance is short enough to adapt many more lenses, such as for Canon FD, Minolta, etc..

Since the A7Rii is mirrorless there are other considerations in use. Others can speak to this better, basically, the SLR is better for action sports than mirrorless.

I have 5D classic. Been eyeing A7Rii for some time. Price new now is $1500. I expect $1K by holidays. I just hope I don't kick myself later for missing a once in life wildlife capture due to camera limitations. Laughing


PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

visualopsins wrote:
You seem to be now soliciting other manufacturer options. Please forgive me if I'm wrong. Smile

Truth be told, you are, actually, incorrect.

It's simple enough to find a low-use 5DIV for the pricing you mention.

What this all boils down to is, in my view, a battle of opinions when such topics are brought up.

As I've mentioned, I'll never have any disdain for anyone else's choice of gear, as it's simply
what they choose and like to use. I respect that.

The big difference is that if I would ever answer such queries with a suggestion such as you did
of changing over to another maker's gear, I would attempt to qualify my opinions with why I feel
it would be beneficial to the questioner. I'd explain my thoughts about the why's, at least a little bit.
You did not do that, and that's why I was bothered by your response.

I don't need or even want the additional pixels from your suggestion,
and truly don't wish to learn to properly use another system.
I've come to learn that many users of the 5DIV consider it to be not only the last,
but possibly the best, full-frame DSLR that Canon may yet offer, for many reasons
(if you don't consider the 1-Series, like myself).
It offers what I believe I wish to have.

If there are any convincing arguments yourself or others would like to offer as to why I may be
happier with another choice(besides an overly-bulky Canon 1-Series or similar), I will be glad to
entertain such rebuttals, IF such arguments are presented in a way which may help me to understand
why such differences would benefit my desires as stated.
Should your response(s) to such be thoughtful and articulated intelligently,
I may actually be receptive. If you are unable to achieve such thoughtful and intelligent discourse,
then I would ask you to refrain from commenting in reply, just as I have typically done
when I understand that I may not be able to properly articulate my thoughts in favor of my opinion.


PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If I may interject, allow me to add some perspective.

I've been using EOS cameras since 1990. Prior to that, I was a hard-core Canon FD shooter, then Nikon. So I always hung onto MF gear even after getting an EOS camera. I've always liked the old stuff, especially Canon's old stuff -- as in FD and FL old stuff. The EOS got regular use, but it was always for family snapshots and the like. Whenever I wanted to do any serious work, I dragged out one of my MF systems.

My first DSLR was an EOS, mostly because I already owned a few EOS lenses. Within a week of owning that camera I discovered this forum and discovered that I could buy adapters for my EOS DSLR that would allow me to use vintage MF lenses. And since I owned several Nikon mount lenses, I bought an adapter for Nikon straight away. But I also found out, to my dismay, that I couldn't easily mount Canon FD lenses to my EOS. As Canon was still my favorite MF 35mm SLR system, I felt like I was missing something important.

That feeling never entirely went away, so when I finally had some extra funds to buy a nicer digital system, I decided to go with a mirrorless Sony -- in my case, it was a NEX 7. I couldn't afford any of the FF models. But I really enjoyed the vast increase in resolution. And, best of all, I was at last able to use my Canon FD lenses.

Going with a mirrorless system ended up being a trade-off. Yes, I enjoyed being able to mount most any lens to my NEX. But, even though it has a viewfinder, I found it to be very lacking when compared to an optical viewfinder. And this is one area that I think cameras like the 5D models continue to have an advantage over even the most recent Sony alpha models. There's no substitute, in my opinion, to a good optical viewfinder. To me, this is still a sufficient reason to own a camera like the 5DIV even when compared to the most advanced mirrorless models.

But now that the trend has been established, it won't be reversed. Once the camera makers have tooled themselves up to producing mirrorless cameras, they will quickly find the advantages to the systems from a manufacturing perspective. Namely, vastly fewer moving parts and the synchronization of such. So, I predict what the future will hold will be fewer and fewer DSLR options and more and more mirrorless options until the eventual demise of the SLR.

So, being the atavistic anachronism that I am, I say, yes, get a 5DIV and use it until it finally wears out. Because one day your only new option will be mirrorless. So enjoy it while it lasts.


PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 5:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cooltouch wrote:

But now that the trend has been established, it won't be reversed. Once the camera makers have tooled themselves up to producing mirrorless cameras, they will quickly find the advantages to the systems from a manufacturing perspective. Namely, vastly fewer moving parts and the synchronization of such. So, I predict what the future will hold will be fewer and fewer DSLR options and more and more mirrorless options until the eventual demise of the SLR.

So, being the atavistic anachronism that I am, I say, yes, get a 5DIV and use it until it finally wears out. Because one day your only new option will be mirrorless. So enjoy it while it lasts.

The flappy-mirror and the rangefinder systems are 1930ies technology. I think in a few years, the DSLR will also be a niche-thing, just like the rangefinder. It's actually funny that camera-companies clung for so long to this nostalgic technology.

But I prefer OVFs too Wink

@ SkedAddled: The earlier mentioned Canon fullframe mirrorless could be an option. It's styled very much as a Canon DSLR, and so is the control layout. There's even an adapter so you could use any EOS-lenses you have with full functionality. But if you just want the 5d4, just get one, don't overthink Smile


PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cooltouch wrote:

So, being the atavistic anachronism that I am, I say, yes, get a 5DIV and use it until it finally wears out. Because one day your only new option will be mirrorless. So enjoy it while it lasts.



Shortly followed by shutterless, I suspect. The mechanical kind. We can't be too far off the mechanical shutter going out of production.


PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

APS-C to FF sensor makes all lenses see wider. Need 85mm to replace that nifty fifty for portraits. Mirror may hit back of 50mm and wider lenses.

2X megapixels 1.6X larger sensor

1000X Higher ISO for fast shutter speeds in low light.

9X Focus points

2X Screen pixels

No flash

Video

USB 3.0 for faster file transfers

WiFi Smartphone Remote, transfer files

GPS


PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Exactly.

Just hurry up with 2000fps, 50MP video cameras and we can be done with it Razz

So, Craig, how's the Mark IV ?


PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2019 3:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cooltouch wrote:
If I may interject, allow me to add some perspective.

...
Going with a mirrorless system ended up being a trade-off. Yes, I enjoyed being able to mount most any lens to my NEX. But, even though it has a viewfinder, I found it to be very lacking when compared to an optical viewfinder. And this is one area that I think cameras like the 5D models continue to have an advantage over even the most recent Sony alpha models. There's no substitute, in my opinion, to a good optical viewfinder. To me, this is still a sufficient reason to own a camera like the 5DIV even when compared to the most advanced mirrorless models.
...

...
So, being the atavistic anachronism that I am, I say, yes, get a 5DIV and use it until it finally wears out. Because one day your only new option will be mirrorless. So enjoy it while it lasts.
...


As per usual, Michael, your input is very well-articulated and thoughtful.
It is also meaningful to me in a way I didn't even grasp for myself until I read your well-considered missive:
"I found it to be very lacking when compared to an optical viewfinder."

Yes, THIS is a part of the equation I hadn't realized is so important to me.
While it's a fact the displays transmit sensor reception, it's also a part of (now)oldschool methods
for an optical viewfinder to be part of the process of capturing images, which is how I've always
liked to do it. I myself am oldschool in that regard, and I also embrace oldschool, particularly when
it is married with modern technologies.


Sjak wrote:
But I prefer OVFs too

@ SkedAddled: The earlier mentioned Canon fullframe mirrorless could be an option. It's styled very much as a Canon DSLR, and so is the control layout. There's even an adapter so you could use any EOS-lenses you have with full functionality. But if you just want the 5d4, just get one, don't overthink

I'm aware of the adapters, but early reports of actual use don't seem to feel they're all they have been
advertised to be, with metering and aperture-limiting mentioned so far. A couple of hints at EF and/or EF-S
lenses also not operating as would be expected, though not yet substantiated.


visualopsins wrote:
APS-C to FF sensor makes all lenses see wider. Need 85mm to replace that nifty fifty for portraits. Mirror may hit back of 50mm and wider lenses.

2X megapixels 1.6X larger sensor

1000X Higher ISO for fast shutter speeds in low light.

9X Focus points

2X Screen pixels

No flash

Video

USB 3.0 for faster file transfers

WiFi Smartphone Remote, transfer files

GPS


Uhm, looks like... selected specifications for a camera?
Am I correct? Is it an amalgamation of wish-list features?
Don't know what, as nothing has been specified, nor have any allusions been made.

The only part of that seemingly non-sequitur missive I understood was
"Need 85mm to replace that nifty fifty for portraits."

This apparently indicates your assumption that I'm a portrait-maker of people using my camera,
and in that assumption, you would be arrogantly and presumptuously incorrect in believing
that all who own cameras find it necessary to regularly capture portrait photos.
It also portrays an arrogant and presumptuous belief that a 50mm prime lens is required
by all who own cameras with interchangeable-lens configurations.

As a person who cares not if I have a 50mm prime lens, having that focal length covered
with two or more zooms, and one who also has zero interest in portraiture, I am both amused
and a little bit saddened by what you appear to be presenting as 'universal requirements'
for photographers.

If I am incorrect in my interpretation, then I invite you to please translate here
for all of us to better understand.


tromboads wrote:
So, Craig, how's the Mark IV ?

Funds transferred to me just yesterday, so not yet obtained.

I found a used one at less than 9000 clicks for US $1800, $1000 less than current-best pricing from Canon sale
and retailers. That may be the one.

I will likely have one in hand within two weeks from today.


PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2019 4:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think you read too much into what I intend as helpful comments. After all the subject asks what you can expect; I provided a list. My intention has never been to offend you, which I don't understand how obviously I have given your reactions.

Although I too prefer ovf I've been assured the electronic viewfinders have improved much since nex era; and being able to zoom the viewfinder is appealing to me.


PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2019 7:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Craig, that's a great price for a low-use 5DIV.

I find that the zoom function with EVFs to be not just a nice convenience, but a necessity. I've not had the chance to look through the latest generation Sony (or Nikon or Canon for that matter), but I have had the chance to look through an earlier generation FF Sony and one thing I recall was trying to get an object in sharper focus, when I realized it was in focus, but that I was bumping up against the EVF's resolution limit. This may be fine with AF lenses, but it isn't OK with MF lenses. Yeah, zooming will help, but it also makes for a more challenging situation to take a decent photo. You're pretty much restricted to static subjects when you're zooming. So, I think a good optical finder still trumps an EVF -- at least until an EVF is capable of providing resolution greater than the human eye's ability to resolve. Plus it has to be bright enough to handle bright sun situations without getting washed out. This isn't an issue with an OVF because it uses the bright sun for its image depiction.