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Is this a 'Real' Sonnar 1.5/50?
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2016 7:21 pm    Post subject: Is this a 'Real' Sonnar 1.5/50? Reply with quote

I've recently finally made the switch/addition of mirrorless camera, and I'm looking to get into the rangefinder lens world.
I've been considering buying this m39 Sonnar for seemingly good price, but I'm a novice when it comes to these lenses.
I've noticed there's some 'fakes' and partial fakes out there, so can anyone tell me if this is the real deal?

And if so, is $250 a decent price on it? Any input appreciated. Thanks in advance





PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2016 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have no idea, but it's in lovely condition.

Last edited by iangreenhalgh1 on Wed Aug 26, 2020 2:18 pm; edited 1 time in total


PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2016 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It looks like a post war soviet Sonnar ( design and serial number) .
There are some articles on LTM Sonnars on the web.


PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2016 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmmm so that sounds like conflicting opinions? I'll hold out until I find out for certain I guess. I thought the commas instead of periods indicate German made, but who knows. Thanks for the insight


PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2016 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For reference, here's nice collection of pictures of J-3 variations.
If the source is unknown, I would be cautious.

http://sovietcams.com/index.php?-1123596578


PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2016 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It might be a PT1630:

http://sovietcams.com/index.php?-1123596578

30 serial Zeiss lenses do exist, but so do a lot of fakes.


PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2016 10:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.klassik-cameras.de/Zeiss_Fakes.html


PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2016 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To me the engraving just doesn't seem to have the crispness I would expect from an actual pre-DDR Jena lens. Still, I am no expert.

Check for yourself...

http://www.artaphot.ch/zeiss/objektive/203-sonnar-5cm-1-1-5


PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2016 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

After looking closely at the fakes site and comparing I vote fake.


PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2016 6:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Serial number according to Thiele CYJ II Jena II book it is a Biotar 2/5.8cm made 1947,
but not Sonnar (batch of 1500, serial lies in that range). From that it could be fake.

IF it is real, it would be a rare one, as it is in LTM mount


PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2016 7:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guess it is a well done fake.
The engraved 5 ist different from the usual Zeiss engraved 5

Klaus


PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2016 7:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

newst wrote:
To me the engraving just doesn't seem to have the crispness I would expect from an actual pre-DDR Jena lens. Still, I am no expert.

Check for yourself...

http://www.artaphot.ch/zeiss/objektive/203-sonnar-5cm-1-1-5


This is the Stevemark's site.
It is said that the german lenses have a brown violet coating and the soviet a blueish one.


PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2016 8:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I vote fake, PT1630 has far too many similarities.


PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2016 5:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ask here with pictures:
https://www.leicaplace.com/forums/leica-m-and-ltm-lenses.12/

Brian knows these really well Smile

1945-1949 say the serial, so the soviets had the factory, but still produced lenses with this sort of marking for a time, is my understanding. If it's one of those, or even just a good J3, 250 is not out of line, these days.

As leemlk noted, here is good reference:
http://www.klassik-cameras.de/Zeiss_Fakes.html

Triangle is good and lettering not too big. Can't see if the T is red. Or if it has m or M.

Oh, black front ring means it's not likely real.

OK I say it's fake too, but still might be a good lens Smile

OP: If you want a CZJ 50/1.5 you can buy in Contax RF mount for not too much and use this:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Contax-RF-Nikon-S-Mount-to-Sony-NEX-E-Mount-Adapter-Adjusted-to-Perfect-Infinity-/281974012327?hash=item41a6f5f9a7:g:1CQAAOSwvFZW7x5q

or just grab this before somebody else does:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Canon-50mm-f-1-5-Lens-Zeiss-Sonnar-Bokeh-Design-in-Leica-Screw-Mount-M39-EXC-/162011034448?hash=item25b89c3350:g:AQwAAOSwZ8ZW7EgX


PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2016 8:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have both original CZJ Sonnar 1.5/50 and a couple of J3s, one 1950s, one 1960s. I honestly can't tell them apart, the Russians are as good as the original.

One thing you can do with the Contax/Kiev mount ones is swap the optical block into an M39 barrel - they are a direct fit. The M39 barrel can come from a J3, J8, I-26, I-61, any of the Russian 50s in M39 with the rigid barrel.

Here 's the best of the bunch - the postwar Opton version:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Zeiss-Opton-Sonar-50mm-f1-5-lens-for-Contax-I-and-II-and-Kiev-Rangefinders-/281979018259?hash=item41a7425c13:g:yIkAAOSwa-dWsR5s

For 100ukp, I'd snap this up myself if I had the funds.


PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2016 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have two post-war W-Germany version and one Canon 50/1.5. Anyone of them is good as long as you get one in good condition. Wink


PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2016 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When looking at early postwar "Carl Zeiss Jena" stuff (and their russian copies) it is important to know, that the Russians started their copying work gradually. The very first batches included mainly German parts taken from Germany and brought to the Soviet Union. Later, when the original German parts were used up, they were replaced by "genuine" Soviet parts. This means that even a "Russian" lens or camera built around 1950 may contain original German parts from WWII (or even from before WWII!).

I had a lengthy discussion about these facts with Henry Scherer (www.zeisscamera.com) and with a renown German craftsman from the Jena area who knows the facts well.

Stephan


PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2016 3:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stevemark wrote:
When looking at early postwar "Carl Zeiss Jena" stuff (and their russian copies) it is important to know, that the Russians started their copying work gradually. The very first batches included mainly German parts taken from Germany and brought to the Soviet Union. Later, when the original German parts were used up, they were replaced by "genuine" Soviet parts. This means that even a "Russian" lens or camera built around 1950 may contain original German parts from WWII (or even from before WWII!).

I had a lengthy discussion about these facts with Henry Scherer (www.zeisscamera.com) and with a renown German craftsman from the Jena area who knows the facts well.

Stephan


Absolutely true. Still I can't think of any combination of CZJ and Soviet parts that would result in a CZJ branded Sonnar with a serial number from a Biotar. To me the preponderance of the evidence points toward fake, which was the OP's initial question.


PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2016 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

it is a J3 with sonnar front ring , the same J3 that i have , also the coating is the same blu/violet
#1


#2

#3


#4

the same bl
#5

u/
#6


PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2016 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

newst wrote:

...
Still I can't think of any combination of CZJ and Soviet parts that would result in a CZJ branded Sonnar with a serial number from a Biotar. To me the preponderance of the evidence points toward fake, which was the OP's initial question.


Yes, of course. I've added just a few general remarks - there are quite a few interesting items out there which are reflecting the turbulent CZJ history in the early postwar period.

To give an example: My own Contax III, carefully restored by Henry Scherer (contaxcamera.com), turned out to be a mix of mostly late-war Zeiss Jena parts and a very early, experimental post-war shutter - either made in Germany or by German craftsmen in Russia. It came with a very rare war-time coated and civilian Sonnar 5cm 1:1.5 (according to Henry Scherer). The set has a traceable history inside Switzerland; it was possibly sold soon after WWII to Switzerland, since Germany (and/or the Soviet Union) were in desperate need for "hard money" (=Swiss Francs).

Stephan


PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The body is definately from Jupiter-3 lens with added barrel with Sonnar engraving.
As for the glass - it could have Sonnar's glass, but I'm shure It's not.

As for the price - I wouldn't pay for this lens 250$, It seems like It's regular Jupiter-3 lens. Price for M39 version on ebay starts from 150$ up to 200-220$ for lenses in exc. condition.
So I think reasonable option will be to buy Jupiter-3 and you don't need to pay extra money for such kind of fake Sonnar.

But in case if you want to but the CZJ Sonnar, I think here is the original one - http://www.ebay.com/itm/Carl-Zeiss-Jena-Sonnar-1-5-50-T-Lens-Rare-Leica-L39-Mount-/381587907960?hash=item58d8696578:g:pT4AAOSwN81WErjz


PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looks like a nice Jupiter-3, $120 I woudl pay for it max.


PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That looks fake to my eyes. Even the front cap looks fake to me.


PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2016 11:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A fake too, guys - or a mongrel?

Just been listed this morning.
http://www.ebay.de/itm/Carl-Zeiss-Jena-Nr-3057780-Sonnar-1-1-5-f-5-cm-T-/391573080308?hash=item5b2b9308f4:g:KtUAAOSwmfhX54jo


PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2016 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Marek wrote:
A fake too, guys - or a mongrel?

Just been listed this morning.
http://www.ebay.de/itm/Carl-Zeiss-Jena-Nr-3057780-Sonnar-1-1-5-f-5-cm-T-/391573080308?hash=item5b2b9308f4:g:KtUAAOSwmfhX54jo



In my admittedly not expert opinion, a fake.

1. It says it is a Zeiss Jena lens but the red T mark is a Zeiss Opton coating trademark, Jena couldn't use it.

2. The barrel looks like it is from an FSU rigid 50mm LTM lens.

3. I have seen Zeiss Sonnars in Contax mount and read that a ridiculously small number were produced in LTM mount. I have no clue what mount this lens has, possibly from a movie camera.

Another similar fraud in LTM mount.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Carl-Zeiss-Sonnar-1-5-50mm-2727272-lens-with-Sony-NEX-E-mount-/371572751943?hash=item5683763e47:g:y2sAAOSwAuNW4ypo