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Sonnar?
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
scsambrook wrote:
Gerald wrote:
Zeiss still sells a lens called C Sonnar T* 1.5/50 ZM for Leica M cameras. This lens does not have the characteristic front triplet of the Sonnar design, but nonetheless the C Sonnar suffers from all the typical aberrations (Zeiss call them "effects) of the classic Sonnar 50mm F1.5 from before the war. The C Sonnar is a controversial lens with strong focus-shift and off-axis aberrations, and these defects are so significant that Zeiss walks on eggshells when describing the lens:


I have never used any 50/1.5 Sonnar but notice that those who have the ones made in the 1930s, 40s and 50s seem highly entertained with their qualities. Does anyone know - from experience rather than internet regurgitation syndrome - whether the characterists of the current one differ from those of the older ones?


I tried to look at examples for the new version but its often so hard to tell if the photographer meant the old version or new one as I only often find the description 50/1.5 and the results (sample pics) are all mixed.

I get the impression that the new version has little optical vignetting and seems better off center too for sharpness.
Can't be fully sure though for the reasons I mentioned above.


I do have the J3 50/1.5.



I seem to notice that as the Sonnar lenses get longer/slower, the lens funky the wide open bokeh gets.
Anyone thinks the same?

J3 50/1.5

20141229-DSC07954 by jenkwang, on Flickr



Pentax Takumar 58/2 (the only SLR 50mm Sonnar)

20150531-DSC03397-2400-1 by jenkwang, on Flickr



20150524-DSC03194 by jenkwang, on Flickr



Nikkor 105/2.5 ltm

Portrait of a young lady by jenkwang, on Flickr


PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
pinholecam wrote:
I seem to notice that as the Sonnar lenses get longer/slower, the lens funky the wide open bokeh gets.
Anyone thinks the same?

Pentax Takumar 58/2 (the only SLR 50mm Sonnar)

20150531-DSC03397-2400-1 by jenkwang, on Flickr


20150524-DSC03194 by jenkwang, on Flickr

Nikkor 105/2.5 ltm

Portrait of a young lady by jenkwang, on Flickr

Lovely portraits, Jenkwang. The young lady is amazing, with a very subtle background and lovely colors.

I have exactly the same Sonnar "normal" lenses as you (Jupiter 3 and Takumar 58/2) and I love their imaging qualities (although I would not be able to capture such beautiful portraits with my lenses). I also have a Jupiter 11, a CZJ Sonnar 135/3.5 as well as a big 180/2.8 in Pentacon 6 mount and I agree when you say that the bokeh is much "rougher" in the pictures taken with the Jupiter 3 or the Takumar 58/2 than in the pictures taken with longer Sonnar lenses. But your portraits with the Takumar prove that a talented photographer can make good use of the "funky" bokeh. The somewhat swirly background of the picture of the young gentleman draws the attention of the viewer to your subject and makes it really stand out.

Cheers!

Abbazz


PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2016 5:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
pinholecam wrote:

I seem to notice that as the Sonnar lenses get longer/slower, the lens funky the wide open bokeh gets.
Anyone thinks the same?


The crazy bokeh is mostly WO. Even the wild Nikkor calms down by f2. I agree the long sonnars are mellow and sweet.


Shopping for Shoes by unoh7, on Flickr

that's this one, WO


Nikkor 105 by unoh7, on Flickr

But I have to say I do love the 1.5s WO. To me bad bokeh is edgy with artifacts, like the Contax 45/2, but the Sonnars explode very smoothly. I'd love to have nice J3. Smile


PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2016 6:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Abbaz, the J8 50 f2 has also a very nice bokeh , very soft compared to the J3 50 1.5.


PostPosted: Sat Jan 16, 2016 1:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Abbazz wrote:

Anyone thinks the same?

Lovely portraits, Jenkwang. The young lady is amazing, with a very subtle background and lovely colors.

I have exactly the same Sonnar "normal" lenses as you (Jupiter 3 and Takumar 58/2) and I love their imaging qualities (although I would not be able to capture such beautiful portraits with my lenses). I also have a Jupiter 11, a CZJ Sonnar 135/3.5 as well as a big 180/2.8 in Pentacon 6 mount and I agree when you say that the bokeh is much "rougher" in the pictures taken with the Jupiter 3 or the Takumar 58/2 than in the pictures taken with longer Sonnar lenses. But your portraits with the Takumar prove that a talented photographer can make good use of the "funky" bokeh. The somewhat swirly background of the picture of the young gentleman draws the attention of the viewer to your subject and makes it really stand out.

Cheers!

Abbazz


You are too kind.
I just try as best I can to learn about the lenses I have and make use of them as best I can.

The Takumar 58/2 could well be my favourite 50mm.
Not the best technically, but characterful, very nice bokeh stopped down at f2.8, rounded aperture which is less common for SLR lenses (esp Japanese ones), small and not too expensive.
Kind of rare too.


PostPosted: Sat Jan 16, 2016 2:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
uhoh7 wrote:
pinholecam wrote:

I seem to notice that as the Sonnar lenses get longer/slower, the lens funky the wide open bokeh gets.
Anyone thinks the same?


The crazy bokeh is mostly WO. Even the wild Nikkor calms down by f2. I agree the long sonnars are mellow and sweet.
that's this one, WO

But I have to say I do love the 1.5s WO. To me bad bokeh is edgy with artifacts, like the Contax 45/2, but the Sonnars explode very smoothly. I'd love to have nice J3. Smile



I knew next to nothing about the Nikkor 105/2.5 ltm when I saw it.
I was just out to get a short tele to complete a set of lenses for the ltm mount and did not want to spend too much.

So pleased that I got it.
Well built and very nice performance at a reasonable price.


I should be getting back a Nikkor 135/3.5 ltm from LBA in a week or two.
Can't wait to try it out. Smile


PostPosted: Sat Jan 16, 2016 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
pinholecam wrote:
The Takumar 58/2 could well be my favourite 50mm.
Not the best technically, but characterful, very nice bokeh stopped down at f2.8, rounded aperture which is less common for SLR lenses (esp Japanese ones), small and not too expensive.
Kind of rare too.

+1 It's one of these few lenses that I consider part of the "pantheon of lenses".
It's up there with the 58/2.4 Takumar which, at f/4, it has the most pleasing bokeh I have ever seen (sorry for the OT, it's not a Sonnar).

Cheers!

Abbazz


PostPosted: Sat Jan 16, 2016 11:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
kds315* wrote:
stevemark wrote:
....
...
It's most remarkable that all these lenses were calculated without computers.
...


...
Unfortunately this is not entirely correct, as Dr Bertele used a Zuse Z22 computer for his lens design compuations from 1959 onwards. He used it in Heerbrugg and later he had it installed in his home in Switzerland (Wildhaus in Toggenburg), read here about it (in German): http://www.sps.ch/en/articles/physics-anecdotes/werdegang-der-industriellen-optikentwicklung-in-heerbrugg-vom-strahlen-berechnenden-damenkollektiv-zur-auswertung-kollektiver-strahldaten-12/ 150 electron valves had to be checked and eventually replaced EVERY WEEK by a service tech who visited him!!

Yes, of course he was using an "Elektronenrechner" later in his life Wink ... i was referring to the lenses designed before 1959, among them - as said - the Sonnars 2/5cm, 1.5/5cm, 2/8.5cm, 2.8/18cm; the Biogon 2/3.5cm and 4.5/21mm, and some Aviogons.

Stephan


PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2016 12:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Gerald wrote:
Zeiss still sells a lens called C Sonnar T* 1.5/50 ZM for Leica M cameras. This lens does not have the characteristic front triplet of the Sonnar design, but nonetheless the C Sonnar suffers from all the typical aberrations (Zeiss call them "effects) of the classic Sonnar 50mm F1.5 from before the war. The C Sonnar is a controversial lens with strong focus-shift and off-axis aberrations, and these defects are so significant that Zeiss walks on eggshells when describing the lens:

New glass developped after 1960 is both high refractive and relatively low dispersive: Thus in todays C Sonnar 1.5/50mm one can "incorporate" the function (low dispersion) of the second (middle) lens of the cemented triplet into the first lens. The second "lens" nowadays is an "Luftlinse" ("air lens").

Gerald wrote:
scsambrook wrote:
Does anyone know - from experience rather than internet regurgitation syndrome - whether the characterists of the current one differ from those of the older ones?


I don't know what you mean by "internet regurgitation syndrome", but I doubt you'll find many people who own both the classic and the modern Sonnar 50mm F1.5 lenses.


I have compared both lenses - the classic Carl Zeiss Jena Sonnar 5cm 1:1.5 (coated civil version from 1942, Leica M39 mount) to the modern C Sonnar 1.5/50mm:
http://artaphot.ch/minolta-sr/objektiv-vergleiche/320-nex-5n-und-klassische-50mm-zeiss-leitz-objektive

The rendering of both lenses is very similar. The modern C-Sonnar as well as the 1940 CZJ Sonnar both are quite bad if we compare them to the Minolta 1.4/50mm lenses from the 1970/1980ies:
http://artaphot.ch/minolta-sr/objektiv-vergleiche/322-nex-5n-und-minolta-50mm-objektive-teil-ii

Stephan


PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2016 12:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
stevemark wrote:
The modern C-Sonnar as well as the 1940 CZJ Sonnar both are quite bad if we compare them to the Minolta 1.4/50mm lenses from the 1970/1980ies:
http://artaphot.ch/minolta-sr/objektiv-vergleiche/322-nex-5n-und-minolta-50mm-objektive-teil-ii

Stephan


There is a LOT more to a lens than it's technical specs!

As much as I love my Rokkor 1.4/50, the old Sonnar 1.5/50 has a character that is special and produces images that more modern designs like the Rokkors or the Hexanon 1.4/50 (another personal favourite) simply cannot replicate.

There is a reason why the Sonnar 1.5/50 is legendary and it's all about character.


PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2016 2:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
iangreenhalgh1 wrote:

There is a LOT more to a lens than it's technical specs!


Yes indeed. Smile


PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2016 2:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
frenched wrote:
iangreenhalgh1 wrote:

There is a LOT more to a lens than it's technical specs!


Yes indeed. Smile

+1 lenses are not only pure optical schemes and all same with same optical formula, they can be very different characters.


PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2016 4:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
iangreenhalgh1 wrote:


There is a LOT more to a lens than it's technical specs!


Oh yes! And this fact keeps fueling my LBA! Very Happy


PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2016 5:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
stevemark wrote:
The modern C-Sonnar as well as the 1940 CZJ Sonnar both are quite bad if we compare them to the Minolta 1.4/50mm lenses from the 1970/1980ies:
http://artaphot.ch/minolta-sr/objektiv-vergleiche/322-nex-5n-und-minolta-50mm-objektive-teil-ii

Stephan


There is a LOT more to a lens than it's technical specs!

As much as I love my Rokkor 1.4/50, the old Sonnar 1.5/50 has a character that is special and produces images that more modern designs like the Rokkors or the Hexanon 1.4/50 (another personal favourite) simply cannot replicate.

There is a reason why the Sonnar 1.5/50 is legendary and it's all about character.


+1
I do think thats why we are all here. Whoo Turtle


PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2016 6:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
The postwar west Germany Sonnar 50/1.5 is also very good http://forum.mflenses.com/zeiss-opton-sonnar-50mm-f1-5-and-nex-5n-t61348.html#1463948 .


PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2016 9:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Nice work Calvin, the Sonnar is a very good match with a NEX.

I don't have an Opton version, but I have used one. I have a prewar Jena and a couple of Jupiter-3 copies, one from 1956 and one from 1967. The J3s are both excellent, very hard to discern any difference between them and the Opton I had for a while. That said, I do intend to add an Opton to my collection sometime as I already have Opton Biogon 2.8/35 and Opton Sonnar 4/135 for my Contax IIIa.

BTW, that's my 1938 copy shown in my avatar, I wouldn't have picked it for this if it wasn't one of my favourite lenses!


PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2016 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Thanks, Ian! My Opton is not in best condition and I bought a copy in better condition in Carl Zeiss name.

The price of a postwar west Germany copy has dropped to a very reasonable level($200 or less in good condition). It may be the right time to buy one if one does not own any. Here is one ends yesterday with a Contax camera for just slightly more than $200 Click here to see on Ebay .


PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2016 11:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I'll get one some day when I have some funds. Getting the very fine 50s J3 sort of postponed my purchasing a 'real' Sonnar 1.5/50 and for film work, especially BW, my prewar uncoated one is wonderful.
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