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Rectilinear ultra wide angle lens for FF
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 7:26 am    Post subject: Rectilinear ultra wide angle lens for FF Reply with quote
Hi everybody,

I'm presently evaluating available rectilinear ultra wide angle lenses for my Sony A850 FF DSLR.

Obviously there are only the Laowa 12mm/F2.8 Zero-D and Samyang 14mm/F2.8 UMC lenses available in Sony A mount. The Laowa lens is more expensive than a new Sony A7 for which I could eventually use my existing Voigtländer 12mm UWA lens (obviously with certain limitations due to the thick filter stack issues).

I would like to know if somebody already had any experience with these lenses or was in a similar position. The question is also whether the slightly wider angle of view of the Laowa lens (122°) justifies the tripple price compared to the Samyang lens (116°).

Any thoughts or hints are welcome.

Cheers,


PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Some time ago i wanted to try something wider than my widest lens at that point (17mm). But i don't like the fish-eye effect.

As i did not want to spend a large amount of money for a lens that i'd probably use very little i finally went for a Sigma 3.5/14. The old manual version, for which i paid 90 euros.
Samples below were taken on a standard Sony A7 model (first series). I read about thick filter stack issues every where, but i never encountered any problems. (or i'm not looking at it the right way.....)

1.
Westenschouwse inlaag by René Maly, on Flickr

2.
The creation of power by René Maly, on Flickr

The lens itself:
Sigma 14mm f/3.5 by René Maly, on Flickr


PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I'm not sure how wide you need but I had the Zeiss Loxia 20mm 2.8 and it was absolutely fantastic. Expensive, but worth it. I had to sell it to go for an AF version for underwater photography but I hope to replace it when money becomes available. I actually sold it for more than I paid so with shipping making it a wash so I got to use it for 9 months for virtually nothing.


PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
TrueLoveOne wrote:
Some time ago i wanted to try something wider than my widest lens at that point (17mm). But i don't like the fish-eye effect.

As i did not want to spend a large amount of money for a lens that i'd probably use very little i finally went for a Sigma 3.5/14. The old manual version, for which i paid 90 euros.
Samples below were taken on a standard Sony A7 model (first series). I read about thick filter stack issues every where, but i never encountered any problems. (or i'm not looking at it the right way.....)


What I've seen this Sigma lens isn't available in Sony A/Minolta AF mount nor it's successor in F2.8. There is only a 15mm fish-eye lens and I don't like fish-eye lenses as well.
I was referring to my existing Voigtlaender RF lens for which the A7 stack issue is already known. It's not as obvious with SLR lenses but some people also report similar effects even with some of these lenses.
Anyway, thanks for your nice example pictures.

jamaeolus wrote:
I'm not sure how wide you need but I had the Zeiss Loxia 20mm 2.8 and it was absolutely fantastic. Expensive, but worth it. I had to sell it to go for an AF version for underwater photography but I hope to replace it when money becomes available. I actually sold it for more than I paid so with shipping making it a wash so I got to use it for 9 months for virtually nothing.


I've got the Minolta AF 20mm/F2.8 already and that's an excellent 20mm wide angle lens. Therefore I definitely want something equal or below 15mm in rectilinear design (no fish-eye). It must be in Sony A/Minolta AF mount or in M42. Manual focus is more than good enough.


PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
tb_a wrote:

What I've seen this Sigma lens isn't available in Sony A/Minolta AF mount nor it's successor in F2.8.


Didn't know that, i thought the AF version was also made in A-mount. There should be an M42 version, which can easily be adapted, but i guess you know that.... Wink


PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I was looking at ultra-wides for my A7R and the reputation of the Pentax K 15mm (rectilinear) was good. I haven't used it much as I don't use the A7R much. This was its first trip out:

http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1424039/

This may be of interest:

[url]: https://www.pentaxforums.com/lensreviews/SMC-Pentax-K-15mm-F3.5-Lens.html#ixzz4q0XJ0PU5[/url]

Last edited by e6filmuser on Thu Apr 19, 2018 5:04 pm; edited 1 time in total


PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
See here: http://www.dyxum.com/reviews/lenses/Sigma-14mm-F2.8-EX-Aspherical_review149.html

So there is one after all.


PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
e6filmuser wrote:
I was looking at ultra-wides for my A7R and the reputation of the Pentax K 15mm (rectilinear) was good. I haven't used it much as I don't use the A7R much.


Thanks for the hint. Although it would be also available in compatible M42 mount it's very rare and awful expensive.

TrueLoveOne wrote:
See here: http://www.dyxum.com/reviews/lenses/Sigma-14mm-F2.8-EX-Aspherical_review149.html

So there is one after all.


Thanks, I didn't know that as it's already discontinued and I never was a big fan of Sigma AF lenses as well. There have been many stories that the rather strong AF motor from the Minolta/Sony bodies destroyed these lenses.
However, there is only one presently available on Ebay for almost 500 EUR used. Obviously it was rather expensive when new in 1998.
The Samyang would be available for 350 EUR new.


PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I was looking for a a good wide prime for the A99ii recently as the 42 mp sensor was asking serious questions of some of my older MF wider lenses and settled on a leitax converted Distagon 18mm 3.5 in ZF mount which is very simple mount off/ new mount on conversion for A mount. If you are super rich you could leitax a Milvus 15mm 2.8!!

But 18mm is more than wide enough for me and was a much humbler price from a pawn shop and half the price of your Laowa converted. It can also use on E mount which was a factor as i use both mounts and have no intention changing that soon. Lightroom lens profiles for the ZF version of the lens work well in correcting any distortion also.

Other alternatives are tamron 15-30 2.8 but getting nearer your Laowa price, a big beastie of a lens and outsize filter systems required.

A seriously rainy day sample of the 18mm


PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Rectilinear ultra wide angle lens for FF Reply with quote
tb_a wrote:
Hi everybody,

I would like to know if somebody already had any experience with these lenses or was in a similar position. The question is also whether the slightly wider angle of view of the Laowa lens (122°) justifies the tripple price compared to the Samyang lens (116°).

Any thoughts or hints are welcome.

Cheers,


I've been using the Samyang a few times, and i never felt attacted to buy one, even though they are very cheap. The Samyang can litteraly "dismantle" itself when in use (glued lenses falling apart). I cannot and will not work with such lenses when doing professional work. In addition the Samyang simply has too much distortion. Corner resolution may be great - if you have a sample with correctly glued lenses...

I am thinking about getting the the Laowa, especially since its designer is a keen photographer and certainly loves designing good lenses.

On the other had i have the Canon TS-E 4/17mm Shift which I can use for extreme wideangle shots: Shifting the lens +/- 12 mm each gives me two 24x36mm images (= 36 x 48mm sensor size; image angle corresponding to a 12mm Full Frame lens) with an excellent medium format quality.

Stephan


PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Rectilinear ultra wide angle lens for FF Reply with quote
tb_a wrote:
Hi everybody,

I'm presently evaluating available rectilinear ultra wide angle lenses for my Sony A850 FF DSLR.


If you don't have restrictions on an AF lens, I think the Tamron SP 15-30mm f / 2.8 Di USD would be an interesting option...


PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Macca wrote:
I was looking for a a good wide prime for the A99ii recently as the 42 mp sensor was asking serious questions of some of my older MF wider lenses and settled on a leitax converted Distagon 18mm 3.5 in ZF mount which is very simple mount off/ new mount on conversion for A mount. If you are super rich you could leitax a Milvus 15mm 2.8!!

But 18mm is more than wide enough for me and was a much humbler price from a pawn shop and half the price of your Laowa converted. It can also use on E mount which was a factor as i use both mounts and have no intention changing that soon. Lightroom lens profiles for the ZF version of the lens work well in correcting any distortion also.

Other alternatives are tamron 15-30 2.8 but getting nearer your Laowa price, a big beastie of a lens and outsize filter systems required.


Well, 18mm isn't really wide enough as I'm quite happy with my Minolta AF 20mm/F2.8 already. The 15mm Milvus looks indeed interesting. However, to spend 2500 EUR for such a rather rarely used lens seems to be a little bit too much.

The Tamron monster is out. I should have stated before that I don't like zoom lenses at all.

stevemark wrote:
I've been using the Samyang a few times, and i never felt attacted to buy one, even though they are very cheap. The Samyang can litteraly "dismantle" itself when in use (glued lenses falling apart). I cannot and will not work with such lenses when doing professional work. In addition the Samyang simply has too much distortion. Corner resolution may be great - if you have a sample with correctly glued lenses...

I am thinking about getting the the Laowa, especially since its designer is a keen photographer and certainly loves designing good lenses.


I have a Samyang fish-eye lens already. Optically it's quite nice but infinity is somewhere between 0.3 and 0.4 m on the distance scale of the lens. It seems to be like a lottery to get a perfect copy.
The price for the Laowa is still quite high. The question is whether the more expensive Laowa lens on my Sony A850 would beat my existing Voigtlaender UWA 12mm LTM lens on a cheaper Sony A7.

Gerald wrote:
If you don't have restrictions on an AF lens, I think the Tamron SP 15-30mm f / 2.8 Di USD would be an interesting option...


I don't have restrictions on AF but on heavy zoom lenses. Wink The Tamron is over 1 kg. Seriously, I don't really like zoom lenses at all.


PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I understand your need for something wider.

Another consideration may the Irix UWA lenses, firefly or more expensive Blackstone. Some good reviews around for them, available as wide as 11mm to 15mm, not available in A mount but can be Leitaxed to A from ZF.2. It depends whether you would want to buy new and fiddle with the warranty by mount swapping though or perhaps pick up second hand.


PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 1:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ultra-wides and vintage lenses don't go well together. I would recommend a recent lens but good quality rectilinear ultra-wides are usually rather expensive.

I use the 12mm Cosina / Voigtländer (1st version in Leica threadmount) with my Sony A7. There are some issues but they can be overcome in post-processing -at least partially. So your best bet could be to buy a second hand Sony A7 and an adapter for your existing lens. I also love the 10mm Cosina / Voigtländer (I have the E-mount version), which can be used without any issues on a Sony A7, but it is quite a bit more expensive.

As for SLR lenses, the one I use the most is the Sigma 15/2.8 fisheye. It delivers superb results for a reasonable price (available used in A mount). Of course it's a fisheye, but the effect is not too obvious if you keep the horizon centered in the frame and avoid straight lines near the edges. Distortion is often invisible in landscape pictures when there are only natural shapes in the frame. If you shoot architecture or want your trees to have straight trunks, you can easily process the files to straighten the lines. I will post some sample images taken with the 15/2.8 fisheye later.

Cheers!

Abbazz


PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 6:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Macca wrote:
I understand your need for something wider.

Another consideration may the Irix UWA lenses, firefly or more expensive Blackstone. Some good reviews around for them, available as wide as 11mm to 15mm, not available in A mount but can be Leitaxed to A from ZF.2. It depends whether you would want to buy new and fiddle with the warranty by mount swapping though or perhaps pick up second hand.


To "Leitax" an Irix is indeed an option. The question is whether the screws are placed like on an original Nikon lens. Will investigate further into this. Thanks for that hint.

Abbazz wrote:
Ultra-wides and vintage lenses don't go well together. I would recommend a recent lens but good quality rectilinear ultra-wides are usually rather expensive.

I use the 12mm Cosina / Voigtländer (1st version in Leica threadmount) with my Sony A7. There are some issues but they can be overcome in post-processing -at least partially. So your best bet could be to buy a second hand Sony A7 and an adapter for your existing lens. I also love the 10mm Cosina / Voigtländer (I have the E-mount version), which can be used without any issues on a Sony A7, but it is quite a bit more expensive.

As for SLR lenses, the one I use the most is the Sigma 15/2.8 fisheye. It delivers superb results for a reasonable price (available used in A mount). Of course it's a fisheye, but the effect is not too obvious if you keep the horizon centered in the frame and avoid straight lines near the edges. Distortion is often invisible in landscape pictures when there are only natural shapes in the frame. If you shoot architecture or want your trees to have straight trunks, you can easily process the files to straighten the lines. I will post some sample images taken with the 15/2.8 fisheye later.


Well, the A7 option would also allow to use my existing Samyang 8mm and Zenitar 16mm fish-eye lenses on FF. My rather big collection of Minolta MF and several Pentax PK lenses would be usable on FF as well. Obviously an additional benefit I didn't consider before. All the necessary adapters are already on hand for my NEX as well.

Maybe you can post some examples of the CV 12mm/A7 combination instead. Curios to see some real world examples with highlight on the problems and how to correct them in PP. Are you using "CornerFix"?


PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Here are some old pictures with the 12mm on Sony A7 (I did some post processing but I didn't use Cornerfix; it was a really dull day):





















And here's the Sigma 15mm fisheye (first picture defished and second one as fishy as it gets) :













Cheers!

Abbazz


PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Thanks a lot, Abbazz! Most probably it may be the best compromise to go for an A7 instead. Those CV12mm pictures look somehow acceptable to me and it would give me all the other benefits I mentioned already before...


PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
You can't go wrong on an A7 imho. Great versatility! I love using my Minolta and Konica lenses on it!

On a sidenote:
I was just reading an article on Petapixel, Laowa is coming with an FE 10-18 manual zoom and a zero distortion 17mm. I know you dislike zooms, but i think that one sounds interesting!

https://petapixel.com/2018/04/20/venus-optics-unveils-4-lenses-10-18mm-100mm-17mm-and-4mm/

Have a great weekend!


PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 10:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
TrueLoveOne wrote:
I was just reading an article on Petapixel, Laowa is coming with an FE 10-18 manual zoom and a zero distortion 17mm. I know you dislike zooms, but i think that one sounds interesting!


Thanks for the recommendation. I think I'm already well equipped with UWA and fish-eye lenses which would all be then usable on the A7.


PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 7:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Very nice results you got Sebastien!!


PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I'm thinking that, for your needs, a manual focus Tamron SP 17/3.5 might work for you. I dunno if Tamron ever made a mount for Minolta AF, but you could select a mount for which you could use an adapter for you Sony. As for it being an MF lens, the fact that it's a 17mm makes focusing a trivial matter. I own one of these lenses and I'm quite pleased with the results I've gotten with it. I don't own an FF digital, so I shoot with it using my film cameras and it does an admirable job with them.

Same goes for the Tokina 17/f3.5 if you can find it in a mount that you can use an adapter with for your Sony. I own a Vivitar 17 made by Tokina and it also is very nice. Again, I've only used it with film cameras. It has some tendency to show some barrel distortion on the edges of the frame, but that can often be fixed in post.


PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
cooltouch wrote:
I'm thinking that, for your needs, a manual focus Tamron SP 17/3.5 might work for you. I dunno if Tamron ever made a mount for Minolta AF, but you could select a mount for which you could use an adapter for you Sony. As for it being an MF lens, the fact that it's a 17mm makes focusing a trivial matter. I own one of these lenses and I'm quite pleased with the results I've gotten with it. I don't own an FF digital, so I shoot with it using my film cameras and it does an admirable job with them.

Same goes for the Tokina 17/f3.5 if you can find it in a mount that you can use an adapter with for your Sony. I own a Vivitar 17 made by Tokina and it also is very nice. Again, I've only used it with film cameras. It has some tendency to show some barrel distortion on the edges of the frame, but that can often be fixed in post.


Michael, thanks for your recommendation. 17mm isn't really wide enough as that corresponds more or less to my existing CV 12mm lens on APS-C. Furthermore I have already a 17 mm lens for the use on my FF DSLR. I think I'll acquire a Sony A7 first. That would enable the use of my existing 8, 12, 15 and 16 mm lenses on FF with the much broader angle of view.

The only remaining question is which type to choose. I think the A7R2 would make most sense for me as the "normal" A7 does only add the versatility but nothing else compared to my existing Sony FF DSLR which shares more or less the same sensor. The lack of the AA-filter in the A7R2 in combination with the newer sensor technology and higher resolution is most probably the better way to go and as the A7R3 is already out the price for the "old" A7R2 went down already.

In light of this my original plan to go for a FF Leica will be either buried or at least deferred until further... Wink


PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Acquiring the camera first is in the logical order. You can then clearly see which of your wide lenses are keepers on the new FF and which of them have to be replaced.
I'll recommend the A7R2. The new A7R3 only adds some new features for AF lenses. It's not a real step ahead if you mainly use MF lenses or don't need the extra speed. But the in-body stabilization is a very big plus over the A7R.
The battery life of the A7R2 is not one of its strong points. If you buy the camera second-hand take care to have min. 2 batteries, as well (it comes with 2 batteries when new).

When I made the upgrade to A7R2 the first thing I've noticed was the corner weakness of some of the wide lenses I owned. On APS-C they were very good but now they were rather disappointing. Replacing them with higher quality ones was the next and the most expensive step after the camera acquisition.
The first positive thing I've noticed was the ability to shoot MF tele lenses hand-held, up to 200mm, with shutter speeds of 1/30-1/60 s. due to the in-body stabilization. I was never able to do it before.


PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 11:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
dan_ wrote:
Acquiring the camera first is in the logical order. You can then clearly see which of your wide lenses are keepers on the new FF and which of them have to be replaced.
I'll recommend the A7R2. The new A7R3 only adds some new features for AF lenses. It's not a real step ahead if you mainly use MF lenses or don't need the extra speed. But the in-body stabilization is a very big plus over the A7R.
The battery life of the A7R2 is not one of its strong points. If you buy the camera second-hand take care to have min. 2 batteries, as well (it comes with 2 batteries when new).

When I made the upgrade to A7R2 the first thing I've noticed was the corner weakness of some of the wide lenses I owned. On APS-C they were very good but now they were rather disappointing. Replacing them with higher quality ones was the next and the most expensive step after the camera acquisition.
The first positive thing I've noticed was the ability to shoot MF tele lenses hand-held, up to 200mm, with shutter speeds of 1/30-1/60 s. due to the in-body stabilization. I was never able to do it before.


Dan, thanks for the advice.

I've just ordered the A7R2 brand new. It should arrive by tomorrow. In light of the battery issue I've ordered a battery grip and two extra batteries together with an external double-charger as well. I think the ones I have already from my NEX will also fit. Therefore totally six copies will be hopefully sufficient.

Additionally I've ordered the necessary flash adapter as I already have a set of totally 4 flashes for my A850 and of course, the LA-EA4 adapter for all my existing Minolta AF lenses. All other adapters I have already on hand (from my NEX).

Already curios about the performance of my wide angles.... Wink


PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Congrats
Congrats, Thomas!
It's a nice camera and your many Minolta AF lenses will have a new life as well. I'm curious of your findings with your wide lenses. Let us know.

However, it's possible that not all the old NEX adapters will fit A7R2. I had to replace half of them when I upgraded from NEX to A7R2. But they were cheap adapters.
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