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300mm Mirror Lenses
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stevemark wrote:
cooltouch wrote:
Those are some great examples, Woodrim. That Makinon looks to be impressively sharp to me.
What is the typical aperture of a 250mm mirror? f/4? f/5.6?

The Minolta is f5.6. Very small and lightweight, about the size of an 1.2/58mm.
cooltouch wrote:

I would like to own a smaller mirror one day, but I just can't get my head around the prices they sell for these days. I'll stick to refractors for now.

That's reasonable. In the 200mm ... 300mm range i would go for either the Minolta MC 4/200mm which is very well corrected (nearly as good as the Minolta AF 2.8/200mm APO or the ED AF Nikkor 2.8/180mm, and visibly better than the FD 4/200mm, FD 2.8/200, MD 2.8/200, Ai Nikkor 4/200mm, Pentax M 4/200mm, Hexanon AR 3.5/200mm and AR 4/200mm). In the 300mm range the Canon new FD 5.6/300mm is quite good, and the FD 4/300mm L is very good. Another excellent and cheap 300mm lens is the Mamiya Sekor C 5.6/300mm (for Mamiya 645), which on 24MP FF is extremely sharp wide open, and has no CAs. Obviously, it contains ED glass.

woodrim wrote:

I just witnessed a Minolta selling for >$1200 at auction. Rubinar and Tamron have been running at 2/3 to 3/4 the price of Minolta. All three have remained out of my reach.

OOPS, that expensive ...?? I got my Minolta MD 5.6/250mm last year for CHF/USD 100.-- at a local photography shop, and one of my collegues bought one in Zurich for CHF/USD 60.--, also last year ... I must admit that the Minolta MD 5.6/250mm is a rather sharp and contrasty lens, certainly better than the Minolta MD 8/500mm.

Stephan


And another update on Minolta 250/5.6 sales.
One sold on eBay yesterday for 807GBP, refer
https://www.ebay.com/itm/263337414855?ul_noapp=true

If you're thinking of buying one then it's time to start saving pennies, (if you're not already saving).

Cheers,


PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now on page five of this thread, I think it time to reiterate my thinking and purpose for starting this thread. I find the mirror lenses very interesting, fun, and rewarding in their special way. The mirror lenses are to be thought of as a different class of lens, and they are. I would not suggest any of these short mirrors (or any length) can compete favorably with a good refractor lens. I think it is clear to almost everyone here that we are discussing and evaluating mirrors in relation to each other and not in relation to refractors. It is a given that a good refractor is a superior optic. With this understanding, hopefully, we can avoid any irrelevant discussion.

If I can make a comparison, I might offer one from another of my hobbies, classic cars. I have a big Healey and also a Bugeye/Frogeye Sprite. The big Healey easily outperforms the Sprite but the little Bugeye is a real kick to drive. That is how I look at the mirror lenses - a real kick to use and a challenge. But this is not to say there aren't advantages; there certainly are. Size and weight are the more obvious but image quality is another. That doesn't mean quality in the usual sense but indicates a unique artistic rendering that some find pleasing. I find pleasing.

Having done a great deal of reading over the past year, I am becoming more and more convinced that the mirror lenses are widely misunderstood and underappreciated. There seem to be endless comments about virtually every brand, condemning them as junk or candidates for door stops. I believe bad technique has a great deal to do with the comments as well as a lack of understanding as to the individual lens' strong and weak points. I now have several mirror lenses and know how I can use each to maximum benefit.


PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm going to continue to post images from my mirrors and hopefully, this thread will become informative to others researching short mirrors.

I will eventually be posting images from a 5.6/300 Super Danubia and more from a second Makinon. In time, maybe I'll be fortunate enough to acquire a Minolta, Tamron, or Rubinar. For now, the Ohnar has been spending time in my bag and has become useful in situations where my 200mm wasn't enough.

This past weekend while visiting Charleston's historic Magnolia Cemetery, I took out the mirror when I saw some birds, then decided to use it for other subjects. It turned out that the Ohnar shots were my favorite from the shoot.



This one suffered a little from movement - 1/100 second





150 year prayer


PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

woodrim wrote:
Now on page five of this thread, I think it time to reiterate my thinking and purpose for starting this thread. I find the mirror lenses very interesting, fun, and rewarding in their special way. The mirror lenses are to be thought of as a different class of lens, and they are. I would not suggest any of these short mirrors (or any length) can compete favorably with a good refractor lens. I think it is clear to almost everyone here that we are discussing and evaluating mirrors in relation to each other and not in relation to refractors. It is a given that a good refractor is a superior optic. With this understanding, hopefully, we can avoid any irrelevant discussion.

If I can make a comparison, I might offer one from another of my hobbies, classic cars. I have a big Healey and also a Bugeye/Frogeye Sprite. The big Healey easily outperforms the Sprite but the little Bugeye is a real kick to drive. That is how I look at the mirror lenses - a real kick to use and a challenge. But this is not to say there aren't advantages; there certainly are. Size and weight are the more obvious but image quality is another. That doesn't mean quality in the usual sense but indicates a unique artistic rendering that some find pleasing. I find pleasing.

Having done a great deal of reading over the past year, I am becoming more and more convinced that the mirror lenses are widely misunderstood and underappreciated. There seem to be endless comments about virtually every brand, condemning them as junk or candidates for door stops. I believe bad technique has a great deal to do with the comments as well as a lack of understanding as to the individual lens' strong and weak points. I now have several mirror lenses and know how I can use each to maximum benefit.


I agree with the concept that mirror lenses deserve consideration for what they can offer, and not necessarily as a direct competitor with refractors.
I would like to see more thought (and images) into "creative bokeh". That's where they could shine perhaps.
Unfortunately for me this thread is all about 300mm mirrors, of which I have only one (the Rubinar), and its for sale anyway.
I don't plan to buy any other 300mm mirror at this time. (Except maybe the latest Tokina or Samyang, when I can afford). For a shorter focal length mirror I'm thinking more of adding a focal reducer to one of my 500mm mirrors to give 350mm f/5.6 (effective).
Cheers,


PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

3dpan wrote:

I agree with the concept that mirror lenses deserve consideration for what they can offer, and not necessarily as a direct competitor with refractors.
I would like to see more thought (and images) into "creative bokeh". That's where they could shine perhaps.
Unfortunately for me this thread is all about 300mm mirrors, of which I have only one (the Rubinar), and its for sale anyway.
I don't plan to buy any other 300mm mirror at this time. (Except maybe the latest Tokina or Samyang, when I can afford). For a shorter focal length mirror I'm thinking more of adding a focal reducer to one of my 500mm mirrors to give 350mm f/5.6 (effective).
Cheers,

I often use a focal reducer on my mirror lenses (a 500mm/5.6 & a 600mm/Cool because the crop I get with MFT makes them somewhat excessive. A FOV equivalent to 700mm or 900mm Full frame is quite a handful but can be managed handheld especially with the extra stop of light. Neither are practical to hand hold without the reducer & can be a struggle with a monopod if your not well braced Smile
Here's a couple of quick examples of the 600 on a focal reducer (both handheld, and including NIR as they where using my full spectrum camera):
Handheld mirror test by Mike Kanssen, on Flickr
FS test - Reflex + focal reducer by Mike Kanssen, on Flickr


PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

3dpan wrote:

I would like to see more thought (and images) into "creative bokeh". That's where they could shine perhaps.


True. As everyone knows, the donuts can be bad at times and interesting in some cases but mostly should be avoided. I have avoided or lessened the donuts when possible by choosing an angle that provided a dark or highlight absent background. In some cases, the bokeh can be very pleasing. One example here...



PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

woodrim wrote:
This past weekend while visiting Charleston's historic Magnolia Cemetery, I took out the mirror when I saw some birds, then decided to use it for other subjects. It turned out that the Ohnar shots were my favorite from the shoot.


I love the background on this one. Very impressionistic! With mirror lenses, you get a lot of Monet for a small bit of your money...Rolling Eyes

Cheers!

Abbazz


PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2018 11:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Ohnar has earned an almost permanent place in my bag. I have played with the Makinon some more, correcting the mount issue, which made a definite improvement but still have mixed success. The Makinon can give a good, decently sharp image when focused perfectly but that is the challenge. It has a much shorter throw than the Ohnar and the slightest movement takes it out of focus. Additionally, I don't find the Makinon to be good at distances.

The birding season is just now starting and I have been back to the Audubon swamp. My big Maksutov 6.3/500 hasn't been used since the birds flew off last spring. This time, I took the Ohnar with me as well. Looking at the results, it surprises me how close in quality the Ohnar compares to the Mak 3M-6A. I find it difficult making a direct comparison since they are so different in focal length, but I don't see any difference in sharpness when both are well focused. This really does surprise me. The following are from the Ohnar.







PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 12:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="woodrim"]The Ohnar has earned an almost permanent place in my bag. I have played with the Makinon some more, correcting the mount issue, which made a definite improvement but still have mixed success. The Makinon can give a good, decently sharp image when focused perfectly but that is the challenge. It has a much shorter throw than the Ohnar and the slightest movement takes it out of focus. Additionally, I don't find the Makinon to be good at distances.

The birding season is just now starting and I have been back to the Audubon swamp. My big Maksutov 6.3/500 hasn't been used since the birds flew off last spring. This time, I took the Ohnar with me as well. Looking at the results, it surprises me how close in quality the Ohnar compares to the Mak 3M-6A. I find it difficult making a direct comparison since they are so different in focal length, but I don't see any difference in sharpness when both are well focused. This really does surprise me. The following are from the Ohnar.



They are really neat pics, but I wish you hadn't posted them.
I had almost convinced myself that I didn't need that lens in my collection.
Ho hum, back to eBay.

smile:


PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 12:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really like mirror lenses and I don't mind the bokeh really, but when I discovered the crazy prices that the short mirror sell for these days, I reluctantly wrote them off my "to buy" list. Dunno why I didn't think of it, but 3dpan answered my problem by mentioning using a focal reducer. Of course! Not only would a focal reducer work nicely but it will also increase the speed of the lens, so that it'll end up being the same speed as a short tele mirror as well.

I've been meaning to buy a focal reducer for a while now, and this is just another big reason for me to do so.

And on the topic of mirror bokeh, here are some rather unusually shaped ones. This is a Kodachrome slide, shot with a Sigma 600mm f/8.



PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 5:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I love my Rubinar 500mm f/5.6 with 0.7x reducer on full Frame Sony A7II!
Speedboosters are really helpfull optical "toys" Smile


PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 8:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for this comments I have learnt a few things from this (snd some beautiful pictures):

- Reducers can be used even with full frame camera and full frame lenses.
* Do they need to be specific or say a zonghi ii (meant for APS-C I thought) would work?
* Is the quality any good or is the loss of quality significant?

I have a Elicar 300 mm 5.6 and thought it was probably a rebranding from another RF 300mm like the Makinon. Does anybody know about this lens provenance?
Alos diameter is same as 250 mm Minolta and claims same light (5.6) which seems contradictory


PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 8:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Reducers work when the image circle is large enough, and you have enough distance between lens and camera.
I use a modified Kipon medium format speedbooster. Normal ones for 24x36mm lenses will very likely not work on 24x36 cameras without vignetting.


PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 9:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cooltouch wrote:
I really like mirror lenses and I don't mind the bokeh really, but when I discovered the crazy prices that the short mirror sell for these days, I reluctantly wrote them off my "to buy" list. Dunno why I didn't think of it, but 3dpan answered my problem by mentioning using a focal reducer. Of course! Not only would a focal reducer work nicely but it will also increase the speed of the lens, so that it'll end up being the same speed as a short tele mirror as well.

I've been meaning to buy a focal reducer for a while now, and this is just another big reason for me to do so.

And on the topic of mirror bokeh, here are some rather unusually shaped ones. This is a Kodachrome slide, shot with a Sigma 600mm f/8.



I use a focal reducer practically all the time with my mirror lenses on MFT. Which helps reduce the crop...
It still works out ~900mm equivalent for one of them, but the increased speed makes this borderline hand holdable in good conditions.

I suspect a 300mm mirror will remain on my to buy list for many years. I'm not sure if it will ever reach the top if the list though.


PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cooltouch wrote:

And on the topic of mirror bokeh, here are some rather unusually shaped ones.


Interesting, Michael. I'm more accustomed to seeing strange things in highlights caused by dirt, fungus, or Palmetto bug egg sacs on the rear element. Have you seen that in other peoples pictures from the same lens?


PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Antoine wrote:

I have a Elicar 300 mm 5.6 and thought it was probably a rebranding from another RF 300mm like the Makinon. Does anybody know about this lens provenance?


It is very difficult to find good history on these lenses but you are right that many, if not all, are branded other than manufacture name. I have looked at many of the 300mm versions and observed a few things. The Ohnar also had a version with aperture selection that really accomplished nothing good other than dimming. I saw a Cambron model, with aperture selection, for sale and noted the similarities to the Ohnar. I directed a friend to it, he purchased, and sure enough, it is basically the same lens and equal to my Onar in IQ. There is an assortment of other brands that I believe are the same as the Ohnar.

An important distinction between the Ohnar-like versions and the Makinon is the distance at infinity. The numbers just prior to infinity on the Makinon are 50/15 feet/meter. The Ohnar and its like are 100/30. I suspect that relates to both the MFD of the Makinon and the sensitive focusing.


PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've seen the earlier mention of using reducers. I wouldn't have guessed they matched up well with mirrors given they don't work well with all refractor lenses. Speed increase is always good, especially with slow mirrors. Have you confirmed it to increase? And what is the impact on the quality of the image?


PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ohnar and Ferrari at Amelia Island Concours d'Elegance



PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 1:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MC Rubinar 300mm f4.5



PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.adaptall-2.com/lenses/06B.html


PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like that Rubinar shot, one of the few times the donut bokeh actually looks nice rather than distracting.


PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 12:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wolan wrote:
MC Rubinar 300mm f4.5



Yes, on my list when I can afford it. Saving up now Smile


PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 12:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

More from Amelia Island Concours d'Elegance and Ohnar. I should also mention that I'm now shooting with a Sony A7 II.















PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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