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Rare Find: Vivitar Series 1 450mm f/4.5 Catadioptric Lens
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2023 1:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have now also a 450/4.5 with nikon-mount. tripodcolar is integrated in tube means special rotatable (18 x 20° segments)T2-mount available and adjustable (after three hex screws are opened to have focus-mark centered. ond must use the rotation mechanisme(two knobs at 180° to move the ring into position. 600/8 has rotatable tripod-collar.

If someone could you show also its sunshade since its lacking here also its container.

Need C/Y-adapter or M42.
Tested focus-range when M-42 + C/Y-adapter used. close a bit below 3m. will check again. lens at 3.5m closest.
but nikon is focussing to 3.24m 26cm nearer than scale is showing at 5m one could expect scale showing past 5m means infinity cannot be reached. one must then have lens adjusted or a short T2 adapter must be made.
Will ask the serviceman since seller had been collimated and cleaned. at 100m on scale infinity mark is touched. a white(feet) laying L going to infinity.stop-mark. maybe someone could explain. green letters=meters.
they learned from 600/800 helicoid-design and seems they made a better focussing-ring.
product images coming. i also have a leaftlet and test made by a german magazine.


PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2023 2:02 am    Post subject: How to adjust infinity Reply with quote

closedistance 3.5m is in reality 3.24m. at 5m scale is showing about 6m. if at 5m scale is showing less lens can reach infinity.
so in my opinion infinity cannot be reached.
have mouned "wrong" noninfinity Ni-M42 and M42-C/Y. farthest distance is exactly 33m.
nearest 2.8m. 3,5m normal on nikon or the mentioned 3.24m.
from these 33m with Ni-C/Y-registerdifference-extension we can calculate if lens can reach infinity on film. for digital adapter must be shorter(not possible for this special one maybe T2) or lens adjusted.
so if extension is reduced by 1mm which distance will be reached.
2. can this be adjusted on focus-ring below rubber-focus-collar? Klaus Schmitt?


PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2023 2:33 am    Post subject: infinity setting-special sunshade from Sonnar CZJ180/400 Reply with quote



I dont understand the white laying L in the feet section aiming to infinity. laying 8 is infinity stop. pls explain.
asking since my 100m subject is about exactly at the L-mark lower end on picture.

2. reversed czj sonnar sunshade since original not included. could you pls show yours?
will test if there is vignetting(maybe not on APS-C and if there is lightloss.
I will explain in details later when i checked exposure with and without shade.


PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2023 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The foot of the "L" is supposed to show you infinity, whether in feet or meter. But infinity setting will vary with temperature.
You might be interested in this:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vivitar-Series-1-OM-T-mount-adapter-for-450mm-f4-5-Mirror-LN-Rare-/373490680381?pageci=b933b88d-6365-4589-bbf4-013f22879aa4&redirect=mobile


PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2023 5:21 pm    Post subject: Infinity is 103m!! then real infinity at stop nonreached? Reply with quote

at the Pre-infinity mark-will show-my lens is focussing to 100m(proved distance)
and at nearer distance around 5m lens is shoing more. in theory if 5m are not below on scale one can never reach infinity.
here are data for you to calculate.
I mounted Nikon 46.5mm register-lens(the cat) on M42-adapter with M42-CY
C/Y 45.5mm register so infinity will never be reached. 46.5 - 45.5mm=10mm extension
i have the sigma 500/7.2 AF Apo IF Zen(nasty sticky coating which i had to remove even from mount) with the same 3.5m closest distance. but at infinity its going beyond.
at infinity i am reaching about 36m with sigma-nikon. maybe 37.5 must recheck at night or measure with triangulation. since i have no daylight rangefinder yet. there is a cheap one for 5-1000m.
Vivitar 450/4.5 is reaching 33m maybe a bit more. must recheck.
On pentaxforums there is a formula how to calculate distances with known data. pls tell me. will i get infinity.!
can the lens be adjusted under the focus-collar?
i have the idea of using a special shorter T2-adapter. yes nonrotatable.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Register variable adapters made based upon new Rafcamera P67-adapter.
have made variable register P67-Ni, EOS, M42 adapters. bEOS has even a standard tripod-collar-mount.
rafcameras short, most probably also the normal P67-P6(M68 in reality)-adapter also has variability. pls lets discuss these two facts further in pentaxforums where one can also read about that formula.
weather changed to bad cannot check my famous 7.8km TV-Tower named St. Chrischona Basel. see als roundshot-panoramas from the weathercam inside www.roundshot.ch no tower seen obviously. but i was up on to. using the 600/8 cat bad sight towards alps. was 1981 standing on the base outside alone for 90min shooting where later the pylon was mounted.
yes will also publish real images and comparisons. here and there. already have some with nonreaching infinity 135 and 200 P67 lenses. its sharp but not sharp enough.
----------------------------------------------------------------
UPDATE 450/4.5 Nikon original rotating adapter.
at a bit(less than mm before infinity mark(laying L) 103m is reached. i could focus with split on thick antenna.
at close 5m real(5r) and on scale (5s):
5S: 4,4m- 5r: exact inbetween 15 and 29 feet, between 5 and 7m more towards 5m
on contax/Yashica. 10mm extension(wrong adapter) exact 34m is reached. closest at 3.5m(feet not mentioned):2.8m

distance scales
Meters 3.5- 5- 7-10-15-25- 50- infinity
Feet 12 15 20 30 50 100 200 infinity
approx. positions shown
Will my 450/4.5 reach infinity? i have great doubts.
I know nasty it is when 400m doesnt reach moon. not perfectly sharp solstice. wasnt prepaired to adjust T-noflexar-system.


PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2023 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote



The lens helical is positioned beyond the infinity mark. Perhaps the helical has been disassembled and reassembled incorrectly? (A common problem)


PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 1:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

103m is less than 1mm infront of the starting laying L. hope i neednt show. can i adjust infinity when removing rubber collar?
hope to aim to my 7.8km target soon. sky covered.
I will now do the same 10mm or whater extension by adding nonmatching adapter to other lenses and measure distance at infinity stop. have multiple 300mm(p67) 200. 135mm a bit short. 200mm could be very interesting since Noflexar 200/3.8 follow focus goes beyond infinity. have seen it but no image taken. focus-wheel tightening at exact distance below stop almost impossible. but could use 400mm on B-system where i have bellows. Infinity adjusted to go extraterrestrial(same on system C and D. have C, D would have finefocus again. older than B tubesystem has variable register and T-Noflexar 400/5.6 covers 6x6 if tube would be wider(MF tube-system IS wider) very sharp head in the FF-corners. 6x6 not yet tested. needs new adapter since rear element not going in. Noflexar achromat working. sharp in center.
be aware: filter is 35.5mm not 35mm like on cameraquest. see image of his. stephen is informed.


PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

103m is less than 1mm infront of the starting laying L. hope i neednt show. can i adjust infinity when removing rubber collar?
hope to aim to my 7.8km target soon. sky covered.
I will now do the same 10mm or whater extension by adding nonmatching adapter to other lenses and measure distance at infinity stop. have multiple 300mm(p67) 200. 135mm a bit short. 200mm could be very interesting since Noflexar 200/3.8 follow focus goes beyond infinity. have seen it but no image taken. focus-wheel tightening at exact distance below stop almost impossible. but could use 400mm on B-system where i have bellows. Infinity adjusted to go extraterrestrial(same on system C and D. have C, D would have finefocus again. older than B tubesystem has variable register and T-Noflexar 400/5.6 covers 6x6 if tube would be wider(MF tube-system IS wider) very sharp head in the FF-corners. 6x6 not yet tested. needs new adapter since rear element not going in. Noflexar achromat working. sharp in center.
be aware: filter is 35.5mm not 35mm like on cameraquest. see image of his. stephen is informed.

UPDATE: GREAT NEWS
1. 103m target(Antenna with pigions) Tested with loupe on Nikon FE2
a) 500/7.2 split is a pain, sky covered an EV 9, its exactly aligned with laying L. from there to stop 3.5mm only.
helicoid very smooth freely turning no wonder AF. Sigma 450/4.5 finefocussing a joy since perfectly stiff.
surprise: Full 9mm til stop. target a bit at left of L. helicoid turning the other way round.
So i dont need to worry. lens will reach infinity and scale "wrong" since lens has varying focus since temperature-sensitive.
Joy no 2: when handholding set tripodmount-socket to a comfortable position at left side. at around 90°. there are 18x 20° rotating-segments. Most genious adapter with two knobs to be pushed.
next is testing by how much aperture is darkened when using the wrongly mounted sonnar 86/95 sunshade. be aware it has a special mount. not compatible with 0.75 filteradapters. will try to find a front-cap or let an adapter made. dont have original sunshade. read its 76mm. i wonder why since i dont see a thread.
also container needed.
I wonder if i must remove UV filter when ND filter must be used. or stacking. trying better than asking.
decades ago i read ND filters will degrade image.
NB: heliopan has special digital filter. wonder what its secret.


Last edited by europanorama on Wed Jan 25, 2023 2:07 pm; edited 1 time in total


PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

visualopsins wrote:
[img]
The lens helical is positioned beyond the infinity mark. Perhaps the helical has been disassembled and reassembled incorrectly? (A common problem)

I think mirror lenses are designed in this way to compensate the focus shift on temperature change.


PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

calvin83 wrote:
visualopsins wrote:
[img]
The lens helical is positioned beyond the infinity mark. Perhaps the helical has been disassembled and reassembled incorrectly? (A common problem)

I think mirror lenses are designed in this way to compensate the focus shift on temperature change.


That has always been my understanding (on long tele lenses in general, not just mirror lenses).

The short leg of the "L" indicates where the optical infinity position of the lens focus grip is under a stable and uniform normal ambient & lens barrel temperature (presumably 20C / 68F). As the temperature changes this can mean the focus grip has to be rotated beyond the short leg of the "L" in order to obtain optical infinity; the position of the actual "∞" symbol indicates the mechanical limit of rotation of the focus grip beyond the "normal temperature" infinity mark of the short leg of the "L".

I am not sure which way around temperature affects the infinity focus point of the lens (i.e. longer with an increase or decrease in temperature) because there are multiple factors involved such as:

- A change in the optical refractive index of the air outside the lens due to cold air being denser, warm air being less dense
- A change in the optical refractive index of the air contained inside the lens due to the temperature
- A change in the physical barrel dimensions due to the metals contracting in cold conditions, expanding in hot conditions

The combined effect of these will be hard to predict as the lens barrel may warm up and expand in strong sunny conditions whilst the outside air temperature may still be low. Furthermore the temperature of the air inside the lens may lag the outside temperature changes by some considerable margin, depending on usage conditions (take out of a warm vehicle into cold outside air etc.)

In theory all this applies to normal and wide-angle lenses as well, but the long focal length and longer mechanical dimensions of tele lenses make it much more noticeable, hence the "⟝∞" mark is usually only found on longer tele lenses, in my experience...


PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RokkorDoctor wrote:


I am not sure which way around temperature affects the infinity focus point of the lens (i.e. longer with an increase or decrease in temperature) because there are multiple factors involved such as:

- A change in the optical refractive index of the air outside the lens due to cold air being denser, warm air being less dense
- A change in the optical refractive index of the air contained inside the lens due to the temperature
- A change in the physical barrel dimensions due to the metals contracting in cold conditions, expanding in hot conditions

The combined effect of these will be hard to predict as the lens barrel may warm up and expand in strong sunny conditions whilst the outside air temperature may still be low. Furthermore the temperature of the air inside the lens may lag the outside temperature changes by some considerable margin, depending on usage conditions (take out of a warm vehicle into cold outside air etc.)


Yeah, these are all relevant points, I feel like there is a conclusive answer out there amongst the stuff I've read but it just escapes my grasp right now. Something which considers both refracting and primary mirror-based lenses. I have some guesses, like refracting lenses often being split up into multiple elements for the 'largest' parts (e.g. EF 500mm f4), thus distributing the effect, but really not able to put weight on it. I have read Canon technicians advise their refracting super-telephotos need a warm up time anyway.

Here's what Canon Lens Work III says which notes things will change-




When doing some reading in astronomy field, where reflecting telescopes play a big part, you get some interesting answers mirroring (hah) what you say -

Quote:
For instance a classical Schmidt-Cassegrain telescope (SCT) optical tube assembly (OTA) made of aluminum will shrink with drooping[sic] temperature. This will eventually bring both, primary and secondary, mirrors closer to each other.

The typical optical magnification m provided by both mirrors is about 5x for a SCT design, the related change in focus will be function of m2 leading to a factor 25x.

This means that for each micron of OTA shrinkage, the telescope focus shifts by as much as 25 microns.


https://www.innovationsforesight.com/education/how-much-focus-error-is-too-much/

OTA being optical tube assembly.

The comment works here as photographic mirror lenses follow the Cassegrain design of fast primary with strong, 'multiplying' negative secondary to get a long focal length. But I don't think that's all there is to it.


PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

eggplant wrote:
... I have read Canon technicians advise their refracting super-telephotos need a warm up time anyway.


From memory I recall reading somewhere (may have been one of Stephan's posts) that this may have to do with temperature variations within the air inside the lens, which can cause internal convection air currents. In the very large lenses we are talking about (super-telephotos) this can lead to a small degree of image softening not unlike one experienced by photographing through the shimmering air above a hot road surface (especially at large apertures I assume.)

Presumably allowing for a warm-up time as suggested by the Canon technicians will ensure a more homogenous air temperature inside the lens and therefore less internal convection currents...

EDIT: Incidentally, assuming the lens is allowed to reach a constant internal temperature throughout, equal to the outside air temperature, it should in theory be possible to mechanically compensate the lens for the effects of expansion/contraction & changing refractive indexes. But this would only work if everything is allowed to stabilise at a uniform temperature equal to the outside air temperature.