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Telagon Berlin 1:5 500mm on Canon 6D - is it possible?
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2019 10:55 pm    Post subject: Telagon Berlin 1:5 500mm on Canon 6D - is it possible? Reply with quote

Hello and thank you for reading my 'desperate cry for help' post.

I inherited some old Telagon Berlin 1:5 500mm telephoto lens and I am struggling to find a way to mount it on my Canon 6D camera.
I was hoping to use this manual lens for shots of the moon or birds.

Someone mentioned that my lens was equipped with a Praktica mount (?) and recommended the M42 adapter.
I ordered the adapter online, and after impatient wait, I have just received the adapter a moment ago only to find that... sadly, it did not fit the thread of my lens (the diameter of the threaded tube on the lens, is around 33 mm)

I then called my local photo store, that used to sell some vintage camera gear, for any clue and help. Well, they think my lens has a mount for the Russian Kiev camera and they suggest to find the M32 mount adapter but they are saying it might be hard, if not impossible to come across one (!) Sad

While searching the net I came across this forum and I am really hoping that with your help I can find the adapter so that I could enjoy this lens on my Canon DSLR.

Thank you again for checking this post and for any, any suggestions and help!

Best,
Rob


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2019 11:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello and welcome!

Interesting lens. I think it is a re-badged Astro Berlin. See here:

https://www.photo.net/discuss/threads/need-help-identifying-this-lense-berlin-telagon-500-f5.240587/


I am not sure about the mount with the 32mm. It could be some kind of proprietary thread that was used to mate with standard mounts, ie. M42, Nikon, Exakta, etc. It could also be something that used to mount the lens to a motion picture camera.

It's definitely not Russian Kiev - those were rangefinders with Contax/Nikon S bayonet mounts. They might have been thinking of Russian FED cameras, which had an Leica Thread Mount (LTM) of 39mm, but that would be larger than your 32mm mount.

Another thought is that the thread mount is for a reflex housing, like the Visoflex.

Finally, another thread mount I can think of, that is close to 32mm is the old Argus C33 "Brick" mount which was 33mm.


Best of luck - it would be great to see some images from your lens - they are quite highly regarded.


paul


PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2019 12:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Paul,

Many thanks for trying to help, for taking your time to reply and for all your suggestions.
I ran to my garage workshop and grabbed the caliper and re-measured the outside diameter of the threaded mount tube.
I apologize as I should have it earlier, but I did not expect so many thread variations and options here (please forgive my ignorance).
Obviously, I need to humbly learn more and accept the fact that there are many thread sizes and types of mounts in the world of manual lenses... Anyway, the outside diameter of the threaded mount tube turned out to be 33mm (and not 32mm as I mistakenly stated previously when quickly measuring it with a ruler).

Would that mean now that this lens might accommodate the Argus C33 "Brick" mount perhaps, and that I should be looking for this kind of adapter? I already did search for this briefly, and found something like this:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Argus-C33-Lenses-onto-Canon-EOS-M-mount-Adapter-/182995664215

However, this is for the EOS-M mount, which I understand would not work for my Canon 6D mount...

Anyway, if you came across any link that points to the Argus C33 > Canon EOS mount adapter, that would be wondeful!
Needless to add, I will keep looking as well...

Great to hear that this might be a nice lens. This is why I would love so much to make it work with my camera and finally test it...

There is a lot of dust on the glass elements, but the lens seems to be built with accessibility in mind and it looks like I can detach the lens' modules and easily access each piece of glass to clean them. Well, this will be the next stage, when/if I manage to mount the lens first...

Thanks again, Paul


PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2019 1:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Impressive lens definetelly; the metal wheel it is supose to use it to carry the lens? My tamron 200-500 looks smaller that this bazooka,and is f6.9 only. Very interested to see some pics of it...


PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2019 1:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Happy to try to help, Rob.

Unfortunately, you wouldn't be able to get an Argus C3 -> Canon EOS adapter since the Argus flange focal distance is 42mm and the Canon EOS' is 44mm. This means that the Canon camera is thicker than the Argus, so a lens designed for the Argus could not physically be mounted close enough to the Canon's sensor to achieve focus at infinity. That is why the adapters you found were for mirrorless cameras that are very thin bodied.

I really don't think that the lens was made for the Argus rangefinder, that was the closest mount I could think of that was close to 32/33mm - I am sorry if I misled you. Also the C3 was a rangefinder camera, so focussing the lens would have been a challenge to say the least!

This is real mystery to me!

Best,

paul


PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2019 1:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Happy to try to help, Rob.

Unfortunately, you wouldn't be able to get an Argus C3 -> Canon EOS adapter since the Argus flange focal distance is 42mm and the Canon EOS' is 44mm. This means that the Canon camera is thicker than the Argus, so a lens designed for the Argus could not physically be mounted close enough to the Canon's sensor to achieve focus at infinity. That is why the adapters you found were for mirrorless cameras that are very thin bodied.

I really don't think that the lens was made for the Argus rangefinder, that was the closest mount I could think of that was close to 32/33mm - I am sorry if I misled you. Also the C3 was a rangefinder camera, so focussing the lens would have been a challenge to say the least!

This is real mystery to me!

Best,

paul


PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2019 1:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If focusing to infinity is an issue, then I understand I would need to forget about shots of the moon Sad

However, what about using it for at least taking pictures of birds? I get cardinals, blue jays, catbirds, robins, orioles, finches, woodpeckers etc. coming at close range to my bird feeders (~ 15-20 meters). If I could somehow find an adapter that would allow me to mount that lens at least for this purpose, I would be happy enough. With that lens and that distance I would be able to fill the whole frame...

Oh well, hopefully I am not asking for too much. There must be some trick, some adapter or some way to make it work... or shall I rather forget about it?

Best,
Rob


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2019 1:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi kiddo,

FYI, when you rotate the metal wheel, the front of the lens moves forward/backward, so I understand it's purpose is to control the focus...

Best,
Rob


PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2019 3:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

By all means don't give up on it. I am pretty sure the lens was made to fit a bunch of classic cameras. The first step is to see how far behind the lens you can form an image. Put the lens on a tripod facing out a window and aim it at a far off target. Focus the lens at infinity. Next hold a white piece of paper behind the lens at the mount end. Move the paper back and forth until you get a sharp image on the paper. The distance you measure from the flat part on the lens mount to the paper will be the thickness of the adapter you need. Hopefully this distance will be longer than the 44mm flange distance of your EOS camera.

Once you have this figured out, it shouldn't be too tough to cobble together a simple adapter out of T-mount fittings and other odds and ends.

Keep us up-dated!

Paul


PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2019 3:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://www.ebay.com/itm/M32-x0-75-Female-To-M42-x1-Male-thread-Screw-Camera-Lens-Mount-Adapter-M32-M42-/183490605953

This might be worth a try...

It would definitely be worth using a pair of vernier calipers and a thread pitch gauge first to find out the exact dimensions you're dealing with. A local engineering shop might be able to help if you don't have those items yourself.


PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2019 3:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rob_lenses wrote:
Hi kiddo,

FYI, when you rotate the metal wheel, the front of the lens moves forward/backward, so I understand it's purpose is to control the focus...

Best,
Rob


Thnx for the info, and indeed it's very interesting mechanism that helps a lot in such a long FL. This is the best place on earth to get the right info you need to make it work,so i'm waiting to see the results very soon.


PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2019 4:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/M32-x0-75-Female-To-M42-x1-Male-thread-Screw-Camera-Lens-Mount-Adapter-M32-M42-/183490605953

This might be worth a try...

It would definitely be worth using a pair of vernier calipers and a thread pitch gauge first to find out the exact dimensions you're dealing with. A local engineering shop might be able to help if you don't have those items yourself.


Thank you, I did already measure the outer diameter of the threaded tube (at the crest) and got 33 mm.
Not able to measure the thread at the root as the thread is very fine. I assume that the M32 adapter is supposedly to be 32mm.
I hope it will fit the thread on my lens...

Well, without too many other options available, and other suggestions posted, I will follow your advice and order that adapter to give it a try.

I will post the updates once I get the adapter.

Best,
Rob


PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2019 6:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its a Tewe, which was a lens maker in Berlin. Telagon was one of their model/brand names. Its like when Zeiss calls something a Sonnar.

I have a Tewe, a 400/5, rebranded by its US importer Birns&Sawyer (thank you Klaus!)

Mine is, thankfully, a T-mount, so adapters are easy.

Most of these Astro Berlin and Tewe and Kilfitt and Piesker and Century monster lenses were meant for cine cameras. That was their main market. Birns&Sawyer, at one time Tewe's US importer, supplied Hollywood, and it still does.

Like most of these specialty-professional lens makers (a 500/5 in those days was certainly not meant for the general public), they supplied many custom mounts by factory order. I suspect this 32mm mount was meant for a cine camera setup of some sort. Its not any normal still camera mount, either 35mm or medium format.

Its certainly not meant for an Argus C-series, in spite of the thread, as the Argus has no way to focus this thing, and the Argus was a cheap consumer camera. This was an expensive, professional lens in its time.

It looks like the lens mount is removable. This is typical of this sort of lens as they were meant to be easily adapted, albeit only by the factory or a dealers technician, to all sorts of camera systems. My Tewe has such a removable mount (and that is itself a removable mount!), but mine seems to be a different and probably later system. Anyway, I doubt anyone today has a stock of Tewe mount adapters of whatever version.

The first thing here is to figure out the back focus, which is a more important matter than the thread - getting a thread adapter made, to M42 or M39 for instance, is quite easy. Any machinist with a lathe can do that. But if the back focus is too short its not going to be so easy. Pauls (pdcameras) methods are correct. Also, learning the back focus is a clue to what sort of odd camera this was meant for.

Another thing to worry about with such a narrow mount as 32mm is vignetting, especially on a full frame like Canon 6D. The only way to check that is to rig a home-made adapter. Tape and plumbing hardware.


PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 5:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

luisalegria wrote:
Its a Tewe, which was a lens maker in Berlin. Telagon was one of their model/brand names. Its like when Zeiss calls something a Sonnar.

I have a Tewe, a 400/5, rebranded by its US importer Birns&Sawyer (thank you Klaus!)

Mine is, thankfully, a T-mount, so adapters are easy.

Most of these Astro Berlin and Tewe and Kilfitt and Piesker and Century monster lenses were meant for cine cameras. That was their main market. Birns&Sawyer, at one time Tewe's US importer, supplied Hollywood, and it still does.

Like most of these specialty-professional lens makers (a 500/5 in those days was certainly not meant for the general public), they supplied many custom mounts by factory order. I suspect this 32mm mount was meant for a cine camera setup of some sort. Its not any normal still camera mount, either 35mm or medium format.

Its certainly not meant for an Argus C-series, in spite of the thread, as the Argus has no way to focus this thing, and the Argus was a cheap consumer camera. This was an expensive, professional lens in its time.

It looks like the lens mount is removable. This is typical of this sort of lens as they were meant to be easily adapted, albeit only by the factory or a dealers technician, to all sorts of camera systems. My Tewe has such a removable mount (and that is itself a removable mount!), but mine seems to be a different and probably later system. Anyway, I doubt anyone today has a stock of Tewe mount adapters of whatever version.

The first thing here is to figure out the back focus, which is a more important matter than the thread - getting a thread adapter made, to M42 or M39 for instance, is quite easy. Any machinist with a lathe can do that. But if the back focus is too short its not going to be so easy. Pauls (pdcameras) methods are correct. Also, learning the back focus is a clue to what sort of odd camera this was meant for.

Another thing to worry about with such a narrow mount as 32mm is vignetting, especially on a full frame like Canon 6D. The only way to check that is to rig a home-made adapter. Tape and plumbing hardware.


Thanks to you, Luisalegria and to Klaus, for all the fascinating info and for the priceless advice that the mount can be detached. I have managed to unscrew that mount. However, the question now remains what to do next. I wish there was the mount/adapter still available that I could use to replace mine and to make it fit my Canon DSRL. Yes, custom-machining is an option (and I am afraid it will not come cheap) but I would have to know the exact specifications of the custom adapter they would be machining.
And I will re-read your post very carefully again and again to understand and figure out the back focus issue etc.

BTW, I also took apart the rest of the lens, as I will need to slowly prepare for its cleanup (but this is yet another topic - how to properly clean up the glass elements - and I am sure that this topic has been covered in this forum if I keep searching).

Anyway, the major challenge for now is fitting the lens onto my camera... Sad

Best,
Rob


PS: Rotating one of the black rings reveals some kind of slot (as shown on one of the pics). Is it for some kind of filter perhaps? Thank you


PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 5:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote




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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 5:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What size is the thread shown last photo? Here's hoping 42mm, the standard T-mount...


PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 5:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

visualopsins wrote:
What size is the thread shown last photo? Here's hoping 42mm, the standard T-mount...


Hello,

I just measured with a vernier caliper and the diameter of the threaded tube is ~64.88 mm...

Is it good or bad news? Thanks!



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Excellent photos!

Yes, the slot is for a rear filter. This was a common feature in these sorts of lens.

The filter was usually in a threadless ring, and often was a standard size, a "Series" filter. I can't tell what size yours is. I believe mine takes a Series VII, I haven't used that feature. Or it could be a proprietary size.

Your mount system is very much like mine it turns out. The fat aluminum block is indeed the replaceable part.

Cleaning the lens itself is quite easy. But don't clean unless you have to. As you see it is remarkably simple, a single cemented "group", again this is typical of this sort of lens. Blow the dust off or use a brush, a stiff artists type works well. Be thorough, as dust can lead to scratches when you polish. If there is haze or fungus, damp a clean paper towel with pure alcohol (there are other substances to use but that has always served me well) and carefully polish it. Don't over-polish as the old lens coatings on these things could be fragile. Its common to find them with spotty coatings. That is not a big deal, especially on such a simple lens, but polishing can make it worse.


PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

luisalegria wrote:
Excellent photos!

Yes, the slot is for a rear filter. This was a common feature in these sorts of lens.

The filter was usually in a threadless ring, and often was a standard size, a "Series" filter. I can't tell what size yours is. I believe mine takes a Series VII, I haven't used that feature. Or it could be a proprietary size.

Your mount system is very much like mine it turns out. The fat aluminum block is indeed the replaceable part.

Cleaning the lens itself is quite easy. But don't clean unless you have to. As you see it is remarkably simple, a single cemented "group", again this is typical of this sort of lens. Blow the dust off or use a brush, a stiff artists type works well. Be thorough, as dust can lead to scratches when you polish. If there is haze or fungus, damp a clean paper towel with pure alcohol (there are other substances to use but that has always served me well) and carefully polish it. Don't over-polish as the old lens coatings on these things could be fragile. Its common to find them with spotty coatings. That is not a big deal, especially on such a simple lens, but polishing can make it worse.


Sorry, just took the photos quickly with a cellphone, without paying too much attention to quality. Each and every moment counts as this lens sits idly, abandoned, while it's supposed to be played with and providing fun. But it looks like we are moving forward and the fact that the aluminum block is replaceable gives me some hope again... If only I could get the proper block that fits my camera <sigh>...

With the lens cleaning the same story as with my old 12" Dobsonian telescope mirror that I just bought second-hand: cottom webs with pure alcohol floating above the submerged lens, barely touching it, without the risk of scratching it - thanks for the tip, I will surely be very careful when I get to that part...

Anyway, here are the updated pics with more specs - if someone could help by parting away with that adapter (or adapters) or at least point me where I could buy them I would be a happy guy Smile Thanks a lot, folks!




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