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SIGMA f5.6/400mm CAT lens
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2018 6:49 pm    Post subject: SIGMA f5.6/400mm CAT lens Reply with quote
[haven't found another thread with it here...]

Got the SIGMA f5.6/400mm CAT lens...









Not that shappy for a CAT lens actually... Wink


PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2018 11:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Excellent detail in that shot of the rain gutter. It has been my limited experience with Sigma mirrors that the older ones tend to be better than the newer ones. I own three Sigma 600s. Two old ones and one newer one. The old ones are definitely better than the newer one. I'm assuming that your 400/5.6 is also an older one.


PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2018 11:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
cooltouch wrote:
Excellent detail in that shot of the rain gutter. It has been my limited experience with Sigma mirrors that the older ones tend to be better than the newer ones. I own three Sigma 600s. Two old ones and one newer one. The old ones are definitely better than the newer one. I'm assuming that your 400/5.6 is also an older one.


Thanks, not sure, but I think it is the newer one (grey housing, not black as the older ones...), serial 10002xx (?)


PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 9:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
A friend brought my attention to the fact that there was already a thread about that mirror lens,
but the older, black one: http://forum.mflenses.com/sigma-400mm-f5-6-catadioptric-mirror-lens-t39033.html


PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
kds315* wrote:

Thanks, not sure, but I think it is the newer one (grey housing, not black as the older ones...), serial 10002xx (?)

In the informal survey I conducted, first of all, what became evident was that Sigma mirrors -- the 600s at least -- had some variability in quality from the factory that was independent of age. However, it did seem that with the later 600s, in the survey I conducted, there were more examples of lenses with softness issues than there were with the early lenses. Obviously, you got a good one. And it appears to me that it might be slightly better than the one in the link you provided.

I have found that -- with all my mirror shots, even with my Tamron 52BB -- that the lens benefits from some mild post processing, usually contrast enhancement and sometimes a bit of light sharpening.


PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
cooltouch wrote:
kds315* wrote:

Thanks, not sure, but I think it is the newer one (grey housing, not black as the older ones...), serial 10002xx (?)

In the informal survey I conducted, first of all, what became evident was that Sigma mirrors -- the 600s at least -- had some variability in quality from the factory that was independent of age. However, it did seem that with the later 600s, in the survey I conducted, there were more examples of lenses with softness issues than there were with the early lenses. Obviously, you got a good one. And it appears to me that it might be slightly better than the one in the link you provided.

I have found that -- with all my mirror shots, even with my Tamron 52BB -- that the lens benefits from some mild post processing, usually contrast enhancement and sometimes a bit of light sharpening.


Michael: I have the black one which is quite sharp. A friend here locally also found one that is equally as good. Based on just the few examples that I know (without haze or fungus issues), the 400mm line may be more consistent than the 600mm. I did pick up a 600mm but it was infected and didn't clean well.


PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
cooltouch wrote:
kds315* wrote:

Thanks, not sure, but I think it is the newer one (grey housing, not black as the older ones...), serial 10002xx (?)

In the informal survey I conducted,


Where did you conduct that survey?


PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2019 7:20 am    Post subject: triple lightpath=three times more precise? Reply with quote
Considering that incoming light travels back and forth inside, some increase in sample variation is to be expected. A tiny displacement of the front- especially if it has a slight refractive effect, any tilting of the mirrors, off centre deviations will detract from performance. There may also be constructional differences influencing how they will survive the inevitable wear & knocks suffered over a long life. (And of course atmospheric conditions may drastically reduce contrast & unstable support will detract from sharpness).

p.


PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2019 2:12 pm    Post subject: Re: triple lightpath=three times more precise? Reply with quote
paulhofseth wrote:
Considering that incoming light travels back and forth inside, some increase in sample variation is to be expected. A tiny displacement of the front- especially if it has a slight refractive effect, any tilting of the mirrors, off centre deviations will detract from performance. There may also be constructional differences influencing how they will survive the inevitable wear & knocks suffered over a long life. (And of course atmospheric conditions may drastically reduce contrast & unstable support will detract from sharpness).

p.


Yes, all that.


PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2019 4:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
woodrim wrote:
cooltouch wrote:
kds315* wrote:

Thanks, not sure, but I think it is the newer one (grey housing, not black as the older ones...), serial 10002xx (?)

In the informal survey I conducted,


Where did you conduct that survey?


Right here, back in 2015. Here's a link to the thread. I sort of coopted it on page two of the thread and discussions about IQ and lens serial numbers lasted for another two or three pages of the thread:

http://forum.mflenses.com/sigma-600-mirror-t71067,highlight,+sigma++mirror.html

BTW, last year, I believe it was, I bought another Sigma 600. Couldn't help myself. I bought it off eBay and it was cheap, about $60 as I recall. This was a very early one, and one thing I noticed with some surprise was that it is actually quite a bit smaller than my later one in EOS mount. Filter size is significantly smaller -- I don't recall offhand how much, but the lens overall is quite compact for a 600mm. I haven't shot with it much, but I did take it out for one outing with my Tamron 500. A friend and I traveled out to a wildlife preserve, hoping to get shots of some large birds, but the only ones I saw were probably 1000 meters away. At that distance, the shots I was getting with the Tarmon were no better than those I was getting with the Sigma, so that gives me some hope that this early model may actually be a good one. One thing i did notice about it was contrast was so-so. I wondered about this because the elements are fungus and haze free. But then I inspected them with a very strong light, and it revealed that they had a light film of dust coating them. So, I've been procrastinating. I'm not looking forward to completely dismantling the lens but that's what it's gonna take to get rid of the dust. I expect that once I've cleaned it, contrast will improve.


PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2019 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
cooltouch wrote:
woodrim wrote:
cooltouch wrote:
kds315* wrote:

Thanks, not sure, but I think it is the newer one (grey housing, not black as the older ones...), serial 10002xx (?)

In the informal survey I conducted,


Where did you conduct that survey?


Right here, back in 2015. Here's a link to the thread. I sort of coopted it on page two of the thread and discussions about IQ and lens serial numbers lasted for another two or three pages of the thread:

http://forum.mflenses.com/sigma-600-mirror-t71067,highlight,+sigma++mirror.html

BTW, last year, I believe it was, I bought another Sigma 600. Couldn't help myself. I bought it off eBay and it was cheap, about $60 as I recall. This was a very early one, and one thing I noticed with some surprise was that it is actually quite a bit smaller than my later one in EOS mount. Filter size is significantly smaller -- I don't recall offhand how much, but the lens overall is quite compact for a 600mm. I haven't shot with it much, but I did take it out for one outing with my Tamron 500. A friend and I traveled out to a wildlife preserve, hoping to get shots of some large birds, but the only ones I saw were probably 1000 meters away. At that distance, the shots I was getting with the Tarmon were no better than those I was getting with the Sigma, so that gives me some hope that this early model may actually be a good one. One thing i did notice about it was contrast was so-so. I wondered about this because the elements are fungus and haze free. But then I inspected them with a very strong light, and it revealed that they had a light film of dust coating them. So, I've been procrastinating. I'm not looking forward to completely dismantling the lens but that's what it's gonna take to get rid of the dust. I expect that once I've cleaned it, contrast will improve.


That was interesting reading; it's morning, so I'll have to go back and read more this evening when my eyes work better. After having seen many posts on the Sigma 600, my perception is that quality varies way too much or the lens easily falls out of collimation. Also, the inside seems much more subject to dust, haze, and fungus than other lenses of the same type.


PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2019 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
woodrim wrote:
cooltouch wrote:
woodrim wrote:
cooltouch wrote:
kds315* wrote:

Thanks, not sure, but I think it is the newer one (grey housing, not black as the older ones...), serial 10002xx (?)

In the informal survey I conducted,


Where did you conduct that survey?


Right here, back in 2015. Here's a link to the thread. I sort of coopted it on page two of the thread and discussions about IQ and lens serial numbers lasted for another two or three pages of the thread:

http://forum.mflenses.com/sigma-600-mirror-t71067,highlight,+sigma++mirror.html

BTW, last year, I believe it was, I bought another Sigma 600. Couldn't help myself. I bought it off eBay and it was cheap, about $60 as I recall. This was a very early one, and one thing I noticed with some surprise was that it is actually quite a bit smaller than my later one in EOS mount. Filter size is significantly smaller -- I don't recall offhand how much, but the lens overall is quite compact for a 600mm. I haven't shot with it much, but I did take it out for one outing with my Tamron 500. A friend and I traveled out to a wildlife preserve, hoping to get shots of some large birds, but the only ones I saw were probably 1000 meters away. At that distance, the shots I was getting with the Tarmon were no better than those I was getting with the Sigma, so that gives me some hope that this early model may actually be a good one. One thing i did notice about it was contrast was so-so. I wondered about this because the elements are fungus and haze free. But then I inspected them with a very strong light, and it revealed that they had a light film of dust coating them. So, I've been procrastinating. I'm not looking forward to completely dismantling the lens but that's what it's gonna take to get rid of the dust. I expect that once I've cleaned it, contrast will improve.


That was interesting reading; it's morning, so I'll have to go back and read more this evening when my eyes work better. After having seen many posts on the Sigma 600, my perception is that quality varies way too much or the lens easily falls out of collimation. Also, the inside seems much more subject to dust, haze, and fungus than other lenses of the same type.


I have both those lenses (400 + 600mm) Michael (newer types) and did not have those issues.


PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2019 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Since I'm guilty of sidetracking Klaus' 400mm thread, I'll post an image from mine. I think the Sigma 5.6/400 is a much better lens than the 600mm based on the few examples I am familiar - Klaus, mine, and a local friend. I bought mine because it was cheap but then found it to be surprisingly good. I rate it to be very close to the Tamron SP.

Already cropped some.



PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2019 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
woodrim, you have a knack for getting the very best out of mirror lenses. Nice shots!


PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2019 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Very nice ones Michael!


PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2019 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
woodrim wrote:

That was interesting reading; it's morning, so I'll have to go back and read more this evening when my eyes work better. After having seen many posts on the Sigma 600, my perception is that quality varies way too much or the lens easily falls out of collimation. Also, the inside seems much more subject to dust, haze, and fungus than other lenses of the same type.


I dismantled my late EOS mount 600, hoping I might be able to find the problem, and I didn't. One thing I learned from it was that it is very solidly constructed. So I doubt it that the 600s easily fall out of collimation. I suspect that some of them have slight errors in the way the mirror is ground. It doesn't take much. And I also wouldn't think the inside is prone to gathering dust. This old 600 I have with the very slight coating of dust is probably almost 40 years old. And who knows how it was stored during much of that time?

Thanks, Klaus!


PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2019 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ive been offered a Sigma (supertele 600mm). How to find out if it's an early or late model, or does that matter with a Sigma 600 ? It's an f8, 600mm, Practika bayonet but supplied with a Sony A7 ll adapter. It is absolutely mint with not a single mark on it (inside and out)

Thanks tao2


PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2019 1:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Early Sigma 600s had s/n's in the 200000 to 300000 range but there were a few with s/n's in the 900000 range. Later Sigma 600s had s/n numbers ranging over 1 milllion, typically 1M to 1.3M.

As for quality, there was some variability across the range of s/n's. It would appear, based on the small sampling we conducted, that there is less variability with the early ones than with the later ones. It also appears that the ones that don't perform well are in the minority. So from an odds perspective, odds are that the one you're considering will be a good one, but there's always that chance that it won't be.

If I were in your position, I would try one of two things: either take a digital camera with me where I can inspect images at a fairly high degree of magnification, or secure a return policy from the seller in case it doesn't meet up with your requirements.

One last comment I feel I must make, if you've never shot with one of these big mirrors before, it is essential that you follow good technique. Use a stout tripod, set your camera's self-timer to 10 seconds for the photos, and if your camera has Live View with focus peaking, use it. If your camera allows the image to be magnified, use this feature as well, to confirm focus peaking's accuracy -- because there are frequent situations when its accuracy is not so good.


PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2019 11:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
cooltouch wrote:
Early Sigma 600s had s/n's in the 200000 to 300000 range but there were a few with s/n's in the 900000 range. Later Sigma 600s had s/n numbers ranging over 1 milllion, typically 1M to 1.3M.

As for quality, there was some variability across the range of s/n's. It would appear, based on the small sampling we conducted, that there is less variability with the early ones than with the later ones. It also appears that the ones that don't perform well are in the minority. So from an odds perspective, odds are that the one you're considering will be a good one, but there's always that chance that it won't be.

If I were in your position, I would try one of two things: either take a digital camera with me where I can inspect images at a fairly high degree of magnification, or secure a return policy from the seller in case it doesn't meet up with your requirements.

One last comment I feel I must make, if you've never shot with one of these big mirrors before, it is essential that you follow good technique. Use a stout tripod, set your camera's self-timer to 10 seconds for the photos, and if your camera has Live View with focus peaking, use it. If your camera allows the image to be magnified, use this feature as well, to confirm focus peaking's accuracy -- because there are frequent situations when its accuracy is not so good.


Thanks, Cooltouch. Like 1 small


PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2019 1:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
HI TA

Here are a few shots of my copy of the 600mm f/8.0 Sigma mirror - what I have always assumed to be an "early" model. I haven't had the chance to test it completely, but it appears to be close to my Canon 500mm f/8 FD mirror, but not as good as my Russian 3M-6A 500mm f/8. Note the whole kit shown below in the last pic with metal hood, case, lens cap and rear mount filters.

-Paul








PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2019 2:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Looks just like the one I bought way back in 1984. I wish I still had it.


PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2019 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
pdccameras wrote:
... Russian 3M-6A 500mm f/8. [/url]


The 6A is f/6.3. Did you mean the 5A? I have the 3M-6A and yes, very good.


PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2019 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Yes, typo, I have the 6A f/6.3 not f/8. It's very sharp, but the first one I rec'd from the seller (in Russia) was defective, didn't focus to infinity. He replaced it quickly with the one I have now. It's clearly sharper than the Canon FD and the Sigma 600mm, but I still haven't gotten my technique to your level!

Best,

Paul
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