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Kodak Printing Ektar
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 3:54 pm    Post subject: Kodak Printing Ektar Reply with quote
Does anybody have any experience with Kodak Printing Ektars ?
I have two of them 4.5/113 and 4.5/103, what type of outer thread they have ?
http://camerapedia.wikia.com/wiki/Kodak_lenses, informs they are of Heliar type, photofinishing, 5-element lenses.

Macheck


PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Nice gems you have! Looking forward samples!
There are 63, 87, 89, 93, 96, 100, 103, 113, 125, 127, and other focal lengths, all Heliar type as far as I know.
These are quite nice quite high resolution printing lenses but with medium-low contrast, I think a hood is advisable when used as taking lens. When used correctly in the right situations they can deliver razor sharp results.
Unlike many other counterpart lenses by Rodenstock, Schneider,... they have a decent smooth bokeh due the Heliar design.

EDIT: Here are some nice samples with Printing Ektar 89/3.8 by Klaus:
http://forum.mflenses.com/kodak-printing-ektar-3-8-89mm-t43814,highlight,%2Bkodak+%2Bprinting.html

Last edited by ForenSeil on Mon Dec 02, 2013 2:25 am; edited 5 times in total


PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Yep, quite nice lenses they are. I like their rendering a lot.

http://www.bnphoto.org/bnphoto/KodakEktarsIndex.htm


PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Thank you for the information.

Klaus, my lenses have interchangeable lens stops both marked 50 (inserted after screwing apart the lens), does the Ektar 89 mm you have tested have typical variable aperture mechanism ?

Macheck


PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Yes, rare pieces with var aperture, whenever I see them I try to get them.

I have a box full of the ones you describe, from a printing company that closed.

Last edited by kds315* on Sat Sep 28, 2019 8:34 am; edited 1 time in total


PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
OK those are mine and very visible is the outer thread (definetly not metric) very suitable to produce variable distance mount but I have no knowledge of its parameters (maybe US members would help).





Klaus or anybody please would you be so kind and to decipher the additional markings on them (SE 124 and SR 871 and L-71 short conj.) and maybe a picture of your lenses?

Macheck


PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
SE-124 and SR-871 are serial numbers.

In the EKCo lenses' scheme of things, serial numbers contain a two alphabetic character date code and a variable length numeric sequence number. I've always thought that the sequence numbers ran from 1 to as large as necessary independent of lens type and started from 0 at the start of the year. I could well be mistaken about that.

The date code is

CAMEROSITY for lenses made in the US
1234567890
CUMBERLAND for lenses made in the UK

SE means 1974 and SR means 1975. 1974 is quite late for an Ektar.

For more on EKCo date codes, see http://www.bnphoto.org/bnphoto/KodakID.htm

short conj is an abbreviation for short conjugate. I think, don't know for sure, that short conjugate lenses have shorter back focus than regular ones.


PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
macheck wrote:
OK those are mine and very visible is the outer thread (definetly not metric) very suitable to produce variable distance mount but I have no knowledge of its parameters (maybe US members would help).

Klaus or anybody please would you be so kind and to decipher the additional markings on them (SE 124 and SR 871 and L-71 short conj.) and maybe a picture of your lenses?

Macheck


Same as mine....


SE 124 and SR 871 are serial numbers indicating the year they were made, not L-71 though, so Dan is perfectly right!

From the Patent files of these lenses:



Last edited by kds315* on Sun Dec 01, 2013 8:31 pm; edited 1 time in total


PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Thank you danfromm and Klaus, didn't think of it as a serial number. I assume it was a method, they concealed the manufacture year.
So the L in circle is type of glass coating - hard coating or 'Lumenized". Nice to learn something new.

Macheck


PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 1:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I have a 108mm Color Printing Ektar with same case style. I got it from Surplus Shed. They purchased the inventory of several optics manufacturers (EK, Wollensak, etc) and have been selling it off. My 108mm is NOS, but I still haven't figure out how to properly mount it. I was hoping to use it for Macro but it doesn't seem to work that well for that purpose. It makes a superb hand loupe, though!


PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2019 6:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Some time ago got interested in radioactive lenses, those Printing Ektars are rather radioactive so better not to use them as a loupe!!!


PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2019 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
macheck wrote:
Some time ago got interested in radioactive lenses, those Printing Ektars are rather radioactive so better not to use them as a loupe!!!


Hmm, I will check them out with my Geiger counter/ Radiation Monitor and report back...


PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2019 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
macheck wrote:
Some time ago got interested in radioactive lenses, those Printing Ektars are rather radioactive so better not to use them as a loupe!!!


Hah! Verified that my Enlarging/Printing Ektars are indeed quite radioactive. They are emitting beta radiation at ~1mR/hr, or ~1000cpm. This is by far the biggest radiation source in my home.

Thanks for the tip. Now I have a nice source for testing my meter.

Edited to add: interestingly, my f3.8 Printing-Ektars are NOT radioactive. I also checked my entire lens cabinet and did not find any other radioactive lenses.


PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2019 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ray Parkhurst wrote:
macheck wrote:
Some time ago got interested in radioactive lenses, those Printing Ektars are rather radioactive so better not to use them as a loupe!!!


Hah! Verified that my Enlarging/Printing Ektars are indeed quite radioactive. They are emitting beta radiation at ~1mR/hr, or ~1000cpm. This is by far the biggest radiation source in my home.

Thanks for the tip. Now I have a nice source for testing my meter.

Edited to add: interestingly, my f3.8 Printing-Ektars are NOT radioactive. I also checked my entire lens cabinet and did not find any other radioactive lenses.


Good to know and glad mine are stored away in a metallic box Wink


PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2019 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
kds315* wrote:
Ray Parkhurst wrote:
macheck wrote:
Some time ago got interested in radioactive lenses, those Printing Ektars are rather radioactive so better not to use them as a loupe!!!


Hah! Verified that my Enlarging/Printing Ektars are indeed quite radioactive. They are emitting beta radiation at ~1mR/hr, or ~1000cpm. This is by far the biggest radiation source in my home.

Thanks for the tip. Now I have a nice source for testing my meter.

Edited to add: interestingly, my f3.8 Printing-Ektars are NOT radioactive. I also checked my entire lens cabinet and did not find any other radioactive lenses.


Good to know and glad mine are stored away in a metallic box Wink


I ended up putting mine into a steel box as well. I found that only reduced the radiation level, but did not eliminate it. It seems there is a range of radiation energies and particles coming from the lenses! Based on my radiation monitor protocol, most of the radiation seems to be high energy Beta. I think that Thorium only emits Alpha particles when it decays, so these lenses must have something other than Thorium in them. Anyone know what other radioactive elements were used in lenses, or if there is a Beta decay in Thorium?


PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2019 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ray Parkhurst wrote:
kds315* wrote:
Ray Parkhurst wrote:
macheck wrote:
Some time ago got interested in radioactive lenses, those Printing Ektars are rather radioactive so better not to use them as a loupe!!!


Hah! Verified that my Enlarging/Printing Ektars are indeed quite radioactive. They are emitting beta radiation at ~1mR/hr, or ~1000cpm. This is by far the biggest radiation source in my home.

Thanks for the tip. Now I have a nice source for testing my meter.

Edited to add: interestingly, my f3.8 Printing-Ektars are NOT radioactive. I also checked my entire lens cabinet and did not find any other radioactive lenses.


Good to know and glad mine are stored away in a metallic box Wink


I ended up putting mine into a steel box as well. I found that only reduced the radiation level, but did not eliminate it. It seems there is a range of radiation energies and particles coming from the lenses! Based on my radiation monitor protocol, most of the radiation seems to be high energy Beta. I think that Thorium only emits Alpha particles when it decays, so these lenses must have something other than Thorium in them. Anyone know what other radioactive elements were used in lenses, or if there is a Beta decay in Thorium?


Hmm, interesting, so I may need a lead box. Only know of Thoriumdioxide which was used for certain glass melts, no other radioactive material is known to me.


PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2019 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
kds315* wrote:


Hmm, interesting, so I may need a lead box. Only know of Thoriumdioxide which was used for certain glass melts, no other radioactive material is known to me.


Looking at the Thorium page on Wikipedia, it seems there are some isotopes of Thorium which produce Beta radiation, but they have short half-lives so would not still be present on these old lenses:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thorium

It must be something other than Thorium used in these lenses.

According to Camerapedia, the radiation level at lens surface is ~1mR/hr, but the Kodak lenses I have are producing nearly 1000x that level.

https://camerapedia.fandom.com/wiki/Radioactive_lenses


PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2019 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ray Parkhurst wrote:
kds315* wrote:


Hmm, interesting, so I may need a lead box. Only know of Thoriumdioxide which was used for certain glass melts, no other radioactive material is known to me.


Looking at the Thorium page on Wikipedia, it seems there are some isotopes of Thorium which produce Beta radiation, but they have short half-lives so would not still be present on these old lenses:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thorium

It must be something other than Thorium used in these lenses.

According to Camerapedia, the radiation level at lens surface is ~1mR/hr, but the Kodak lenses I have are producing nearly 1000x that level.

https://camerapedia.fandom.com/wiki/Radioactive_lenses


1000x that?? Which ones, the Aero Ektar??


PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2019 11:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
kds315* wrote:
Ray Parkhurst wrote:
kds315* wrote:


Hmm, interesting, so I may need a lead box. Only know of Thoriumdioxide which was used for certain glass melts, no other radioactive material is known to me.


Looking at the Thorium page on Wikipedia, it seems there are some isotopes of Thorium which produce Beta radiation, but they have short half-lives so would not still be present on these old lenses:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thorium

It must be something other than Thorium used in these lenses.

According to Camerapedia, the radiation level at lens surface is ~1mR/hr, but the Kodak lenses I have are producing nearly 1000x that level.

https://camerapedia.fandom.com/wiki/Radioactive_lenses


1000x that?? Which ones, the Aero Ektar??


OK, sorry for the false alarm...I was reading the wrong scale. The reading is 1000cpm, or 1mR/hr, exactly in line with the Camerapedia estimate. Move along, nothing to see here...


PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2019 11:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ray Parkhurst wrote:
kds315* wrote:
Ray Parkhurst wrote:
kds315* wrote:


Hmm, interesting, so I may need a lead box. Only know of Thoriumdioxide which was used for certain glass melts, no other radioactive material is known to me.


Looking at the Thorium page on Wikipedia, it seems there are some isotopes of Thorium which produce Beta radiation, but they have short half-lives so would not still be present on these old lenses:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thorium

It must be something other than Thorium used in these lenses.

According to Camerapedia, the radiation level at lens surface is ~1mR/hr, but the Kodak lenses I have are producing nearly 1000x that level.

https://camerapedia.fandom.com/wiki/Radioactive_lenses


1000x that?? Which ones, the Aero Ektar??


OK, sorry for the false alarm...I was reading the wrong scale. The reading is 1000cpm, or 1mR/hr, exactly in line with the Camerapedia estimate. Move along, nothing to see here...


Hi Ray, do you mind sharing what Geiger counter you use? I find different information on the internet regarding what particles are emitting from those lenses. Some said only alpha; others said beta and gamma. Even Geiger counter has difference. Many cheaper ones detect beta and gamma while expensive ones detect all three types. Thanks!!


PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2019 12:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
vivaldibow wrote:

Hi Ray, do you mind sharing what Geiger counter you use? I find different information on the internet regarding what particles are
emitting from those lenses. Some said only alpha; others said beta and gamma. Even Geiger counter has difference. Many cheaper
ones detect beta and gamma while expensive ones detect all three types. Thanks!!


I use an SEI Monitor 4. I highly recommend this monitor. See here: https://seintl.com/radiation-detectors/monitor-4/

The Monitor 4 does not automatically distinguish between radiation types, but provides a procedure to do so.

The procedure from the manual is:

To determine whether the radiation detected is alpha, beta, or gamma hold the back of the instrument toward the source

Gamma
- If there is an indication of radioactivity, it is most likely gamma or high energy beta. Low energy gamma and
x-rays (10-40 keV) cannot penetrate the sidewall of the Geiger tube, but may be detected through the window.

Beta
- Place a piece of aluminum about 1/8” (3 mm) thick between the instrument and the source. If the indication stops,
decreases, or changes, it is most likely beta radiation. Most common isotopes contain both beta and gamma.

Alpha
- If there is no indication through the back of the case, position the window close to but not touching the source
If there is an indication, it is alpha, beta, or low energy gamma. If a sheet of paper placed between
the window and the source stops the indication, it is most likely alpha. Do not hold the source above the window to avoid
particles falling into the instrument.


PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2019 4:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ray Parkhurst wrote:
vivaldibow wrote:

Hi Ray, do you mind sharing what Geiger counter you use? I find different information on the internet regarding what particles are
emitting from those lenses. Some said only alpha; others said beta and gamma. Even Geiger counter has difference. Many cheaper
ones detect beta and gamma while expensive ones detect all three types. Thanks!!


I use an SEI Monitor 4. I highly recommend this monitor. See here: https://seintl.com/radiation-detectors/monitor-4/

The Monitor 4 does not automatically distinguish between radiation types, but provides a procedure to do so.

The procedure from the manual is:

To determine whether the radiation detected is alpha, beta, or gamma hold the back of the instrument toward the source

Gamma
- If there is an indication of radioactivity, it is most likely gamma or high energy beta. Low energy gamma and
x-rays (10-40 keV) cannot penetrate the sidewall of the Geiger tube, but may be detected through the window.

Beta
- Place a piece of aluminum about 1/8” (3 mm) thick between the instrument and the source. If the indication stops,
decreases, or changes, it is most likely beta radiation. Most common isotopes contain both beta and gamma.

Alpha
- If there is no indication through the back of the case, position the window close to but not touching the source
If there is an indication, it is alpha, beta, or low energy gamma. If a sheet of paper placed between
the window and the source stops the indication, it is most likely alpha. Do not hold the source above the window to avoid
particles falling into the instrument.


Thanks Ray. This SEI seems a good one for the value. Will find a good deal if possible.


PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2019 7:55 am    Post subject: Re: Kodak Printing Ektar Reply with quote
macheck wrote:
Does anybody have any experience with Kodak Printing Ektars ?
I have two of them 4.5/113 and 4.5/103, what type of outer thread they have ?
http://camerapedia.wikia.com/wiki/Kodak_lenses, informs they are of Heliar type, photofinishing, 5-element lenses.

Macheck


No experience with them ....

Given their manufacturing period, the Heliar design, the radioactive Lanthanum or Thorium (first more likely) element(s) in them and their (L) coating, they could be compared with the Voigtländer Apo Lanthar wide format lenses that still fetch high prices on Ebay. Not the modern 65/125/180mm Apo Lanthars produced more recently by Cosina but the older wide format ones in leaf shutters.

Main differences; barrel design without adjustable aperture and an optical design aimed at printer magnifications. It still would be interesting to see whether the parts could fit in the older leaf shutters to give them an adjustable aperture. Speculative of course ....

I have not seen that many portraits and landscape images made with them, mainly close ups of flowers etc, either because the users expect them to perform better at those distances or they really are not suited for portraits etc.


PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2019 12:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Kodak Printing Ektar Reply with quote
Ernst Dinkla wrote:
macheck wrote:
Does anybody have any experience with Kodak Printing Ektars ?
I have two of them 4.5/113 and 4.5/103, what type of outer thread they have ?
http://camerapedia.wikia.com/wiki/Kodak_lenses, informs they are of Heliar type, photofinishing, 5-element lenses.

Macheck


No experience with them ....

Given their manufacturing period, the Heliar design, the radioactive Lanthanum or Thorium (first more likely) element(s) in them and their (L) coating, they could be compared with the Voigtländer Apo Lanthar wide format lenses that still fetch high prices on Ebay. Not the modern 65/125/180mm Apo Lanthars produced more recently by Cosina but the older wide format ones in leaf shutters.

Main differences; barrel design without adjustable aperture and an optical design aimed at printer magnifications. It still would be interesting to see whether the parts could fit in the older leaf shutters to give them an adjustable aperture. Speculative of course ....

I have not seen that many portraits and landscape images made with them, mainly close ups of flowers etc, either because the users expect them to perform better at those distances or they really are not suited for portraits etc.


From my understanding, Lanthanum is not generally radioactive. There is an isotope of Lanthanum which is radioactive, but it is extremely rare. According to my readings, radiation in lenses is almost exclusively due to Thorium. I don't have info on the ratio of Lanthanum and Thorium used in various glasses, but I'd assume the "Lanthar" lenses would use mostly or exclusively Lanthanum rather than Thorium. Are the Lanthar lenses radioactive? If so, it's probably due to some amount of Thorium added to the mix.


PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2019 12:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Kodak Printing Ektar Reply with quote
Ray Parkhurst wrote:
Ernst Dinkla wrote:
macheck wrote:
Does anybody have any experience with Kodak Printing Ektars ?
I have two of them 4.5/113 and 4.5/103, what type of outer thread they have ?
http://camerapedia.wikia.com/wiki/Kodak_lenses, informs they are of Heliar type, photofinishing, 5-element lenses.

Macheck


No experience with them ....

Given their manufacturing period, the Heliar design, the radioactive Lanthanum or Thorium (first more likely) element(s) in them and their (L) coating, they could be compared with the Voigtländer Apo Lanthar wide format lenses that still fetch high prices on Ebay. Not the modern 65/125/180mm Apo Lanthars produced more recently by Cosina but the older wide format ones in leaf shutters.

Main differences; barrel design without adjustable aperture and an optical design aimed at printer magnifications. It still would be interesting to see whether the parts could fit in the older leaf shutters to give them an adjustable aperture. Speculative of course ....

I have not seen that many portraits and landscape images made with them, mainly close ups of flowers etc, either because the users expect them to perform better at those distances or they really are not suited for portraits etc.


From my understanding, Lanthanum is not generally radioactive. There is an isotope of Lanthanum which is radioactive, but it is extremely rare. According to my readings, radiation in lenses is almost exclusively due to Thorium. I don't have info on the ratio of Lanthanum and Thorium used in various glasses, but I'd assume the "Lanthar" lenses would use mostly or exclusively Lanthanum rather than Thorium. Are the Lanthar lenses radioactive? If so, it's probably due to some amount of Thorium added to the mix.


Agreed, never have I heard about rdiation issues with lenses containing Lanthanum glass!

https://www.fourmilab.ch/documents/radiation/lens/
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