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Comparison of Helios 40 85mm f1.5 and Biotar 75mm f1.5
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2021 5:33 pm    Post subject: Comparison of Helios 40 85mm f1.5 and Biotar 75mm f1.5 Reply with quote
So I have had a few outings with both lenses, and here is my brief comparison of the Helios 40 85mm f1.5 and Biotar 75mm f1.5 when shot wide-open at f1.5:

1. Both have a lovely painterly quality wide-open, although having their own distinctive characteristics, such as the Helios yields warmer results.
2. The Bokeh of the Helios is definitely smoother, with the bokeh of the Biotar a little busier.
3. Both are very hard to focus at f1.5, with the Helios being slightly easier.
4. The center sweet spot is larger on the Biotar than the Helios, and the Biotar is a little sharper all around. In both cases though the zone of maximum sharpness is quite limited and is the single most dramatic disadvantage of these lenses.
5. For various reasons the Helios is a little more user-friendly, and I particularly enjoy the aperture preset of the latter.
6. The issues with the Helios are the weird placing of the focus ring and the fact that it is a relatively heavy lens.
7. There is also the issue that the Helios is susceptible to back and side light, which can easily flood the field at a wide-open aperture.

All in all, many similarities but differences as well. I actually haven't decided which I like better. I want to try both at f2 and see whether I can expand the sweet spot and preserve the marvelous bokeh. If not, I will also try other bokeh-licious vintage portrait lenses such as the Tair 135mm f2.8 and the 85mm f/1.7 MC Rokkor, and see whether they perform better wide-open.

-Charles


PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2021 6:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Comparison of Helios 40 85mm f1.5 and Biotar 75mm f1.5 Reply with quote
charley5 wrote:
All in all, many similarities but differences as well.


Thanks for the information.

I've never used the Biotar 75...how heavy is it compared to the Helios? I know from experience the Helios is really heavy.


PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2021 8:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Comparison of Helios 40 85mm f1.5 and Biotar 75mm f1.5 Reply with quote
charley5 wrote:

...
I want to try both at f2 and see whether I can expand the sweet spot and preserve the marvelous bokeh. If not, I will also try other bokeh-licious vintage portrait lenses such as ... the 85mm f/1.7 MC Rokkor, and see whether they perform better wide-open.

-Charles


The Rokkor 1.7/85m certainly does, as do all the 1.7/85mm an d 1.8/85mm from the well known Japanese manufacturers. Those designs usually are from the 1965-1975 time frame - roughly 30-40 years newer than the Biotar 1.5/7.5 cm!

Personally I know the following:

Canon FD 1.8/85mm
Canon nFD 1.8/85mm
Konica F 1.8/85mm
Konica AR 1.8/85mm
Mamiya SX 1.7/85mm
Minolta MC 1.7/85mm
Minolta MD 1.7/85mm
Nikkor K 1.8/85mm

If you prefer a vintage look the Mmaiya and the Konica AR might be your choice - these lenses are pleasantly soft and low contrast wide open, but with a much smoother bokeh than the Biotar, and with much better detail resolution over the entire (full) frame. The CaMiNi versions are not as soft wide open as the Mamiya / Konica siblings. Stoppeddown to f5.6 they all are excellent over the entire 24x36mm frame.

S


PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2021 9:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
here are two shots to show the different character of a Helios 40-2 and a MC Rokkor 85.
Helios:


and Rokkor:



the Helios dreamy and with swirl also with good center sharpness.
the Rokkor with excellent 3D pop.


PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2021 4:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Comparison of Helios 40 85mm f1.5 and Biotar 75mm f1.5 Reply with quote
KEO wrote:
charley5 wrote:
All in all, many similarities but differences as well.


Thanks for the information.

I've never used the Biotar 75...how heavy is it compared to the Helios? I know from experience the Helios is really heavy.


The Biotar is 500g whereas the Helios is 900g. With my Arri PL adapter the weight of the Helios approaches 1000g. Rather hefty but manageable, since my left hand is always supporting the barrel and my right hand partly gripping and partly at the controls.


PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2021 4:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Comparison of Helios 40 85mm f1.5 and Biotar 75mm f1.5 Reply with quote
charley5 wrote:
So I have had a few outings with both lenses, and here is my brief comparison of the Helios 40 85mm f1.5 and Biotar 75mm f1.5 when shot wide-open at f1.5:

1. Both have a lovely painterly quality wide-open, although having their own distinctive characteristics, such as the Helios yields warmer results.
2. The Bokeh of the Helios is definitely smoother, with the bokeh of the Biotar a little busier.
3. Both are very hard to focus at f1.5, with the Helios being slightly easier.
4. The center sweet spot is larger on the Biotar than the Helios, and the Biotar is a little sharper all around. In both cases though the zone of maximum sharpness is quite limited and is the single most dramatic disadvantage of these lenses.
5. For various reasons the Helios is a little more user-friendly, and I particularly enjoy the aperture preset of the latter.
6. The issues with the Helios are the weird placing of the focus ring and the fact that it is a relatively heavy lens.
7. There is also the issue that the Helios is susceptible to back and side light, which can easily flood the field at a wide-open aperture.

All in all, many similarities but differences as well. I actually haven't decided which I like better. I want to try both at f2 and see whether I can expand the sweet spot and preserve the marvelous bokeh. If not, I will also try other bokeh-licious vintage portrait lenses such as the Tair 135mm f2.8 and the 85mm f/1.7 MC Rokkor, and see whether they perform better wide-open.

-Charles


Thank you!


PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2021 4:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Comparison of Helios 40 85mm f1.5 and Biotar 75mm f1.5 Reply with quote
stevemark wrote:
charley5 wrote:

...
I want to try both at f2 and see whether I can expand the sweet spot and preserve the marvelous bokeh. If not, I will also try other bokeh-licious vintage portrait lenses such as ... the 85mm f/1.7 MC Rokkor, and see whether they perform better wide-open.

-Charles


The Rokkor 1.7/85m certainly does, as do all the 1.7/85mm an d 1.8/85mm from the well known Japanese manufacturers. Those designs usually are from the 1965-1975 time frame - roughly 30-40 years newer than the Biotar 1.5/7.5 cm!

Personally I know the following:

Canon FD 1.8/85mm
Canon nFD 1.8/85mm
Konica F 1.8/85mm
Konica AR 1.8/85mm
Mamiya SX 1.7/85mm
Minolta MC 1.7/85mm
Minolta MD 1.7/85mm
Nikkor K 1.8/85mm

If you prefer a vintage look the Mmaiya and the Konica AR might be your choice - these lenses are pleasantly soft and low contrast wide open, but with a much smoother bokeh than the Biotar, and with much better detail resolution over the entire (full) frame. The CaMiNi versions are not as soft wide open as the Mamiya / Konica siblings. Stoppeddown to f5.6 they all are excellent over the entire 24x36mm frame.

S


These are great suggestions Steve. I will look into these lenses. I want to mention that I did have a breakthrough with the Helios-40 today almost wide-open (at f1.7) and finally mastered the focusing end. The painterly quality of the lens is amazing, and I will post some results soon.

-Charles


PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2021 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
planet.groove wrote:
here are two shots to show the different character of a Helios 40-2 and a MC Rokkor 85.
Helios:


and Rokkor:



the Helios dreamy and with swirl also with good center sharpness.
the Rokkor with excellent 3D pop.


Really interesting. I definitely will try the Rokkor for that obviously dreamy quality, although I did have a breakthrough with my Helios-40. I finally figured out how to maximize focusing, and had exactly the correct light. The painterly quality is incredible.


PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2021 6:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Comparison of Helios 40 85mm f1.5 and Biotar 75mm f1.5 Reply with quote
charley5 wrote:
With my Arri PL adapter the weight of the Helios approaches 1000g. Rather hefty but manageable, since my left hand is always supporting the barrel and my right hand partly gripping and partly at the controls.


Thanks! I also find my Helios 40-2 to be hefty but manageable. I agree too that it has some bokeh sweet spots that make really fantastic looking images - but that often gets overshadowed by the reputation of the extreme swirly bubble highlight effect.


PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 4:17 am    Post subject: Re: Comparison of Helios 40 85mm f1.5 and Biotar 75mm f1.5 Reply with quote
KEO wrote:
charley5 wrote:
With my Arri PL adapter the weight of the Helios approaches 1000g. Rather hefty but manageable, since my left hand is always supporting the barrel and my right hand partly gripping and partly at the controls.


Thanks! I also find my Helios 40-2 to be hefty but manageable. I agree too that it has some bokeh sweet spots that make really fantastic looking images - but that often gets overshadowed by the reputation of the extreme swirly bubble highlight effect.


Hi. I very rarely get swirling from this lens. The background has to be of high contrast, particularly foliage, for the swirl to be obvious. I usually shoot in low contrast situations, such as overcast skies. I also do bust shots, and the closer focus on the subject might also mitigate swirl.

-Charles
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