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85mm with best microcontrast / 3dpop
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:22 pm    Post subject: 85mm with best microcontrast / 3dpop Reply with quote

hi

I hope you are well?

hum, a time ago I had in mind to buy one 100 or 135mm or even one 180mm (At the end anyway I will have most of theses focales so I do not care to start with one instead of another one as most of the time I'm using shortest stuffs )

I even made this topic : http://forum.mflenses.com/viewtopic,p,1489231.html#1489231

I have not been able to find answers to my question so I decided to start with an even shorter focal length : 85mm

My ONLY goal Is to obtain the MOST microcontrast / 3Dpop possible!! (I do not want at all to create a war about this subject there, and yes I know that this depend of the sun, the conditions, etc, sure, but I'm also sure that some lenses are better than others one about this one and as I'm not able to know which one, I need help, that's all lol, thanks for your understanding)

I do not really care about other variables for my choice (I will keep the price more for the final choice), now I'm lost between this selection of 3 lenses :



contax yashica
85/2.8 Sonnar
Number of elements/groups 5/4
sonnar
http://allphotolenses.com/public/files/pdfs/a2d4138cde5434dd587e25f2485a744c.pdf


Tele-Tessar T* 4/85 ZM
Number of elements/groups 5/3
Tessar
https://diglloyd.com/articles/ZeissZM/Zeiss.ZM-85f4-optical-formula.jpg


Loxia 2.4/85
Number of elements/groups 7 / 7 (3 Anomalous Partial Dispersion Elements)
Sonnar
http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Loxia-700x395.jpg
ready for 42 Mpix lol



I also saw the :
Batis 1.8/85
Number of elements/groups 11/8 (special types of glass & floating elements)
Sonnar
But it is not my actual sort of trip, to go on a direction of a lens with 11 elements (maybe the day when I will shoot 15 models by days I will change my mind and try the Batis ahaha)



So, about the Loxia, the Zeiss, and the C/Y (I put a link to the the designs of the 3 optical formula for each), do you have any suggestion for my direction with microcontrast ?

thanks a lot in advance, and thanks you to exist
Like 1 small


PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 6:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I dont know the three lenses you statded form my own experinece.
With the Zeiss C/Y AE 85mm f/1.4 I sometimes (Rarely) get images where I got the 3D pop:







PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 7:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't believe that you will find somebody here who has experience with all the optics you have put into consideration.

However, as you are most probably using a Sony A7 series camera the best option will be almost for sure the Loxia type of lens as this lens was specifically developed for the Sony A7 and this camera does a lot of software tweaking to optimize it's genuine lenses. Such optimization will not be available for the ZM or the old Contax lenses. Especially ZM (rangefinder) lenses developed for Leica M are known to have a rather poor performance on the original A7 series.

Just my 2 cents.


PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 10:46 am    Post subject: Re: 85mm with best microcontrast / 3dpop Reply with quote

immortalblue wrote:
hi

...

now I'm lost between this selection of 3 lenses :



contax yashica
85/2.8 Sonnar
Number of elements/groups 5/4
sonnar


Tele-Tessar T* 4/85 ZM
Number of elements/groups 5/3
Tessar


Loxia 2.4/85
Number of elements/groups 7 / 7 (3 Anomalous Partial Dispersion Elements)
Sonnar

ready for 42 Mpix lol



I also saw the :
Batis 1.8/85
Number of elements/groups 11/8 (special types of glass & floating elements)
Sonnar
...



The first three lenses are classical "Zeiss" designs, the last one is a Tamron patent. I have shoot quickly with the batis 1.8/85mm, and i was not really happy about the feelling of the lens and the look of the images. This impression is very preliminary, though, and i may change my mind ... I know from first hand, that the Sony AL 2.8/85mm is better than the Zeiss CY 2.8/85mm (in fact the Sony 2.8/85mm is optically is an excellent lens), but i didn't like the "cheap" feeling of the lens barrel. The Loxia series is a near-perfect combination of precise mechanical MF and modern top-notch optics. Personally i would go for the Loxia, since the ZM Tele Tessar is very slow and needs an adapter (which adds new problems).

Stephan


PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 12:38 pm    Post subject: Re: 85mm with best microcontrast / 3dpop Reply with quote

stevemark wrote:
... I know from first hand, that the Sony AL 2.8/85mm is better than the Zeiss CY 2.8/85mm (in fact the Sony 2.8/85mm is optically is an excellent lens), but i didn't like the "cheap" feeling of the lens barrel. ..


I have the 85mm Batis and the 85mm f/2.8 Sony A-mount lens and I can confirm - the Sony lens is, optically, a very nice lens(really surprising good for the price). It is small and light, with a LA-EA3 / LA-EA4 it has AF (though not very snappy) and on the latest Sony cameras it has IS, too.
Batis is sharper at all openings on an A7RII and the PP is, somehow, better with the files it produces but the little "plastic-phantastic" Sony 85mm often gives, IMO, more "pop" in straight out of the camera images for ~1/8 the price. If you don't make enlargements grater than A3-A2 you don't need the Batis.

You may consider the Leica 90mm Elmarit-R, too. It is a very nice older lens and, for ~300€, not very expensive.


PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe you should also consider the Minolta (Sony) AF 85mm/F1.4 lens. That's an excellent lens and sometimes its fastness and AF-capability is really an advantage too.
I like it very much.


PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I might as well mention the lenses I'm familiar with.

Nikon 85mm f/1.8: a very nice optic, which I used almost exclusively for portraiture.

Nikon 105mm f/2.5: a Nikon classic. Mine is the older non-AI version. Very nice separation, excellent sharpness.

Canon nFD 100mm f/2.8: A great all-around lens for that focal length. Good separation, excellent sharpness.

Canon nFD 85mm f/1.8: a solid little lump of glass and metal. Very nice separation, excellent sharpness.

Canon FD 85mm f/1.2 SSC Aspherical: the granddaddy of the fast Canon 85's. Amazing separation, very narrow depth of field when shooting wide open, excellent sharpness.

Canon nFD 100mm f/4 Macro: great separation at macro levels, excellent sharpness. Needs tube to get down to 1:1.

Vivitar 105mm f//2.5 Macro (the legendary Kiron 105mm macro, s/n starting with 22): Excellent sharpness and contrast. Delivers 1:1 size without tubes.

Tamron 90mm f/2.5 Macro: One of the sharpest lenses I own. Great contrast and outstanding sharpness. Needs tube or teleconverter to get down to 1:1.

=============================

Canon FD 85mm f/1.2 SSC Aspherical. Both images shot wide open at f/1.2:



Canon nFD 100mm f/2.8:



Canon nFD 100mm f/4 Macro, both images at f/8:



Nikon 105mm f/2.5 Pre-AI Nikkor (with Nikon AI kit) @ f/2.5:


Nikon 105mm f/2.5 Pre-AI Nikkor (with Nikon AI kit) @ f/8:


Nikon 105mm f/2.5 Pre-AI Nikkor (with Nikon AI kit) @ f/2.5:


Vivitar 105mm f/2.5 (Legendary Kiron 105 Macro). Both images shot at f/2.5:



Tamron 90mm f/2.5, shot at f/8:



PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 10:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice ones Michael particularly the Tamron then Vivitar,Canon and Nikon. also have all 4 lenses.


PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 12:04 pm    Post subject: Re: 85mm with best microcontrast / 3dpop Reply with quote

dan_ wrote:
stevemark wrote:
... I know from first hand, that the Sony AL 2.8/85mm is better than the Zeiss CY 2.8/85mm (in fact the Sony 2.8/85mm is optically is an excellent lens), but i didn't like the "cheap" feeling of the lens barrel. ..


I have the 85mm Batis and the 85mm f/2.8 Sony A-mount lens and I can confirm - the Sony lens is, optically, a very nice lens
...
the little "plastic-phantastic" Sony 85mm often gives, IMO, more "pop" in straight out of the camera images for ~1/8 the price. If you don't make enlargements grater than A3-A2 you don't need the Batis.

Good description ... thanks Wink


[quote="dan_"]
stevemark wrote:

You may consider the Leica 90mm Elmarit-R, too. It is a very nice older lens and, for ~300€, not very expensive.

I have close to zero experience with Leica R glass - how does the Elmarit-R 2.8/90mm compare to other lenses, e. g. the Sony 2.8/85mm?

Stephan


PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only way to avoid being faulted for lack of microcontrast is to buy Zeiss Smile


PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 12:19 pm    Post subject: Re: 85mm with best microcontrast / 3dpop Reply with quote

stevemark wrote:
I have close to zero experience with Leica R glass - how does the Elmarit-R 2.8/90mm compare to other lenses, e. g. the Sony 2.8/85mm?


Well Stephan, I'd say it has a more subtile character. Sharpness-wise it is between Sony and Zeiss (that means resonable A3-A2 enlargements with Sony A7RII), it has a bit less contrast than Sony and the Bokeh is a bit harsher, too. But it has that "Leica look", the look that, for me at least, says "I've been there!" more than other lenses.
There are 2 iteration of the lens: the last one is a bit sharper and more "techical correct" but the older one has a more a subtile character while being still sharp enough for great enlargement.
I prefered and still have the older one.


PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 12:56 pm    Post subject: Re: 85mm with best microcontrast / 3dpop Reply with quote

dan_ wrote:
stevemark wrote:
I have close to zero experience with Leica R glass - how does the Elmarit-R 2.8/90mm compare to other lenses, e. g. the Sony 2.8/85mm?


Well Stephan, I'd say it has a more subtile character. Sharpness-wise it is between Sony and Zeiss (that means resonable A3-A2 enlargements with Sony A7RII), it has a bit less contrast than Sony and the Bokeh is a bit harsher, too. But it has that "Leica look", the look that, for me at least, says "I've been there!" more than other lenses.
There are 2 iteration of the lens: the last one is a bit sharper and more "techical correct" but the older one has a more a subtile character while being still sharp enough for great enlargement.
I prefered and still have the older one.


The RF Elmarit 90mm/F2.8 in Leica M mount isn't bad as well.
At least I like it very much. Wink


PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 5:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@ dan_ : Thank you Wink

Stephan


PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 10:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hello

thanks a lot for your reply

I will take the time to reply more in detail when I will have more time

for the moment I only have to say 2 points lol

- I'm a pure fan Zeiss

- I was on the Elmarit 2.8 90mm FLICKR : https://www.flickr.com/groups/1610757@N23/pool/with/23807581199/ And I took a big slap of microcontrast in my head ahahaha, wouarf....huge surprise for me ( do not know If I'm objective about as I'm really tired)

so, first logical question as I know nothing at all about leica...which version of this elmarti 90mm will be the most full of microcontrast and 3d ?

thanks a lot (will reply better asap)


PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 1:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

immortalblue wrote:
so, first logical question as I know nothing at all about leica...which version of this elmarti 90mm will be the most full of microcontrast and 3d ?


A quite good oversight of the different M-versions of the Elmarit 90mm/F2.8 you can find here:
http://www.kenrockwell.com/leica/90mm-lenses.htm
I don't know where to find information about the R-versions. Sorry.
However, it's IMHO almost impossible to go wrong with an Elmarit 90mm and the worst version is still very good.
It of course also depends on the money you're prepared to spend for any new (old) lens.
I own an M-version from 1972 which I've bought for 300 Euro some years ago and I am very satisfied with my lens.
Examples from my copy can be seen here: http://forum.mflenses.com/leitz-wetzlar-elmarit-90mm-f2-8-m-bayonet-t71415.html


PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 9:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tb_a wrote:
I don't believe that you will find somebody here who has experience with all the optics you have put into consideration.

However, as you are most probably using a Sony A7 series camera the best option will be almost for sure the Loxia type of lens as this lens was specifically developed for the Sony A7 and this camera does a lot of software tweaking to optimize it's genuine lenses. Such optimization will not be available for the ZM or the old Contax lenses. Especially ZM (rangefinder) lenses developed for Leica M are known to have a rather poor performance on the original A7 series.

Just my 2 cents.


As far as I know, there is no software tweaking for Sony lenses on the A7. You have just corrected Jpegs from distortion , vignete and CA as on ANY modern digital camera , SLR or mirrorless.
Raw produced from A7 are free from those corrections.

Any telelens will work properly on an A7.
I am using following 85mm on this camera:

Batis 85 ( which needs distortion correction)
CZ 85 2.8 ( QBM)
Canon 85 1.8
Pentax M 85 2
Tokina 90 2.4

Regarding the initial question , I find my Sonnar 85 2.8 ( QBM) full of 3D pop. It is a perfect fit to the A7.


PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

memetph wrote:
You have just corrected Jpegs from distortion , vignete and CA as on ANY modern digital camera , SLR or mirrorless.
Raw produced from A7 are free from those corrections.


That's exactly what I call "software tweaking" and that is only available for E-mount lenses. I know that this is also done by other manufacturers. My Panasonic Lumix GF1 does that likewise if original lenses are used.

Of course, if you shoot RAW or use other than E-mount lenses then you may have to do that manually afterwards in LR or similar software, depending on lens performance. If you are lucky then a lens profile may be already available in LR for instance.

BTW, automatic correction of vignetting is also available in RAW mode on the A7 (source: http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/sony-a7/sony-a7A4.HTM).


PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tb_a wrote:
memetph wrote:
You have just corrected Jpegs from distortion , vignete and CA as on ANY modern digital camera , SLR or mirrorless.
Raw produced from A7 are free from those corrections.


That's exactly what I call "software tweaking" and that is only available for E-mount lenses. I know that this is also done by other manufacturers. My Panasonic Lumix GF1 does that likewise if original lenses are used.

Of course, if you shoot RAW or use other than E-mount lenses then you may have to do that manually afterwards in LR or similar software, depending on lens performance. If you are lucky then a lens profile may be already available in LR for instance.

BTW, automatic correction of vignetting is also available in RAW mode on the A7 (source: http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/sony-a7/sony-a7A4.HTM).


I think you are confusing.
All jpegs include currently those corrections if you use native lenses. It is true for all brands . For example, the Jpegs of my wife's Pentax k50 SLR include the corrections for her Pentax zoom . The Raw files are uncorrected.
Regarding E mount there is absolutely no difference with other brands : Jpegs corrected , Raw uncorrected. There is no Sony E mount or FE mount specificity in this regard.

Micro 4/3 is a different story ( Panasonic or Olympus). Usually with softwares like LR or Silkypix , the Raw file includes corrections and you have no access to uncorrected files.

You can believe me , I am talking about cameras which I own. ( Pentax K, Sony E and FE, Panasonic)

The article that you are quoting is wrong.
28/70 at 28mm f8 ( lens tested)
uncorrected Raw in LR




corrected Raw in LR ( distortion and vignete reduced by lens profile )



PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's a bit of a curve ball, and far from the easiest to use, but the Zeiss Contax G Sonnar 90/2.8 is IMHO, the best lens in this focal range.


PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 1:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I love the Apo-Lanthar 90/3.5 for its superb local contrast. I use it a lot on my Sony A7II and A6000 and it consistently delivers great pictures. Its close focus capability is a big plus too.

F/3.5 is not very fast, but it's not a lens designed for portrait in available light.

Cheers!

Abbazz


PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 4:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Abbazz wrote:

F/3.5 is not very fast, but it's not a lens designed for portrait in available light.


Yeah, but with modern high-ISO wonders, today's f/3.5 is like yesterday's f/1.8. So, no worries. Cool


PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 5:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've tried several 85-100 FL,
I recommend Konica Hexanon 85/1,8 AR


PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 6:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Abbazz wrote:
I love the Apo-Lanthar 90/3.5 for its superb local contrast. I use it a lot on my Sony A7II and A6000 and it consistently delivers great pictures. Its close focus capability is a big plus too.

F/3.5 is not very fast, but it's not a lens designed for portrait in available light.

Cheers!

Abbazz

Like 1 small Like 1 small Like 1 small yep, deeply regret that I sold mine


PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A few more to ad to the mix!

This is how the Nikon Nikkor-P.C behaves


PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 8:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kds315* wrote:
Abbazz wrote:
I love the Apo-Lanthar 90/3.5 for its superb local contrast. I use it a lot on my Sony A7II and A6000 and it consistently delivers great pictures. Its close focus capability is a big plus too.

F/3.5 is not very fast, but it's not a lens designed for portrait in available light.


Like 1 small Like 1 small Like 1 small yep, deeply regret that I sold mine

I have two, just in case...

Cheers!

Abbazz