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StillSanj
Joined: 21 Apr 2015 Posts: 412 Location: United States
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Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2016 7:21 pm Post subject: Is this a 'Real' Sonnar 1.5/50? |
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StillSanj wrote:
I've recently finally made the switch/addition of mirrorless camera, and I'm looking to get into the rangefinder lens world.
I've been considering buying this m39 Sonnar for seemingly good price, but I'm a novice when it comes to these lenses.
I've noticed there's some 'fakes' and partial fakes out there, so can anyone tell me if this is the real deal?
And if so, is $250 a decent price on it? Any input appreciated. Thanks in advance
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iangreenhalgh1
Joined: 18 Mar 2011 Posts: 15685
Expire: 2014-01-07
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Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2016 7:41 pm Post subject: |
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iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
I have no idea, but it's in lovely condition. _________________ I don't care who designed it, who made it or what country it comes from - I just enjoy using it!
Last edited by iangreenhalgh1 on Wed Aug 26, 2020 2:18 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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memetph
Joined: 01 Dec 2013 Posts: 942 Location: Poland
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Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2016 7:49 pm Post subject: |
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memetph wrote:
It looks like a post war soviet Sonnar ( design and serial number) .
There are some articles on LTM Sonnars on the web. |
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StillSanj
Joined: 21 Apr 2015 Posts: 412 Location: United States
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Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2016 8:01 pm Post subject: |
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StillSanj wrote:
Hmmm so that sounds like conflicting opinions? I'll hold out until I find out for certain I guess. I thought the commas instead of periods indicate German made, but who knows. Thanks for the insight |
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Gamera
Joined: 16 Feb 2014 Posts: 86 Location: Scandinavia
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Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2016 8:17 pm Post subject: |
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Gamera wrote:
For reference, here's nice collection of pictures of J-3 variations.
If the source is unknown, I would be cautious.
http://sovietcams.com/index.php?-1123596578 |
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iangreenhalgh1
Joined: 18 Mar 2011 Posts: 15685
Expire: 2014-01-07
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Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2016 9:08 pm Post subject: |
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iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
It might be a PT1630:
http://sovietcams.com/index.php?-1123596578
30 serial Zeiss lenses do exist, but so do a lot of fakes. _________________ I don't care who designed it, who made it or what country it comes from - I just enjoy using it! |
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leemik
Joined: 21 Feb 2011 Posts: 107 Location: Quincy, MA
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Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2016 10:37 pm Post subject: |
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leemik wrote:
http://www.klassik-cameras.de/Zeiss_Fakes.html |
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newst
Joined: 21 Oct 2014 Posts: 617 Location: Troy, MI USA
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Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2016 10:40 pm Post subject: |
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newst wrote:
To me the engraving just doesn't seem to have the crispness I would expect from an actual pre-DDR Jena lens. Still, I am no expert.
Check for yourself...
http://www.artaphot.ch/zeiss/objektive/203-sonnar-5cm-1-1-5 _________________ Steve
Just an armadillo on the shoulder of the information superhighway. |
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jamaeolus
Joined: 19 Mar 2014 Posts: 2913 Location: Eugene
Expire: 2015-08-20
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Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2016 11:16 pm Post subject: |
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jamaeolus wrote:
After looking closely at the fakes site and comparing I vote fake. _________________ photos are moments frozen in time |
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kds315*
Joined: 12 Mar 2008 Posts: 16497 Location: Weinheim, Germany
Expire: 2021-03-09
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Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2016 6:42 am Post subject: |
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kds315* wrote:
Serial number according to Thiele CYJ II Jena II book it is a Biotar 2/5.8cm made 1947,
but not Sonnar (batch of 1500, serial lies in that range). From that it could be fake.
IF it is real, it would be a rare one, as it is in LTM mount _________________ Klaus - Admin
"S'il vient a point, me souviendra" [Thomas Bohier (1460-1523)]
http://www.macrolenses.de for macro and special lens info
http://www.pbase.com/kds315/uv_photos for UV Images and lens/filter info
https://www.flickr.com/photos/kds315/albums my albums using various lenses
http://photographyoftheinvisibleworld.blogspot.com/ my UV BLOG
http://www.travelmeetsfood.com/blog Food + Travel BLOG
https://galeriafotografia.com Architecture + Drone photography
Currently most FAV lens(es):
X80QF f3.2/80mm
Hypergon f11/26mm
ELCAN UV f5.6/52mm
Zeiss UV-Planar f4/60mm
Zeiss UV-Planar f2/62mm
Lomo Уфар-12 f2.5/41mm
Lomo Зуфар-2 f4.0/350mm
Lomo ZIKAR-1A f1.2/100mm
Nikon UV Nikkor f4.5/105mm
Zeiss UV-Sonnar f4.3/105mm
CERCO UV-VIS-NIR f1.8/45mm
CERCO UV-VIS-NIR f4.1/94mm
CERCO UV-VIS-NIR f2.8/100mm
Steinheil Quarzobjektiv f1.8/50mm
Pentax Quartz Takumar f3.5/85mm
Carl Zeiss Jena UV-Objektiv f4/60mm
NYE OPTICAL Lyman-Alpha II f1.1/90mm
NYE OPTICAL Lyman-Alpha I f2.8/200mm
COASTAL OPTICS f4/60mm UV-VIS-IR Apo
COASTAL OPTICS f4.5/105mm UV-Micro-Apo
Pentax Ultra-Achromatic Takumar f4.5/85mm
Pentax Ultra-Achromatic Takumar f5.6/300mm
Rodenstock UV-Rodagon f5.6/60mm + 105mm + 150mm
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exaklaus
Joined: 11 Aug 2009 Posts: 1633 Location: Niederrhein, Germany
Expire: 2011-12-02
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Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2016 7:18 am Post subject: |
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exaklaus wrote:
Guess it is a well done fake.
The engraved 5 ist different from the usual Zeiss engraved 5
Klaus _________________ my Ebay auctions
Canon 5D II,
Fuji GW690III, Fuji G617, Fujifilm X-E1
Bessaflex TM
Tachihara 4"x5"
Summilux-R 1:1,4/50
Canon FD 85mm 1:1,2
Color-Heliar 75mm F2.5 SL
www.autoselbstfotografie.de
www.classic-cameras-and-lenses.de |
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memetph
Joined: 01 Dec 2013 Posts: 942 Location: Poland
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Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2016 7:20 am Post subject: |
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memetph wrote:
This is the Stevemark's site.
It is said that the german lenses have a brown violet coating and the soviet a blueish one. |
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Lightshow
Joined: 04 Nov 2011 Posts: 3669 Location: Calgary
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Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2016 8:35 am Post subject: |
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Lightshow wrote:
I vote fake, PT1630 has far too many similarities. _________________ A Manual Focus Junky...
One photographers junk lens is an artists favorite tool.
My lens list
http://www.flickr.com/photos/lightshow-photography/ |
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uhoh7
Joined: 24 Nov 2010 Posts: 1300 Location: Idaho, USA
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Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2016 5:02 am Post subject: |
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uhoh7 wrote:
Ask here with pictures:
https://www.leicaplace.com/forums/leica-m-and-ltm-lenses.12/
Brian knows these really well
1945-1949 say the serial, so the soviets had the factory, but still produced lenses with this sort of marking for a time, is my understanding. If it's one of those, or even just a good J3, 250 is not out of line, these days.
As leemlk noted, here is good reference:
http://www.klassik-cameras.de/Zeiss_Fakes.html
Triangle is good and lettering not too big. Can't see if the T is red. Or if it has m or M.
Oh, black front ring means it's not likely real.
OK I say it's fake too, but still might be a good lens
OP: If you want a CZJ 50/1.5 you can buy in Contax RF mount for not too much and use this:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Contax-RF-Nikon-S-Mount-to-Sony-NEX-E-Mount-Adapter-Adjusted-to-Perfect-Infinity-/281974012327?hash=item41a6f5f9a7:g:1CQAAOSwvFZW7x5q
or just grab this before somebody else does:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Canon-50mm-f-1-5-Lens-Zeiss-Sonnar-Bokeh-Design-in-Leica-Screw-Mount-M39-EXC-/162011034448?hash=item25b89c3350:g:AQwAAOSwZ8ZW7EgX _________________ Making MFlenses safe for the letter *L* |
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iangreenhalgh1
Joined: 18 Mar 2011 Posts: 15685
Expire: 2014-01-07
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Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2016 8:26 am Post subject: |
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iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
I have both original CZJ Sonnar 1.5/50 and a couple of J3s, one 1950s, one 1960s. I honestly can't tell them apart, the Russians are as good as the original.
One thing you can do with the Contax/Kiev mount ones is swap the optical block into an M39 barrel - they are a direct fit. The M39 barrel can come from a J3, J8, I-26, I-61, any of the Russian 50s in M39 with the rigid barrel.
Here 's the best of the bunch - the postwar Opton version:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Zeiss-Opton-Sonar-50mm-f1-5-lens-for-Contax-I-and-II-and-Kiev-Rangefinders-/281979018259?hash=item41a7425c13:g:yIkAAOSwa-dWsR5s
For 100ukp, I'd snap this up myself if I had the funds. _________________ I don't care who designed it, who made it or what country it comes from - I just enjoy using it! |
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calvin83
Joined: 12 Apr 2009 Posts: 7547 Location: Hong Kong
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Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2016 10:46 am Post subject: |
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calvin83 wrote:
I have two post-war W-Germany version and one Canon 50/1.5. Anyone of them is good as long as you get one in good condition. _________________ https://lensfever.com/
https://www.instagram.com/_lens_fever/
The best lens is the one you have with you. |
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stevemark
Joined: 29 Apr 2011 Posts: 3751 Location: Switzerland
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Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2016 3:25 pm Post subject: |
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stevemark wrote:
When looking at early postwar "Carl Zeiss Jena" stuff (and their russian copies) it is important to know, that the Russians started their copying work gradually. The very first batches included mainly German parts taken from Germany and brought to the Soviet Union. Later, when the original German parts were used up, they were replaced by "genuine" Soviet parts. This means that even a "Russian" lens or camera built around 1950 may contain original German parts from WWII (or even from before WWII!).
I had a lengthy discussion about these facts with Henry Scherer (www.zeisscamera.com) and with a renown German craftsman from the Jena area who knows the facts well.
Stephan _________________ www.artaphot.ch |
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newst
Joined: 21 Oct 2014 Posts: 617 Location: Troy, MI USA
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Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2016 3:50 pm Post subject: |
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newst wrote:
stevemark wrote: |
When looking at early postwar "Carl Zeiss Jena" stuff (and their russian copies) it is important to know, that the Russians started their copying work gradually. The very first batches included mainly German parts taken from Germany and brought to the Soviet Union. Later, when the original German parts were used up, they were replaced by "genuine" Soviet parts. This means that even a "Russian" lens or camera built around 1950 may contain original German parts from WWII (or even from before WWII!).
I had a lengthy discussion about these facts with Henry Scherer (www.zeisscamera.com) and with a renown German craftsman from the Jena area who knows the facts well.
Stephan |
Absolutely true. Still I can't think of any combination of CZJ and Soviet parts that would result in a CZJ branded Sonnar with a serial number from a Biotar. To me the preponderance of the evidence points toward fake, which was the OP's initial question. _________________ Steve
Just an armadillo on the shoulder of the information superhighway. |
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marino24
Joined: 11 Feb 2016 Posts: 84 Location: italy
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Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2016 12:43 pm Post subject: |
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marino24 wrote:
it is a J3 with sonnar front ring , the same J3 that i have , also the coating is the same blu/violet
#1
#2
#3
#4
the same bl
#5
u/
#6
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stevemark
Joined: 29 Apr 2011 Posts: 3751 Location: Switzerland
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Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2016 7:04 pm Post subject: |
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stevemark wrote:
newst wrote: |
...
Still I can't think of any combination of CZJ and Soviet parts that would result in a CZJ branded Sonnar with a serial number from a Biotar. To me the preponderance of the evidence points toward fake, which was the OP's initial question. |
Yes, of course. I've added just a few general remarks - there are quite a few interesting items out there which are reflecting the turbulent CZJ history in the early postwar period.
To give an example: My own Contax III, carefully restored by Henry Scherer (contaxcamera.com), turned out to be a mix of mostly late-war Zeiss Jena parts and a very early, experimental post-war shutter - either made in Germany or by German craftsmen in Russia. It came with a very rare war-time coated and civilian Sonnar 5cm 1:1.5 (according to Henry Scherer). The set has a traceable history inside Switzerland; it was possibly sold soon after WWII to Switzerland, since Germany (and/or the Soviet Union) were in desperate need for "hard money" (=Swiss Francs).
Stephan _________________ www.artaphot.ch |
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alex_KS
Joined: 29 Oct 2015 Posts: 35 Location: Kiev, Ukraine
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Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 12:26 pm Post subject: |
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alex_KS wrote:
The body is definately from Jupiter-3 lens with added barrel with Sonnar engraving.
As for the glass - it could have Sonnar's glass, but I'm shure It's not.
As for the price - I wouldn't pay for this lens 250$, It seems like It's regular Jupiter-3 lens. Price for M39 version on ebay starts from 150$ up to 200-220$ for lenses in exc. condition.
So I think reasonable option will be to buy Jupiter-3 and you don't need to pay extra money for such kind of fake Sonnar.
But in case if you want to but the CZJ Sonnar, I think here is the original one - http://www.ebay.com/itm/Carl-Zeiss-Jena-Sonnar-1-5-50-T-Lens-Rare-Leica-L39-Mount-/381587907960?hash=item58d8696578:g:pT4AAOSwN81WErjz |
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kds315*
Joined: 12 Mar 2008 Posts: 16497 Location: Weinheim, Germany
Expire: 2021-03-09
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Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 1:31 pm Post subject: |
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kds315* wrote:
Looks like a nice Jupiter-3, $120 I woudl pay for it max. _________________ Klaus - Admin
"S'il vient a point, me souviendra" [Thomas Bohier (1460-1523)]
http://www.macrolenses.de for macro and special lens info
http://www.pbase.com/kds315/uv_photos for UV Images and lens/filter info
https://www.flickr.com/photos/kds315/albums my albums using various lenses
http://photographyoftheinvisibleworld.blogspot.com/ my UV BLOG
http://www.travelmeetsfood.com/blog Food + Travel BLOG
https://galeriafotografia.com Architecture + Drone photography
Currently most FAV lens(es):
X80QF f3.2/80mm
Hypergon f11/26mm
ELCAN UV f5.6/52mm
Zeiss UV-Planar f4/60mm
Zeiss UV-Planar f2/62mm
Lomo Уфар-12 f2.5/41mm
Lomo Зуфар-2 f4.0/350mm
Lomo ZIKAR-1A f1.2/100mm
Nikon UV Nikkor f4.5/105mm
Zeiss UV-Sonnar f4.3/105mm
CERCO UV-VIS-NIR f1.8/45mm
CERCO UV-VIS-NIR f4.1/94mm
CERCO UV-VIS-NIR f2.8/100mm
Steinheil Quarzobjektiv f1.8/50mm
Pentax Quartz Takumar f3.5/85mm
Carl Zeiss Jena UV-Objektiv f4/60mm
NYE OPTICAL Lyman-Alpha II f1.1/90mm
NYE OPTICAL Lyman-Alpha I f2.8/200mm
COASTAL OPTICS f4/60mm UV-VIS-IR Apo
COASTAL OPTICS f4.5/105mm UV-Micro-Apo
Pentax Ultra-Achromatic Takumar f4.5/85mm
Pentax Ultra-Achromatic Takumar f5.6/300mm
Rodenstock UV-Rodagon f5.6/60mm + 105mm + 150mm
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calvin83
Joined: 12 Apr 2009 Posts: 7547 Location: Hong Kong
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Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 1:50 pm Post subject: |
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calvin83 wrote:
That looks fake to my eyes. Even the front cap looks fake to me. _________________ https://lensfever.com/
https://www.instagram.com/_lens_fever/
The best lens is the one you have with you. |
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Marek
Joined: 13 Apr 2014 Posts: 903 Location: In the heart of Europe
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Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2016 11:40 am Post subject: |
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Marek wrote:
A fake too, guys - or a mongrel?
Just been listed this morning.
http://www.ebay.de/itm/Carl-Zeiss-Jena-Nr-3057780-Sonnar-1-1-5-f-5-cm-T-/391573080308?hash=item5b2b9308f4:g:KtUAAOSwmfhX54jo _________________ Angry young man !
Flickr | Juzaphoto | Ebay sales
marekfiser [at] gmail [dot] com |
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newst
Joined: 21 Oct 2014 Posts: 617 Location: Troy, MI USA
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Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2016 1:10 pm Post subject: |
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newst wrote:
In my admittedly not expert opinion, a fake.
1. It says it is a Zeiss Jena lens but the red T mark is a Zeiss Opton coating trademark, Jena couldn't use it.
2. The barrel looks like it is from an FSU rigid 50mm LTM lens.
3. I have seen Zeiss Sonnars in Contax mount and read that a ridiculously small number were produced in LTM mount. I have no clue what mount this lens has, possibly from a movie camera.
Another similar fraud in LTM mount.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Carl-Zeiss-Sonnar-1-5-50mm-2727272-lens-with-Sony-NEX-E-mount-/371572751943?hash=item5683763e47:g:y2sAAOSwAuNW4ypo _________________ Steve
Just an armadillo on the shoulder of the information superhighway. |
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