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MartinV
Joined: 09 May 2013 Posts: 67
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Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:13 am Post subject: What did I get - CZJ 5cm Sonnar LTM? |
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MartinV wrote:
Hi, I recently got this lens:
I'm guessing it's an early postwar lens? Made in Jena when it was under Russian control? Can anyone comment on that based on the serial number? I hope it is not a fake - seems somewhat different from J3-s, has small m on distance scale, matching stamped numbers on rear optical block, etc.
Seems it has had a rough life, rings are misaligned and some of the screws are not original. Aside from nice bubbles in the glass it seems to have a pretty obvious fungus problem
(there's more of it than is visible in this image, pretty much all around the rear elements)
I guess I should have it serviced to see if it can be cleaned up and put together a little better. Any particular precautions? I understand it is likely to have soft coatings on the inner elements and that the front name ring has a set screw so it can't simply be unscrewed from the front without taking more things apart? The actual fungus seems to be towards the rear, though. |
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tb_a
Joined: 26 Jan 2010 Posts: 3678 Location: Austria
Expire: 2019-08-28
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Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:47 am Post subject: |
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tb_a wrote:
Here are the serial numbers/years: http://camera-wiki.org/wiki/Carl_Zeiss_serial_numbers
Obviously it's a mid/end war production. _________________ Thomas Bernardy
Manual focus lenses mainly from Minolta, Pentax, Voigtlaender, Leitz, Topcon and from Russia (too many to be listed here). |
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stevemark
Joined: 29 Apr 2011 Posts: 3751 Location: Switzerland
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Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:59 am Post subject: Re: What did I get - CZJ 5cm Sonnar LTM? |
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stevemark wrote:
MartinV wrote: |
...
I hope it is not a fake - seems somewhat different from J3-s, has small m on distance scale, matching stamped numbers on rear optical block, etc.
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I'm not an expert on CZJ lenses, but due to the "m" and the matching stamped numbers i would say it's original.
I found my LTM 1.5/5cm Sonnar a few years ago here in Zurich; it was matched to a rangefnder Leica built in 1941. Here in Switzerland you can occasionaly find civilian CZJ wartime lenses which were already coated. Obviously they found their way into neutral Switzerland during these difficult times...
You can find an image of two civilan coated wartime Sonnars here on my website:
http://www.artaphot.ch/zeiss/objektive/203-sonnar-5cm-1-1-5
Stephan _________________ www.artaphot.ch |
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exaklaus
Joined: 11 Aug 2009 Posts: 1633 Location: Niederrhein, Germany
Expire: 2011-12-02
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Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 12:52 pm Post subject: |
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exaklaus wrote:
According to Thiele's Fabrikationsbuch Carl Zeiss Jena, it was assembled in Decembre 1945.
my guess is, that it looks original. _________________ my Ebay auctions
Canon 5D II,
Fuji GW690III, Fuji G617, Fujifilm X-E1
Bessaflex TM
Tachihara 4"x5"
Summilux-R 1:1,4/50
Canon FD 85mm 1:1,2
Color-Heliar 75mm F2.5 SL
www.autoselbstfotografie.de
www.classic-cameras-and-lenses.de |
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TAo2
Joined: 09 Mar 2012 Posts: 319 Location: Scotland
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Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 1:41 pm Post subject: |
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TAo2 wrote:
Have a look here, Martin...http://www.klassik-cameras.de/Zeiss_Fakes.html |
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alex_KS
Joined: 29 Oct 2015 Posts: 35 Location: Kiev, Ukraine
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Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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alex_KS wrote:
It's obviously not a fake, as many people could think.
According to the serial# it was made in 1941-1942 year, during WWII.
If you want to be 100% sure about It - last 7 digits of the serial number should be diplicated on the bottom of the lens block, like here:
https://goo.gl/photos/FqyZfTvQ3pecvSd66 |
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jamaeolus
Joined: 19 Mar 2014 Posts: 2913 Location: Eugene
Expire: 2015-08-20
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Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 9:35 pm Post subject: |
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jamaeolus wrote:
I personally would not work on a lens of this value. I don't hesitate on cheap lenses but on these rare old beasts a wayward screwdriver or such can seriously devalue them. I would find a reputable lens technician. But then my lens repair skills are very weak (but improving). Just my opinion. _________________ photos are moments frozen in time |
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kds315*
Joined: 12 Mar 2008 Posts: 16499 Location: Weinheim, Germany
Expire: 2021-03-09
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Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:05 pm Post subject: |
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kds315* wrote:
jamaeolus wrote: |
I personally would not work on a lens of this value. I don't hesitate on cheap lenses but on these rare old beasts a wayward screwdriver or such can seriously devalue them. I would find a reputable lens technician. But then my lens repair skills are very weak (but improving). Just my opinion. |
exactly, would do the same!! _________________ Klaus - Admin
"S'il vient a point, me souviendra" [Thomas Bohier (1460-1523)]
http://www.macrolenses.de for macro and special lens info
http://www.pbase.com/kds315/uv_photos for UV Images and lens/filter info
https://www.flickr.com/photos/kds315/albums my albums using various lenses
http://photographyoftheinvisibleworld.blogspot.com/ my UV BLOG
http://www.travelmeetsfood.com/blog Food + Travel BLOG
https://galeriafotografia.com Architecture + Drone photography
Currently most FAV lens(es):
X80QF f3.2/80mm
Hypergon f11/26mm
ELCAN UV f5.6/52mm
Zeiss UV-Planar f4/60mm
Zeiss UV-Planar f2/62mm
Lomo Уфар-12 f2.5/41mm
Lomo Зуфар-2 f4.0/350mm
Lomo ZIKAR-1A f1.2/100mm
Nikon UV Nikkor f4.5/105mm
Zeiss UV-Sonnar f4.3/105mm
CERCO UV-VIS-NIR f1.8/45mm
CERCO UV-VIS-NIR f4.1/94mm
CERCO UV-VIS-NIR f2.8/100mm
Steinheil Quarzobjektiv f1.8/50mm
Pentax Quartz Takumar f3.5/85mm
Carl Zeiss Jena UV-Objektiv f4/60mm
NYE OPTICAL Lyman-Alpha II f1.1/90mm
NYE OPTICAL Lyman-Alpha I f2.8/200mm
COASTAL OPTICS f4/60mm UV-VIS-IR Apo
COASTAL OPTICS f4.5/105mm UV-Micro-Apo
Pentax Ultra-Achromatic Takumar f4.5/85mm
Pentax Ultra-Achromatic Takumar f5.6/300mm
Rodenstock UV-Rodagon f5.6/60mm + 105mm + 150mm
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MartinV
Joined: 09 May 2013 Posts: 67
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Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 8:50 am Post subject: |
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MartinV wrote:
Thank you for your comments, everybody. I was hoping someone had access to the Thiele book. Does it indicate that the serial belongs to a batch of LTM Sonnars or just the production month?
I understand that this is a factory LTM lens, not a Contax optical block transplant? How did Zeiss end up making lenses in LTM, did it happen already before the war or did it begin during the war?
This is what I managed to find on the subject:
https://www.photo.net/discuss/threads/zeiss-sonnar-50mm-lens-in-ltm.147606/#post-1683840
EDIT: and this: http://leicaphilia.com/carl-zeiss-jena-sonnar-5cm-1-5-for-leica/
alex_KS, based on what I've read, 1945 seems more likely to me, but you say 1941-1942? How did you determine that? It does have the last six digits of the serial on the rear lens block, in the same style as in your image.
I have no intention of working on the lens myself, I'd take it to a local repair guy. I'm sure he's handled Jupiter 3-s etc before, so I'm just trying to figure out what differences I should warn him about, such as the set screws holding the name ring and I guess also the rear optical block?
I think it would be a good idea to have him clean out the fungus, or is that more likely to cause damage than do any good, because of the soft coatings? Also the focusing is very uneven and the lens doesn't seem to be put together quite right (the misaligned rings). Aperture is fine though and all the fungus seems to be behind the aperture.
Optically it seems OK, central area is pretty sharp wide-open.
Would you recommend for or against having it CLA-d? |
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stevemark
Joined: 29 Apr 2011 Posts: 3751 Location: Switzerland
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Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 9:11 am Post subject: |
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stevemark wrote:
MartinV wrote: |
...
I'm sure he's handled Jupiter 3-s etc before, so I'm just trying to figure out what differences I should warn him about, such as the set screws holding the name ring and I guess also the rear optical block?
I think it would be a good idea to have him clean out the fungus, or is that more likely to cause damage than do any good, because of the soft coatings? |
I once opened a wartime coated Sonnar 1.5/5cm (Contax mount) - the inner coatings were extremely sensitive, just wiping the lens surfaces with a soft cloth was enough to destroy them! You have to be aware that removing the fungus might remove the coating as well. Your serial, however, is quite a bit higher than mine was, and maybe your coatings are already better than the ones on my lens. Or maybe not ...
Stephan _________________ www.artaphot.ch |
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alex_KS
Joined: 29 Oct 2015 Posts: 35 Location: Kiev, Ukraine
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Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 1:01 pm Post subject: |
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alex_KS wrote:
Here you can find the data about production year of Zeiss Jena lenses - http://forum.mflenses.com/carl-zeiss-jena-lenses-issue-date-by-serial-number-t6865.html |
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MartinV
Joined: 09 May 2013 Posts: 67
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Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 9:01 am Post subject: |
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MartinV wrote:
Stephan and others - assuming it has soft coatings, would you leave the fungus in there to preserve whatever is left of the coatings? Personally I'm pretty paranoid about fungus and would really like to have it cleaned off if possible. |
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tb_a
Joined: 26 Jan 2010 Posts: 3678 Location: Austria
Expire: 2019-08-28
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Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 9:28 am Post subject: |
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tb_a wrote:
You have to bear in mind that this lens is rather a collectors item and quality wise mediocre for today's standards. The majority of cheap modern standard lenses will blow it away in terms of picture quality in every aspect. I would not invest too much for restoration. _________________ Thomas Bernardy
Manual focus lenses mainly from Minolta, Pentax, Voigtlaender, Leitz, Topcon and from Russia (too many to be listed here). |
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Pancolart
Joined: 04 Feb 2008 Posts: 3693 Location: Slovenia, EU
Expire: 2013-11-18
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Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:48 am Post subject: |
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Pancolart wrote:
Even bigger caution cleaning inner elements: using usual stuff like Isopropyl alcohol getting in touch with glued elements creates or enhances separation! _________________ ---------------------------------
The Peculiar Apparatus Of Victorian Steampunk Photography: 100+ Genuine Steampunk Camera Designs https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0B92829NS |
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Lightshow
Joined: 04 Nov 2011 Posts: 3669 Location: Calgary
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Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 2:53 am Post subject: |
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Lightshow wrote:
First thing, expose fungus to UV light to kill fungus, the glass it's on is likely being etched as we speak, and cleaning that element I'll likely damage the coatings not covered by the fungus, hopefully the fungus is young and hasn't had much time to etch much, only one way to find out.
Good luck. _________________ A Manual Focus Junky...
One photographers junk lens is an artists favorite tool.
My lens list
http://www.flickr.com/photos/lightshow-photography/ |
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stevemark
Joined: 29 Apr 2011 Posts: 3751 Location: Switzerland
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Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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stevemark wrote:
MartinV wrote: |
Stephan and others - assuming it has soft coatings, would you leave the fungus in there to preserve whatever is left of the coatings? Personally I'm pretty paranoid about fungus and would really like to have it cleaned off if possible. |
I myself - inadvertently - have cleaned away some haze (without fungus yet) and a part of the corresponding coating of that lens. This means that one of the six surfaces of the Sonnar now is partly uncoated. From a user's point of view this certainly is not a major catastrophy, especially since the Sonnar has been designed completely without coatings!
I certainly would clean the fungus, as carefully as possible and only the areas affected - this for sure will enhance image quality, but not to the point a fully and perfectly coated lens.
tb_a wrote: |
You have to bear in mind that this lens is rather a collectors item and quality wise mediocre for today's standards. The majority of cheap modern standard lenses will blow it away in terms of picture quality in every aspect. I would not invest too much for restoration. |
Yes and no. You know that i usually prefer "sharp" lenses. However, the Sonnar, used on my tiny NEX-5N as a tiny "vintage" portrait lens, has quite a few advantages. Cropping cuts away the most severe aberrations (at f1.5), the lens fits perfectly to the tiny NEX-5N, stopped down to f5.6 / f8 is is very good, and wide open its images look is really and nicely "vintage". I mean everyone can see it...
Stephan _________________ www.artaphot.ch |
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tb_a
Joined: 26 Jan 2010 Posts: 3678 Location: Austria
Expire: 2019-08-28
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Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 5:44 am Post subject: |
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tb_a wrote:
stevemark wrote: |
..., the Sonnar, used on my tiny NEX-5N as a tiny "vintage" portrait lens, has quite a few advantages. Cropping cuts away the most severe aberrations (at f1.5), the lens fits perfectly to the tiny NEX-5N, stopped down to f5.6 / f8 is is very good, and wide open its images look is really and nicely "vintage". I mean everyone can see it... |
Every Jupiter-3 would do the same "trick", most probably better when it's free of fungus. _________________ Thomas Bernardy
Manual focus lenses mainly from Minolta, Pentax, Voigtlaender, Leitz, Topcon and from Russia (too many to be listed here).
Last edited by tb_a on Thu Apr 27, 2017 12:34 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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scsambrook
Joined: 29 Mar 2009 Posts: 2167 Location: Glasgow Scotland
Expire: 2011-11-18
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Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:53 am Post subject: |
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scsambrook wrote:
MartinV has both an uncommon and interesting lens and, unfortunately, something of a dilemma about how to proceed with it.
Without being unkind, as it stands it's a scruffy lens that's got fungus. has had a hard life, and - to make things still worse - been incompetetently taken apart and re-assembled. Removng the fungus will improve its imaging more than losing the coating on the same surface will degrade it, so that's the proverbial "no-brainer". If the rest of the interior surfaces are reasonably clean, then they're best left alone if the coating is indeed so delicate. Sorting out the mechanicals will make it nicer to use, so that's another bonus. If it can indeed be fully dismantled
However, all this will be expensive if Martin sends it to one of "top class" people who do this sort of work. Sending it to anyone inexperienced in refurbishing old lenses could be a recipe for disaster. Will an overhaul be worthwhile? Economically speaking, almost certainly not - collectors like pristine and as original as possible, and this lens won't ever make "top money". Photographically speaking, perhaps - if Martin is prepared to spend money which he probably won't get back if he ever sells it. (Yes, Iknow . . . we all do that at times !)
If it were mine, I'd take photos with it first and see how it behaves under as wide a range of conditions as possible - it might just be pleasing as it stands. If the results are disappointing, then it will time to bite the bullet. _________________ Stephen
Equipment: Pentax DSLR for casual shooting, Lumix G1 and Fuji XE-1 for playing with old lenses, and Leica M8 because I still like the optical rangefinder system. |
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fiftyonepointsix
Joined: 30 Apr 2017 Posts: 292
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Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 12:34 pm Post subject: |
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fiftyonepointsix wrote:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/90768661@N02/albums/72157647700164883
I suspect your lens was assembled after the war, "probably" using parts as found in the factory.
The SN puts it in the 285 block, these normally (but not always) have Black rims. The earlier 272 block lenses normally have chrome rings.
You don't show the entire focus ring: there should be a smaller screw under the screw that holds the ring in place. This serves as a limit screw for close/infinity focus. The Jupiter-3 mechanism uses an internal limit screw.
helical_numbers by fiftyonepointsix, on Flickr
retaining_screw_marked by fiftyonepointsix, on Flickr
Your lens: there might be hidden set screws holding the rear section in place and the name ring in place. You must unscrew the optics barrel from the mount and check for it before trying to unscrew the rear. Most of the Sonnars between 267 block and 285 block have this, most assembled after the war quit using it. 285: verify it.
It's best to remove the fungus, even if it means removing the coating on the surface. I've done this before, performance was improved.
This is from the album above, wide-open at F1.5 on the Leica M9:
Manassas Battlefield by fiftyonepointsix, on Flickr
Compared with the modern C-Sonnar, the latter is slightly better.
Compared with a Jupiter-3+, ZK Sonnar 5cm F1.5, and (very rare) Nikkor 5cm F1.5 in Leica mount.
https://www.leicaplace.com/threads/jupiter-3-plus-compared-with-three-rare-sonnar-lenses.1477/ |
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fiftyonepointsix
Joined: 30 Apr 2017 Posts: 292
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Posted: Mon May 01, 2017 11:20 pm Post subject: |
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fiftyonepointsix wrote:
This shot was taken with a lens originally in the same condition as yours, I removed the coating of the inner surface of the rear triplet.
riverboata by fiftyonepointsix, on Flickr
Taken almost 10 years ago, Kodacolor 400 in the Canon P. This particular Lens was sold off a long time ago. |
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MartinV
Joined: 09 May 2013 Posts: 67
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Posted: Thu May 04, 2017 8:59 am Post subject: |
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MartinV wrote:
An update: took the lens to a local repair guy. Got it back after a day with the following comments:
1) the lens has probably been cleaned previously - the fungus-like patterns seem to be just traces, probably left behind on the coatings, glass itself was supposedly smooth.
2) he did not fancy taking the focusing mount apart because of the non-original screws, some of which seem to be epoxied into place. He wasn't sure he'd be able to get it back together again.
So I guess the lens will remain as-is for the foreseeable the future, as a survivor, an interesting historical item and an occasional shooter
Thank you all for the information and guidance you provided! |
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fiftyonepointsix
Joined: 30 Apr 2017 Posts: 292
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Posted: Thu May 04, 2017 11:09 pm Post subject: |
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fiftyonepointsix wrote:
The Chrome Nosed lens from the same batch as yours did not have the distance scale engraved on the focus ring. The RF disagreed with actual focus, and the helical was cemented into the mount. I had to polish down the RF Cam to make the lens usable. A friend of mine sent me these Five lenses to work on several years ago.
The other lens from the 285 black has the more common Black Rim- was easier to work on.
IF you want to get to the rear group: just use a spanner on the inner retaining ring. IF there is a hidden set screw holding the fixture in place, the retaining ring still comes out and you can pop out the triplet for cleaning. |
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fiftyonepointsix
Joined: 30 Apr 2017 Posts: 292
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Posted: Thu May 04, 2017 11:13 pm Post subject: |
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fiftyonepointsix wrote:
These lenses were all "authentic"- when taking them apart a couple had the inner numbers for the parts of the focus mechanism.
The ZK Sonnars also can be found with these numbers. |
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MartinV
Joined: 09 May 2013 Posts: 67
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Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:03 pm Post subject: |
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MartinV wrote:
Well, I found another one, but I think this one might be a fake or a hybrid:
It has "M" on the distance scale instead of "m". So maybe a Jupiter 3 focusing mount; but could it still be an original Sonnar optical block? A remounted Contax? I am unable to unscrew the optical block from the focusing mount, so I can't check for numbers on the rear block like I could with the previous one. Anybody able to tell me anything based on the pictures or the serial number? |
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