Home

Please support mflenses.com if you need any graphic related work order it from us, click on above banner to order!
SearchSearch MemberlistMemberlist RegisterRegister ProfileProfile Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages Log inLog in

Legacy ~20mm for A7rii
Post new topic   Reply to topic
Home   Manual Focus Lenses
View previous topic :: View next topic  


PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2019 7:23 pm    Post subject: Legacy ~20mm for A7rii Reply with quote
Hi,

Have been considering the Voigtländer 21 3,5, Firin 20 2 and Loxia 21 2,8 for landscape and the occasional mfd 'bokeh' shot. For that much money (SEK 8000-> 12000) I thought I'd ask for advice on legacy lenses at this focal length. Bokeh is very secondary and may be horrible.

Am looking for:
-Flares & blobs that do not spread across half the scene when shooting sundowns/ups (am ok with using a hood of course)
-Corners that are at least decent at f/8, a bonus if so at f/5,6 as not all shots will be on a tripod
-USD 400 (SEK 4000) or less
-Not the Canon FD line as I dislike its stiff aperture ring

Thanks for any suggestions. (Maybe the Nikkor Ai-S 20 2,8?)


PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2019 7:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Legacy ~20mm for A7rii Reply with quote
Spokklocka wrote:
Hi,

Have been considering the Voigtländer 21 3,5, Firin 20 2 and Loxia 21 2,8 for landscape and the occasional mfd 'bokeh' shot. For that much money (SEK 8000-> 12000) I thought I'd ask for advice on legacy lenses at this focal length. Bokeh is very secondary and may be horrible.

Am looking for:
-Flares & blobs that do not spread across half the scene when shooting sundowns/ups (am ok with using a hood of course)
-Corners that are at least decent at f/8, a bonus if so at f/5,6 as not all shots will be on a tripod
-USD 400 (SEK 4000) or less
-Not the Canon FD line as I dislike its stiff aperture ring

Thanks for any suggestions. (Maybe the Nikkor Ai-S 20 2,8?)


The Loxia, of course, surpasses any vintage 20mm by far - with very few exceptions such as the Carl Zeiss CY Distagon 2.8/21mm or - in high res film at least - the Zeiss Contx RF Biogon 4.5/21mm and its modern sibling, the C Biogon 4.5/21mm.

I can shoot a comparison tomorrow, using the following lenses:

Canon nFD 2.8/20mm
Konica AR 4/21mm
Minolta MC-X 2.8/21mm
Minolta MD-III 2.8/20mm
Nikkor AF 2.8/20mm (same optical construction as the AiS 2.8/20mm)
Pentax A 2.8/20mm
Topcon RE 4/20mm
Vivitar 3.8/21mm (Tokina manufactured)
Yashica ML 3.5/21mm

Stephan


PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2019 8:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Legacy ~20mm for A7rii Reply with quote
stevemark wrote:


The Loxia, of course, surpasses any vintage 20mm by far - with very few exceptions such as the Carl Zeiss CY Distagon 2.8/21mm or - in high res film at least - the Zeiss Contx RF Biogon 4.5/21mm and its modern sibling, the C Biogon 4.5/21mm.

I can shoot a comparison tomorrow, using the following lenses:

Canon nFD 2.8/20mm
Konica AR 4/21mm
Minolta MC-X 2.8/21mm
Minolta MD-III 2.8/20mm
Nikkor AF 2.8/20mm (same optical construction as the AiS 2.8/20mm)
Pentax A 2.8/20mm
Topcon RE 4/20mm
Vivitar 3.8/21mm (Tokina manufactured)
Yashica ML 3.5/21mm

Stephan


That would be great! : )


PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2019 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Konica 21 f4 is my choice for this query. Vintage superwides (19-21mm) are generally not nearly as good as modern lenses. I had the loxia and it is a dream lens. I will buy that one again (when money comes in the mail). I am currently using the zeiss 16-35 f4 which is a marvellous lens. It only AF though and I like control of what and where I focus.


PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2019 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Would be great! I know the Minolta MD 20mm 2.8 has not a great reputation ... but keen to see the impact as it is a really great little gem to handle.


PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2019 10:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Have a Vivitar (Kiron) 20mm f3.8 I will take some shots and post


PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 12:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I'm using the Voigtlaender 21/4 in LTM/M39 (first model) and the Minolta AF 20/2.8 on my A7R II. Should both fit into your criteria.
However, I didn't compare them directly up to now. Would be able to do that if you like.


PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 1:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
The old Nikkor pre-AI UD 20mm f 3.5 is a great lens. Want something more recent, most any of the later 20/3.5s are also great lenses.

If you're willing to try something a bit wider, I can highly recommend the Tokina and Tamron 17mm f/3..5 lenses. I own a couple of each and they are very nice.


PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 5:32 am    Post subject: Re: Legacy ~20mm for A7rii Reply with quote
stevemark wrote:
Spokklocka wrote:
Hi,

Have been considering the Voigtländer 21 3,5, Firin 20 2 and Loxia 21 2,8 for landscape and the occasional mfd 'bokeh' shot. For that much money (SEK 8000-> 12000) I thought I'd ask for advice on legacy lenses at this focal length. Bokeh is very secondary and may be horrible.

Am looking for:
-Flares & blobs that do not spread across half the scene when shooting sundowns/ups (am ok with using a hood of course)
-Corners that are at least decent at f/8, a bonus if so at f/5,6 as not all shots will be on a tripod
-USD 400 (SEK 4000) or less
-Not the Canon FD line as I dislike its stiff aperture ring

Thanks for any suggestions. (Maybe the Nikkor Ai-S 20 2,8?)


The Loxia, of course, surpasses any vintage 20mm by far - with very few exceptions such as the Carl Zeiss CY Distagon 2.8/21mm or - in high res film at least - the Zeiss Contx RF Biogon 4.5/21mm and its modern sibling, the C Biogon 4.5/21mm.

I can shoot a comparison tomorrow, using the following lenses:

Canon nFD 2.8/20mm
Konica AR 4/21mm
Minolta MC-X 2.8/21mm
Minolta MD-III 2.8/20mm
Nikkor AF 2.8/20mm (same optical construction as the AiS 2.8/20mm)
Pentax A 2.8/20mm
Topcon RE 4/20mm
Vivitar 3.8/21mm (Tokina manufactured)
Yashica ML 3.5/21mm

Stephan


That would be much appreciated Stephan
Tom


PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 5:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
My screw-fit Fujinon 19mm f/3.5 seems to tick most of your boxes ... finding one might be a problem Wink


PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote


I've recently obtained a Nikon Nikkor 20mm F4 K and tested it on A7R.
Not exactly a king of sharpness, though flare resistance is good.

I think modern ultra-wides are much better for landscape work.
Though you can fill a small bucket with Nikkors for the price of one Loxia.


PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
This is how my Sigma 24mm performed:

http://forum.mflenses.com/sigma-super-wide-ii-24mm-2-8-multi-coated-on-a7r-t80478.html


PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
aidaho wrote:


I've recently obtained a Nikon Nikkor 20mm F4 and tested it on A7R.
Not exactly a king of sharpness, though flare resistance is good.



I agree completely! My results mirror those of aidaho's. I like the images the Nikkor produces and my comparisons include the Canon EF 11-24mm f/4L and the Zeiss 21mm f/2.8 Distagon T* ZE. Both of these lenses raise the bar pretty high.

I use my 20mm f/4 Nikkor on the A7 Mii. Here is what the lens looks like - really compact and very reasonably priced. So reasonable in fact, should you decide on one of those other $1000+ lens you should pick one of these up as well - they take up so little room in the bag - and it can use small Cokin P sized grads!



PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Thanks for all of your replies and suggestions!

Kryss: Some shots from the 20 3,8 would be appreciated.

Tba_A: some from the Mino 20 2,8 AF and Voigtlander 20 4 too, sure. (I had the 25/4 Voigt briefly but sold it because of the color cast sides. There are ways to postprocess them away but I never found a particularly solid one)

The Nikkor 20/4 and 3,5 seem interesting and around 2-300euro on ebay.co.uk.
The one Fujinon 19 3,5 I see right now a bit more..


The Pentax A 20 2,8 has mostly good reviews too and like the Fujinon a bit dearer. Supposedly not that flare-prone and around 400gbp..I would be able to get the Loxia for 910gbp via ebay, with paypal's exchange rates, and the Voigtländer 21 3,5 native Sony for around 730euros. But it would be interesting to see whether I could be happy with something cheaper first.


PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Spokklocka wrote:
The Nikkor 20/4 and 3,5 seem interesting and around 2-300euro on ebay.co.uk.

I don't know about 20/3.5, but I got 20/4 for a $80 shipped from eBay. Wasn't kidding about a bucket Smile
As with anything, if you have patience to wait for a deal, eventually you'll get one.

With your budget though I'd rather wait for a deal on CV or another modern UWA.


P.S. Also, unless you also want to shoot astrophoto, or dimly lit indoor scenes, ignore maximum aperture.
Chances are, you are not going to find yourself making much use out of, say, even F4, because a lot of UWA scenes benefit from a big phone-like DOF.

CV did a bunch of F5.6 UWA's, and in my opinion that's the way to go: light, small, dark and wiiiiiiide.


PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 8:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Spokklocka wrote:

Tba_A: some from the Mino 20 2,8 AF and Voigtlander 20 4 too, sure. (I had the 25/4 Voigt briefly but sold it because of the color cast sides. There are ways to postprocess them away but I never found a particularly solid one)


Color cast is history with the A7R II. The new 42 MP BSI-CMOS sensor doesn't produce any of these problems.
Will try to do a comparison tomorrow.

BTW, I have also the UWA Voigtlaenders 12/5.6 and 15/4.5, besides that the 25/4, 28/1.9 and 35/1.7 and NONE of these lenses produce any color cast on my A7R II.

Last edited by tb_a on Wed Jul 03, 2019 8:44 pm; edited 1 time in total


PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I've added some information on the the following lenses here on artaphot:

http://www.artaphot.ch/systemuebergreifend/objektive/543-20mm-vintage-superwides


Canon nFD 2.8/20mm
Konica AR 4/21mm
Minolta Rokkor MC-X 2.8/21mm
Minolta MD-III 2.8/20mm
Minolta AF 2.8/20mm
Nikkor AiS AF 2.8/20mm
Pentax A 2.8/20mm
Topcon Topcor RE 4/20mm
Vivitar (Tokina) 3.8/21mm (beware - there were other manufacturers such as Kiron)
Yashica ML 3.5/21mm

Should be useful for a first idea about how these lenses perform for landscape. Of course it's not a detailed review ...

Some more infromation about each lens will be added tomorrow.

Stephan


PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2019 8:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
stevemark wrote:
I've added some information on the the following lenses here on artaphot:

http://www.artaphot.ch/systemuebergreifend/objektive/543-20mm-vintage-superwides


Canon nFD 2.8/20mm
Konica AR 4/21mm
Minolta Rokkor MC-X 2.8/21mm
Minolta MD-III 2.8/20mm
Minolta AF 2.8/20mm
Nikkor AiS AF 2.8/20mm
Pentax A 2.8/20mm
Topcon Topcor RE 4/20mm
Vivitar (Tokina) 3.8/21mm (beware - there were other manufacturers such as Kiron)
Yashica ML 3.5/21mm

Should be useful for a first idea about how these lenses perform for landscape. Of course it's not a detailed review ...


It's great, thanks alot. Serves as an indication of each model and what benefits stopping down provides in terms of corners and more central parts.
The AR 21/4 looks pretty even, the Pentax A pretty glowy even some ways down, the Yashica sure but what happened to the price there? Smile The Minolta AF looks pretty good too, as does the Nikkor 20 2,8.

And for sure, if I decide to go for one of these oldies then it'll be the first relative deal that comes my way most likely. I don't expect to pay 80USD for anything this century but I also want to shoot a wide on my upcoming vacation : )


aidaho wrote:


Color cast is history with the A7R II. The new 42 MP BSI-CMOS sensor doesn't produce any of these problems.
Will try to do a comparison tomorrow.

BTW, I have also the UWA Voigtlaenders 12/5.6 and 15/4.5, besides that the 25/4, 28/1.9 and 35/1.7 and NONE of these lenses produce any color cast on my A7R II.


Good to hear. (I used the Snapshot Skopar on an earlier E-mount APS-C.)


PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2019 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
The performance of a CZJ Flektogon 20mm F2.8 on a Sony A99 (FF 24 Mpixels), center at left, upper left corner at right. All 100% crops, no sharpening, no CA correction.

F2.8:

F5.6:

F11:


PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2019 8:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Spokklocka wrote:
...
And for sure, if I decide to go for one of these oldies then it'll be the first relative deal that comes my way most likely. I don't expect to pay 80USD for anything this century but I also want to shoot a wide on my upcoming vacation : )


The Canon was CHF 200.-- a few years ago, a bit overpriced given its performace
The Konica was CHF 80.-- including an T3, an AR 3.5/35-70mm and some more stuff
The Minolta MC-X was CHF 150.--, about ten years ago, from a the leading photo shop in Zurich
The MD-III was about CHF 50.--, but it was in a really bad state and had to be cleaned thoroughly
The Minolta AF 2.8/20mm (like new) was CHF 180.-- including a lot of other stuff such as an MD 2.8/24 and an MC-X 1.2/58
The Nikkor and the Vivitar were for free
The Yashica was about CHF 180.-- back in 2015

...

Stephan


PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2019 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Gerald wrote:
The performance of a CZJ Flektogon 20mm F2.8 ...


Sadly, the Zeiss GDR (DDR) lenses rarely show up here in Switzerland. Obviously, being rather cheap, they were considered inferior and therefore avoided. It would be interesting to compare them side by side with the corresponding Japanese designs.

Stephan


PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2019 11:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
stevemark wrote:

Sadly, the Zeiss GDR (DDR) lenses rarely show up here in Switzerland. Obviously, being rather cheap, they were considered inferior and therefore avoided. It would be interesting to compare them side by side with the corresponding Japanese designs.

Stephan


On eBay, a Flektogon 20mm F2.8 in good condition costs about $400. Cheap? Maybe... About its performance, it is better, for example, than the Tamron SP 17mm F3.5, which is one of the best ultra wide-angle lens from the seventies.

In the article Distagon, Biogon and Hologon, Zeiss Oberkochen measured the performance of the Flektogon and found out that in a circle with a radius of 5mm, the Flektogon at F5.6 is as good as "otherwise excellent 4/21" (Voigtlander?) at F8.


https://lenspire.zeiss.com/photo/app/uploads/2018/02/en_CLB41_Nasse_LensNames_Distagon.pdf

Of course, Flektogon is no match for modern ultra wide-angle lenses, but I think it's among the best of its time.


PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2019 4:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
The Konica 21/4 is one I go to quite often.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/lightshow-photography/tags/konicahexanon214/


PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2019 6:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
This may be of interest to you:

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4405676


PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2019 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Spokklocka, as promised I've compared both the Minolta AF 20/2.8 and the Voigtlaender Color-Skopar 21/4 LTM on my A7R II.

Pictures show both lenses at F4. Shot RAW and converted/downsized without further manipulation in LR6. Pictures are clickable for best quality viewing.

Minolta:



Voigtlaender:



In extreme pixel peeping mode 100% on 4k UHD screen the Minolta lens seems to be the better one and offers additionally the faster F2.8 aperture.
If you like I can send you the RAW originals (also at other apertures) for your own judgement.

Anyway, for normal presentation (as the examples show) I would say that both lenses deliver more than good enough quality.
Stephans comparison already showed that the Minolta AF lens is one of the better ones in this class.
Post new topic   Reply to topic
Home   Manual Focus Lenses
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2