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Helios-44M-4 Focus ring problem
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PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2016 12:22 pm    Post subject: Helios-44M-4 Focus ring problem Reply with quote

I bought a used Helios-44M-4 and found out that the focus ring does not turn smoothly on the entire range but slips on two specific distance points. I am mostly going to use it at infinity so I probably will not need to turn the focus ring often but is there a way to fix this without causing any other problem?


PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2016 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Probably the screws that hold the focus ring are loose. You have access to these screws after unscrewing the name ring.


PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2016 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How do I remove the name ring?

Last edited by kyrcy on Sat May 21, 2016 1:49 pm; edited 3 times in total


PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2016 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are two holes on the name ring. Insert a lens spanner or something similar into the holes and turn it counter-clockwise.


PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2016 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is it necessary to disassemble the lens completely in order to fix the focus ring as some tutorials on YouTube seem to indicate?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=011WKuJUv-s

If this is not nesessary what I do next after removing the name ring?


PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2016 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kyrcy wrote:
Is it necessary to disassemble the lens completely in order to fix the focus ring as some tutorials on YouTube seem to indicate?


No, unscrewing the name ring is immediate. You need to disassemble the lens only if you need to re-lubricate the focusing helicoids.


kyrcy wrote:
If this is not nesessary what I do next after removing the name ring?

Simply tighten the screws which are loose. The photo below shows the small screws that need to be tightened.



PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2016 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I need to figure out how to unscrew the name cover because I don't have a lens spanner. I tried using a small screwdriver to turn it counter-clockwise, but the holes are too small and it does not seem to turn. And I don't want to force it not to scratch it.


PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2016 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Look for something round and of similar dimension as the name ring. For such occasions I got myself a few rubber sink plugs (I'm not sure it's the correct word, but it's a piece of round rubber you put in the sink to allow water to stay in it Wink ). They are the best tools for unscrewing name rings - the tricky part is that you need one that is quite similar diameter as the name ring. If the front lens of the lens collide with rubber - you could always cut out the centre piece of the plug.


PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2016 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kyrcy wrote:
I need to figure out how to unscrew the name cover because I don't have a lens spanner. I tried using a small screwdriver to turn it counter-clockwise, but the holes are too small and it does not seem to turn. And I don't want to force it not to scratch it.


It's smarter just to spend $12 and buy the spanner: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pro-DSLR-Lens-Spanner-Wrench-Opening-Tool-For-Camera-Repair-open-Tools-25-120mm-/222024521551?hash=item33b1b1574f

That is the same one I have used with ease.


PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2016 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I tested the lens during the day and infinity focus seemed fine. But I took some photos of the moon tonight and it is out of focus. I am using the lens with an adapter on a Sony E-Mount mirorless. To achieve focus I need to unscrew the lens on the adapter about 4-5mm. Is infinity focus something that can be fixed easily?


PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2016 12:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Usually.

And for what it's worth these lenses are pretty straight forward to work on. You couldn't really have chosen an easier lens to play with initially. Maybe a Pentacon 50mm would be just as straight forward

Get your self a spanner, save the headache, plus you'll have the tool required for every other lens there after Wink

For what it's worth, I've used the rear of a M42 lens cap with some thick tape to act as a spanner previous.


PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2016 5:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I use electrical tape on a similar sized object, pill bottle for instance, with the cap off, do a wrap of tape part on, and part off, make sure to stretch the tape some, then pull some extra tape off and wrap it sticky side out, stick it to the ID ring, a bit of pressure and turn, the ring usually comes off easily.


PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2016 6:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have been told in a different forum that I need to disassemble the lens completely and that the three screws that are visible after removing the name plate do not secure the focus ring. Also I found the following video that shows the same problem and is again about full disassembly of the lens:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=011WKuJUv-s

Can anyone clarify?


PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2016 1:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The problem is that none of us have the lens in front of us, so we're all guessing based on what you've told us, and past experience.
There is no way to guarantee what the actual issue is.
The 2 most likely causes are:
The focus ring is slipping because of loose screws.
Or because the lube has turned into a waxy state, it could alternate between dampened and not dampened which could also resemble the other issue.

Lightly squeeze the lens(front to back) and turn the focus ring, if it's a lube issue, the lens should move lock to lock relitivly smoothly.
If the screws are loose, I would expect to have the same inconsistent feel, and the Helicoid won't extend/retract.


PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2016 11:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kyrcy wrote:
I have been told in a different forum that I need to disassemble the lens completely and that the three screws that are visible after removing the name plate do not secure the focus ring. Also I found the following video that shows the same problem and is again about full disassembly of the lens:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=011WKuJUv-s

Can anyone clarify?


Thank you for asking for our help!


PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2016 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lightshow wrote:
The problem is that none of us have the lens in front of us, so we're all guessing based on what you've told us, and past experience.
There is no way to guarantee what the actual issue is.
The 2 most likely causes are:
The focus ring is slipping because of loose screws.
Or because the lube has turned into a waxy state, it could alternate between dampened and not dampened which could also resemble the other issue.

Lightly squeeze the lens(front to back) and turn the focus ring, if it's a lube issue, the lens should move lock to lock relitivly smoothly.
If the screws are loose, I would expect to have the same inconsistent feel, and the Helicoid won't extend/retract.


If I squeeze the lens (front to back) and turn the focus ring the lens move lock to lock relatively smoothly (but not perfectly). Also it feels that if I turn the focus back and front there is a slight play. And as I already wrote the lens no longer reaches infinity.

Gerald wrote:
kyrcy wrote:
I have been told in a different forum that I need to disassemble the lens completely and that the three screws that are visible after removing the name plate do not secure the focus ring. Also I found the following video that shows the same problem and is again about full disassembly of the lens:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=011WKuJUv-s

Can anyone clarify?


Thank you for asking for our help!


I appreciate everyone's help however when I receive conflicting information I try to ask again to make sure. It seems that the same problem is solved differently in different versions of the lens. I have a 44m-4 made by Valdai.


PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2016 3:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kyrcy wrote:
Lightshow wrote:
The problem is that none of us have the lens in front of us, so we're all guessing based on what you've told us, and past experience.
There is no way to guarantee what the actual issue is.
The 2 most likely causes are:
The focus ring is slipping because of loose screws.
Or because the lube has turned into a waxy state, it could alternate between dampened and not dampened which could also resemble the other issue.

Lightly squeeze the lens(front to back) and turn the focus ring, if it's a lube issue, the lens should move lock to lock relitivly smoothly.
If the screws are loose, I would expect to have the same inconsistent feel, and the Helicoid won't extend/retract.


If I squeeze the lens (front to back) and turn the focus ring the lens move lock to lock relatively smoothly (but not perfectly). Also it feels that if I turn the focus back and front there is a slight play. And as I already wrote the lens no longer reaches infinity.

Gerald wrote:
kyrcy wrote:
I have been told in a different forum that I need to disassemble the lens completely and that the three screws that are visible after removing the name plate do not secure the focus ring. Also I found the following video that shows the same problem and is again about full disassembly of the lens:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=011WKuJUv-s

Can anyone clarify?


Thank you for asking for our help!


I appreciate everyone's help however when I receive conflicting information I try to ask again to make sure. It seems that the same problem is solved differently in different versions of the lens. I have a 44m-4 made by Valdai.

Sounds like it's mostly a lube problem, and in relubing it you'll take care of both any loose screws and the infinity issue when you reassemble the lens, or have it done.


PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2016 4:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lightshow wrote:
Sounds like it's mostly a lube problem, and in relubing it you'll take care of both any loose screws and the infinity issue when you reassemble the lens, or have it done.

Will relubing require a complete disassemble of the lens?


PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2016 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kyrcy wrote:
Lightshow wrote:
Sounds like it's mostly a lube problem, and in relubing it you'll take care of both any loose screws and the infinity issue when you reassemble the lens, or have it done.

Will relubing require a complete disassemble of the lens?

A good portion for sure.
If you don't have the courage nor skills to tackle the lens, there are those who can, They will charge about $100 plus/minus a few to do it, but, that's higher than the cost of the lens and won't be worth it unless it is a good one.
You can also ask here: http://forum.mflenses.com/equipment-care-and-repairs-f6.html and see if anyone with experience is willing to do it for less/free?
There is a thread with a list of repair/service techs.


PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2016 4:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gerald wrote:
kyrcy wrote:
Is it necessary to disassemble the lens completely in order to fix the focus ring as some tutorials on YouTube seem to indicate?


No, unscrewing the name ring is immediate. You need to disassemble the lens only if you need to re-lubricate the focusing helicoids.


kyrcy wrote:
If this is not nesessary what I do next after removing the name ring?

Simply tighten the screws which are loose. The photo below shows the small screws that need to be tightened.


Out of curiosity I managed to remove the name ring. I used the plastic cover for the back of the lens (M42) with some double sided tape and applied some pressure. After removing the name ring completely I see the same picture as the photo above. Three sets of screws and all appear in place and fully tighten. Any ideas?


PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2016 10:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is compete tutor how to disasemble 44-m4 (in russian):http://nukemall.livejournal.com/59329.html
If you fave any questions in translation, please ask, I'll try to help.


PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2016 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MaXXXic wrote:
Here is compete tutor how to disasemble 44-m4 (in russian):http://nukemall.livejournal.com/59329.html
If you fave any questions in translation, please ask, I'll try to help.

The translation using Google is not very good. The photos are useful but there are a few things I don't really understand.


PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2016 10:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The photos are useful but there are a few things I don't really understand.

Which ones? There are some photosleng words there...

1) Brief guide to the almost complete (except lense block) disassembly, cleaning, lubrication and subsequent assembly with the lens alignment "Helios-44M-4", and with certain reservations (for example, the issue of lenses 90s decorative ring is plastic with fixators) can be used with lenses "Helios-44M-5, M-6, M-7".
2) First, you need to unscrew the decorative ring in the front. I am using such kind of a "tool":
3) A bottle, a thick double-sided adhesive tape pasted. Inserted into the funnel in front of the front lens is pressed and turns until the ring does not get out.
4)Screws holding the cylinder with a screw for attaching the filter became available.
Unscrew them, remove the cylinder:
5)After this, the screws mounting lense block and fastening the focusing ring to the helicoid are available. Unscrew the fastening screws and take out his lense block.
6) Now you can turn the lens, unscrew the screws and remove the mounting flange:
7)Remove the diaphragm setting ring (carefully underneath the ball fixing the aperture ring in semi-positions, which should be carefully removed and, for example, paste a piece of adhesive tape in order not rolled away).
8)Under the aperture setting ring trere are three screws. They need to unscrew and remove the rear part of the lens.
9)Put the mark at position of the inner ring of the helicoid relative to the base when focusing at infinity (you can see step inside the lens in the photo above? Now make a mark with sharp screwdriver on the outer wall).
Now you can unscrew the screws that connect the focusing helicoid ring and remove it:
10)Unscrew the screws fastening rails, remove them, dismount the helicoid in two parts:
11)Clean the old grease with rag + gasoline, then wash under the tap toothbrush with "fairy" dishwashing liquid, dry without wiping.
12)Put on a new Grease (I usually use silicone grease SR-180) and reassemble. A lot of grease is not necessary, enough to fill about 2/3 of the threads on both parts to be connected.
First, grease and screwed into the outer ring of the helicoid (brass) in the base until stop, twist a few times back and forth to "sold" grease twirl again to stop and unscrew half a turn. Lubricates and is screwed into the inner ring, so that if it enters the grooves for the guide to the places of their installation depth of approximately corresponded previously suffered label "infinity" (plus-minus a millimeter does not mean, if more - you can rotate the outer ring). Grease grooves, fasten the rails. Be sure when rotating the outer ring, the inner ring reaches to the mark, and even a little "flies" by the rotation of the outer ring. We put on the label and fasten the focus ring to the appropriate position (at "infinity", guided by the limiter).

If the focusing helicoid "backlash" (beginning of the movement of the inner ring noticeably lags behind external) - it is necessary to check the guides, often called the play of their wear and tear, strain or incorrect (with the rotation about the longitudinal axis) setting. To compensate for the wear in one of the rails has a slot that you can re-tight with a little screwdriver.

Reassemle the lens to the point here:
13)And put on the camera for alignment. Check for "infinity" on the far well-visible objects (more than 100m). Ideally, of course, use the camera with the ability to zoom with Live View.
If the "infinity" is not where it must be, is necessary to do:
-with "over infinity" (on a scale of, for example, about ten meters and infinity already is) - reserve where "infinity" was found, weaken the screws, turn the ring in this position, tighten;
-with "under infinity" (on the scale, "infinity", but in reality - no) - weaken the screws, turn the ring to a smaller distance, tighten, check;
Check the "infinity" with control shoot, complete the assembly.


PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2016 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since I don't have much experience with disassembly I am not sure if I should attempt it. The Helios that I have looks like new and probably the problem was caused because it was not used for many years. I am not sure if the lens will need re-greasing or adjusting focus. I am thinking if I should take it to a camera shop for repair.