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On a Topcor kick lately. . .
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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2023 6:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
frenched wrote:
Sorry gang, I dug up this old thread because I miss my Topcors. For some reason I gave them up and it was a dumb idea. These days I use modern Zeiss glass in the studio — and they are superb. But years of real-world shooting has proven the old Topcors still gives the new Zeiss stuff a run for the money. Don’t know the market for them, but if you can find some RE’s at a good price then pick them up and never let them go.


The prices of topcor 1.4 have reached the Zeiss Sony 1.8 so in this case what would you choose nowadays? Same thing happens in 35mm, there's 25mm on the market for 450€$ but I pass


PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2023 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
kiddo wrote:
frenched wrote:
Sorry gang, I dug up this old thread because I miss my Topcors. For some reason I gave them up and it was a dumb idea. These days I use modern Zeiss glass in the studio — and they are superb. But years of real-world shooting has proven the old Topcors still gives the new Zeiss stuff a run for the money. Don’t know the market for them, but if you can find some RE’s at a good price then pick them up and never let them go.


The prices of topcor 1.4 have reached the Zeiss Sony 1.8 so in this case what would you choose nowadays? Same thing happens in 35mm, there's 25mm on the market for 450€$ but I pass


The Topcors most probably keep their value. My favorite Topcor so far is the RE 100/2.8.


PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2023 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I might agree with you, but in term of better election for using daily, what would be the better choice? For myself, I'm comfortable with vintage lenses without regrets (untill my sight would allow meof course).


PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2023 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
kiddo wrote:
I might agree with you, but in term of better election for using daily, what would be the better choice? For myself, I'm comfortable with vintage lenses without regrets (untill my sight would allow meof course).


I'm currently using the Techart LM-EA7 adapter, which is great. My eyesight is still good, but the AF makes focusing a lot quicker.


PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2023 6:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Guess that at this point and with inflation all over the globe, Topcors have reached collectors/cult status.

Been hunting for a 58 1.4 in the EU for a while and bought two for 370€ each (one being the black version). Both need CLA which will make them close to 500€. Certainly this is crazy value wise when I bought a Konica 57mm 1.4 for 70€ not long ago as well.

Would love to find a 100 2.8 but those do not trade for less than 200€ these days.

To sum it up I think these lenses already transitioned from great value/unknown to collectors/cult ones.


PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2023 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
pabeu wrote:
Guess that at this point and with inflation all over the globe, Topcors have reached collectors/cult status.

Been hunting for a 58 1.4 in the EU for a while and bought two for 370€ each (one being the black version). Both need CLA which will make them close to 500€. Certainly this is crazy value wise when I bought a Konica 57mm 1.4 for 70€ not long ago as well.

Would love to find a 100 2.8 but those do not trade for less than 200€ these days.

To sum it up I think these lenses already transitioned from great value/unknown to collectors/cult ones.


Yeah, it's all about supply and demand I guess. Thanks to the Internet many people know they're quite lovely lenses, but the supply is quite small.


PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2023 11:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
kiddo wrote:
I might agree with you, but in term of better election for using daily, what would be the better choice? .


For art, Instagram or a science project?

For me, daily use is a run-of-the-mill Canon 70-300. Good enough. But that’s AF so off-topic here. When I want to deliver something “real” I choose something appropriate, and that’s always an MF prime of some sort or vintage. There is no “one size fits all”. Think of a painter and his/her choice of brushes/knives, whatever. It’s been said da Vinci used his thumb to paint the eyebrows of the Mona Lisa. Whatever works.


PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2023 7:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
kiddo wrote:

The prices of topcor 1.4 have reached the Zeiss Sony 1.8 so in this case what would you choose nowadays? Same thing happens in 35mm, there's 25mm on the market for 450€$ but I pass


kiddo wrote:
I might agree with you, but in term of better election for using daily, what would be the better choice? For myself, I'm comfortable with vintage lenses without regrets (untill my sight would allow meof course).


When it comes to detail resolution and contrast at a given aperture, the Sony Zeiss ZA 1.8/55 of course is much better than the Topcor RE 1.4/58 (I have used both lenses on A7R and A7RII cameras). The Topcor however may outlive the Sony Zeiss, since it has no internal motors for aperture and focusing. The Topcor is a "character lens", and not a "high res lens", at least not at apertures between f1.4 and f2.8!

S


PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2023 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Almost all of the portraits I'm shooting are very close people , and most of the times I'm happy with the softness of most of the 1.4 lenses I'm using (no little kids included,so subjects are cooperative helping to shoot thin dof); these are the daily shots I'm taking ,nothing for instag or internet, just for personal use, so i do look for a character lens . Sharpness wide open I find enough on most of these oldies , and I'm not really curious how better that modern Zeiss would do , but definitely my case it's not like it would fit most users at all.


PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2023 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
kiddo wrote:
Almost all of the portraits I'm shooting are very close people , and most of the times I'm happy with the softness of most of the 1.4 lenses I'm using (no little kids included,so subjects are cooperative helping to shoot thin dof); these are the daily shots I'm taking ,nothing for instag or internet, just for personal use, so i do look for a character lens . Sharpness wide open I find enough on most of these oldies , and I'm not really curious how better that modern Zeiss would do , but definitely my case it's not like it would fit most users at all.


When it comes to portraits, I absolutely agree with you. A lens with similar properties as the Topcor 1.4/58 is the Minolta AR or MC-I / -Ii (which actually is closer to 60mm). Much cheaper than the Topcor, however ...


PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2023 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I do have Minolta 50mm 1.4 PG (I guess) , I assume you're referring to the 58mm 1.2 that comes close to topcor or the 1.4? I understand the 1.4 is inferior to the 50mm in contrast, colors and sharpness. The 1.2 rokkor I see goes for the same price as topcor (it's so beautiful ) and it might be better suited character speaking.


PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2023 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
stevemark wrote:
kiddo wrote:
Almost all of the portraits I'm shooting are very close people , and most of the times I'm happy with the softness of most of the 1.4 lenses I'm using (no little kids included,so subjects are cooperative helping to shoot thin dof); these are the daily shots I'm taking ,nothing for instag or internet, just for personal use, so i do look for a character lens . Sharpness wide open I find enough on most of these oldies , and I'm not really curious how better that modern Zeiss would do , but definitely my case it's not like it would fit most users at all.


When it comes to portraits, I absolutely agree with you. A lens with similar properties as the Topcor 1.4/58 is the Minolta AR or MC-I / -Ii (which actually is closer to 60mm). Much cheaper than the Topcor, however ...


If you mean the Minolta 58 f/1.4 then I don’t completely agree. The Topcor 58 f/1.4 is closer in bokeh and rendering to the Minolta 58 f/1.2


PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2023 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
stevemark wrote:


When it comes to detail resolution and contrast at a given aperture, the Sony Zeiss ZA 1.8/55 of course is much better than the Topcor RE 1.4/58 (I have used both lenses on A7R and A7RII cameras). The Topcor however may outlive the Sony Zeiss, since it has no internal motors for aperture and focusing. The Topcor is a "character lens", and not a "high res lens", at least not at apertures between f1.4 and f2.8!

S


Can any spherical lens compete with a modern aspherical lens at f/1.4-f/2.8? The issue of spherical aberrations as far as I know was not solved until aspherical elements. Nobody not even Leica could design a spherical lens without them. As for resolution. Stopped down the Topcors have massive resolution. Some of their designs had no serious competition for decades. The old 25mm would out resolve the offerings from both Zeiss and Leica at the time.

Here is an interesting analysis of many lenses around that focal length:

https://fotosaurier.de/?p=2153

The topcor was at the top for decades. It exceeded the offering from Zeiss until the Zeiss Batis 25mm lens, which uses many special glass types including 4 aspherical glass elements and came 50 years later. It beat the Leica R 24mm, which was a design Leica bought from Minolta. Not until the Olympus 24 came at a much later date was the Topcor beaten. That old Topcor can resolve well on a modern 60MP FF sensor. It was designed in 1965. We don't even know who designed these lenses. If it was a German design the name of the designer would be recorded in the history books.

This design is consistent throughout their line. Every single one of their lenses has massive resolution capabilities at f/8-f/11 even by modern standards. Also, look at how low the CA were for that 25mm. At the time it was a unicorn. This is also consistent with the Topcor lenses. They aren't APO designs, but they can get very close. Stopped down I have many modern lenses with worse CA than the old Topcors. That is mind blowing. Their color correction is also top of the line. They are extremely well color corrected and accurate. I tested some Topcors against some Leica R lenses that I have and I won't bore you with all the details, but when it came to color the Leica R were on the yellow/warm side while the Topcors in comparison were more cooler, but also color was more accurate to the scene. Both had very strong macro and micro contrast and color saturation and were pretty much equal, which says a lot about the Topcors.

All the topcors have good to excellent flare control. They were made in a short period of time and they are pretty much color matched. You don't have to go through hell trying to adjust colors between focal lengths or try to find lenes produced around the same time period. Mechanical construction is second to none. All the lenses are a good physical size and very light weight in comparison to the competition.

Overall, when it comes to judging them in several categories, they may not be the top in any single category, but they are in the top at very good to excellent in so many categories that they are the best-balanced designs I own. They are unicorns when it comes to color correction.

As for prices. I knew this day would eventually come. I bought as many as I could for bargain prices over the years. At the prices today it is difficult to spend that kind of money for 1960-1970 designs. They are still cheaper than Leica and less well known. You can still find deals if you are patient as Topcor is not as well-known as Leica or Zeiss.


PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2023 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
There's so much chatter about this-and-that technical stuff mere mortals don't understand. Bottom line, image quality is an elusive goal. It is up to the artist to impart perfection where imperfection prevails always. Is there a perfect lens? Yes, I'm sure -- somewhere, someday. Can any of us afford it? No, I'm sure of that. Stanley Kubrick commissioned Zeiss to make an insanely fast sharp lens for one of his films where a scene had to be shot only by candlelight. Only three were made. Kubrick kept one, Zeiss kept one, and the other is in the Smithsonian Museum.

Just sayin'.


PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2023 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
frenched wrote:
There's so much chatter about this-and-that technical stuff mere mortals don't understand. Bottom line, image quality is an elusive goal. It is up to the artist to impart perfection where imperfection prevails always. Is there a perfect lens? Yes, I'm sure -- somewhere, someday. Can any of us afford it? No, I'm sure of that. Stanley Kubrick commissioned Zeiss to make an insanely fast sharp lens for one of his films where a scene had to be shot only by candlelight. Only three were made. Kubrick kept one, Zeiss kept one, and the other is in the Smithsonian Museum.

Just sayin'.


There is no magic. Impression of sharpness comes from color and contrast especially at lower magnification and longer viewing distance. The rest is a bunch of compromises based on what can be done within budget, materials, skills, etc. The goal is always to correct aberrations and compromises have to be made. Curvature is the piece that is the biggest wildcard especially when it comes to complex curvature like mustache. Then you can end up with some interesting results of what is in focus vs out of focus. There is more to it than that, but that's my take on it in the most simplified fashion.


PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2023 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
cbass wrote:

There is no magic. Impression of sharpness comes from color and contrast especially at lower magnification and longer viewing distance. The rest is a bunch of compromises based on what can be done within budget, materials, skills, etc.


My point exactly. And how is that accomplished?

Thank you.


PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2023 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
cbass wrote:
stevemark wrote:


When it comes to detail resolution and contrast at a given aperture, the Sony Zeiss ZA 1.8/55 of course is much better than the Topcor RE 1.4/58 (I have used both lenses on A7R and A7RII cameras). The Topcor however may outlive the Sony Zeiss, since it has no internal motors for aperture and focusing. The Topcor is a "character lens", and not a "high res lens", at least not at apertures between f1.4 and f2.8!

S


Can any spherical lens compete with a modern aspherical lens at f/1.4-f/2.8? The issue of spherical aberrations as far as I know was not solved until aspherical elements. Nobody not even Leica could design a spherical lens without them. As for resolution. Stopped down the Topcors have massive resolution. Some of their designs had no serious competition for decades. The old 25mm would out resolve the offerings from both Zeiss and Leica at the time.

Here is an interesting analysis of many lenses around that focal length:

https://fotosaurier.de/?p=2153

The topcor was at the top for decades. It exceeded the offering from Zeiss until the Zeiss Batis 25mm lens, which uses many special glass types including 4 aspherical glass elements and came 50 years later. It beat the Leica R 24mm, which was a design Leica bought from Minolta. Not until the Olympus 24 came at a much later date was the Topcor beaten. That old Topcor can resolve well on a modern 60MP FF sensor. It was designed in 1965. We don't even know who designed these lenses. If it was a German design the name of the designer would be recorded in the history books.

This design is consistent throughout their line. Every single one of their lenses has massive resolution capabilities at f/8-f/11 even by modern standards. Also, look at how low the CA were for that 25mm. At the time it was a unicorn. This is also consistent with the Topcor lenses. They aren't APO designs, but they can get very close. Stopped down I have many modern lenses with worse CA than the old Topcors. That is mind blowing. Their color correction is also top of the line. They are extremely well color corrected and accurate. I tested some Topcors against some Leica R lenses that I have and I won't bore you with all the details, but when it came to color the Leica R were on the yellow/warm side while the Topcors in comparison were more cooler, but also color was more accurate to the scene. Both had very strong macro and micro contrast and color saturation and were pretty much equal, which says a lot about the Topcors.

All the topcors have good to excellent flare control. They were made in a short period of time and they are pretty much color matched. You don't have to go through hell trying to adjust colors between focal lengths or try to find lenes produced around the same time period. Mechanical construction is second to none. All the lenses are a good physical size and very light weight in comparison to the competition.

Overall, when it comes to judging them in several categories, they may not be the top in any single category, but they are in the top at very good to excellent in so many categories that they are the best-balanced designs I own. They are unicorns when it comes to color correction.

As for prices. I knew this day would eventually come. I bought as many as I could for bargain prices over the years. At the prices today it is difficult to spend that kind of money for 1960-1970 designs. They are still cheaper than Leica and less well known. You can still find deals if you are patient as Topcor is not as well-known as Leica or Zeiss.


very interesting results, but there are no f11 results for zeiss c/y on corner unfortunately


PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2023 10:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Guys, you’ve got a lot of words swirling around. Please post some results. As they say, the proof is in the pudding.

I dared to. No one else did. And this was years ago. Waiting.. .


PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2023 10:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
frenched wrote:
Guys, you’ve got a lot of words swirling around. Please post some results. As they say, the proof is in the pudding.

I dared to. No one else did. And this was years ago. Waiting.. .


Sure. However, the lighting conditions will make or break the image and not the lens. The lens transmits light. The sensor/film records the transmitted light. Garbage in will be garbage out no matter how good the lens.

From the 58 f/1.4











PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2023 11:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
From the 58 Macro





From the 35 f/2.8



PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2023 5:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Very nice results Cbass!


PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2023 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
caspert79 wrote:
Very nice results Cbass!


I probably already posted these images in other threads. I have more recent ones but I don’t upload to Flickr anymore after their limit and rule changes.


PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2023 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
cbass wrote:
caspert79 wrote:
Very nice results Cbass!


I probably already posted these images in other threads. I have more recent ones but I don’t upload to Flickr anymore after their limit and rule changes.


Yeah, I pay for my Flickr now, but I use it a lot.


PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2023 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
caspert79 wrote:
cbass wrote:
caspert79 wrote:
Very nice results Cbass!


I probably already posted these images in other threads. I have more recent ones but I don’t upload to Flickr anymore after their limit and rule changes.


Yeah, I pay for my Flickr now, but I use it a lot.


Since I am less interested in sharing my photos publicly I put the money toward my own NAS that runs photo software with albums similar to Flickr and a lot more features.
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