Ebay. Confused or Taken?

[Ynot]

So I purchased a lens off Ebay and received it today. I thought it would be what was pictured, but it is not.

The link to the item is here, scroll down to see the complete listing:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Helios-44M-2-58-58mm-F2-MultiCoated-M42-mount-sharp-lens-Zeiss-Biotar-copy-MC-/121762740883

The description reads:

"Helios 44M 2/58 58mm F2 MultiCoated M42 mount lens - Zeiss Biotar copy MC"

Does that equal Russian copy and not what was actually pictured? Is it even MC? Carl Zeiss? Did I get what I payed for? I'm confused. Was I taken?

The top pic shows what I received and the bottom pic show what was up for auction.

[Lloydy]

the Helios 44M is basically a copy of the Zeiss lens, the Helios 44-2 is a closer copy of the original Zeiss and the 44M is a development from that. The short story is, the Russians ran off with most of the Zeiss factory after WW2.
It's a great lens, and many people say it's a match to the Zeiss original.

[newst]

The lens you received is a Helios 44M. It just isn't the one pictured in the Ebay listing.

Soviet factories produced the same lens with Cyrillic lettering for internal use and Roman lettering for export.

Is the lens you received in the condition described? Is it clean, scratch free glass? Do the aperture and focusing ring work well? Have you attached it to your camera and does the camera take suitable photographs with it?

As for multi-coated. Hold the lens so that a light is reflected off the front glass. A regular lamp or ceiling bulb will do. You should see multiple reflections of the light in the lens. If you can see different colored reflections that is a good sign that the lens is multi-coated. Many, but not all, Soviet lenses show MC on the name ring to denote that they are multi-coated. I own a couple Soviet lenses that are definitely multi-coated but don't have MC on the name ring.

Judge the lens while ignoring the name ring. If you are happy with its performance then be happy. If there is anything wrong with the lens' condition or performance then get back with the seller for a return.

[Ynot]

[Ynot]

Steve, thanks for your reply. Don't get me wrong I agree for the most part, but I always encounter a bit of a learning curve with lenses and before it would be too late for returning I needed to know. If it didn't perform as I'd expected and found myself pulling my hair out not knowing if it was me or the lens then it could have been too late to return it. If it is an exact copy and I have a hard time with it then it's obviously me which wouldn't be new, but at-least I'd know that. I'll play around with it this week, who knows I may even shoot a turkey or two.

[newst]

Let me expand on that term 'copy'. After the end of WWII a huge chunk of the Carl Zeiss company was taken by the Soviets as war reparations. This booty included lens designs, un-assembled lens components, Schot glass, machines and people. From 1946 to around 1948 or so the lenses produced in the Soviet Union were exact 'copies' of their Zeiss counterparts since they were Zeiss parts and Zeiss glass assembled on Zeiss machines.

When the Zeiss parts ran out the Soviets started modifying the design, recomputing the lenses to account for different glass and different coatings as well as making the lens sharper as technology improved. A later Helios will not be a 100% copy of a Zeiss Biotar.

That said, the Helios produces images in the Biotar style. It was developed directly from Biotar drawings and components. It has long been accepted within the photographic 'community' that the Helios lens is a copy of the Biotar so if that is your concern your seller hasn't scammed you. What I didn't see in the listing is a disclaimer that the photograph was generic and not of the lens for sale.

[jamaeolus]

I recently auctioned a helios 44 (I can't recall which model exactly) and IIRC I got 54 USD so your price is right in there. Unless the add specifically says the item pictured is what you get its hard to really complain. Use it, love it or not, if likey , keep it, if not auction it. You will get within a few dollars of your outlay. One of the advantages of legacy glass!

[Ynot]

Thanks again Steve. That really helps explain. Not being 100% copy could be for better or worse, but most likely the former I'd assume. When I researched and settled on this lens it was based on the "Helios 44M 2 MC" so when I received this lens I wondered if all the images I looked at and what it was/is capable of was just thrown out the window. Based on the comments here I should be able to achieve those results or better, correct? Of course factoring in the lose nut behind the wheel. Either way I'll play around with it and get to know it. Agreed, if it doesn't work out I'll pass it on to the next guy.

[Lightshow]

[memetph]

If the question is : have I been fooled ? Probably not. Your Helios is a 44 M and the seller has used an existing picture.
if your sample is in a worse cosmetic shape or if you intended to buy KMZ version, you could claim.

Soviet lenses are famous for their uneven quality. Perhaps your Helios is better than the one showed on Ebay....

[Humulus]

The lower picture shows a KMZ Helios-44M and what you received is a MMZ Helios-44M. Both are non-MC versions. The MC Helios-44M (made by KMZ in 1981) actually exists but is very rare and often expensive.

[zanxion72]

Price plus Postage for that Helios is way too much even for the one pictured. I would send it back and ask for a full refund, or ask from the seller a partial refund to get the total cost down to what it is worth.

[spiralcity]

[mfkid]

If you look at the sellers completed sales you will see that the seller reuses the same picture. I only buy a lens on eBay where they show the S.N. in the ad and the seller has real good feedback, like this guy.

http://www.ebay.ie/sch/gloryukraine/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_from=&_ipg=25&_trksid=p3692

[zanxion72]

[mfkid]

I think it is against eBay rules to use a stock photo for a used item.

http://pages.ebay.com/sellerinformation/how-to-take-product-photos/ebay-photo-requirements.html

[edri]

I would open an ebay case.
Normally, the seller should pay the return shipment + total refund.

[Tedat]

[fwcetus]

[memetph]

[zanxion72]

[newst]

The purchaser has to decide what he wanted when he bought the lens. Did he want a Helios 44M in good condition or the specific lens in the photograph, and proceed from there.

To date I don't know if the lens is in good condition or is multi coated, two conditions that if not true would cause me to return the lens if it were me or recommend its return to the OP.

So at this point I can only point out options and not make recommendations.

[Ynot]

Thanks all. Many different ways to look at this. What bothers me most is feeling tricked, I payed for this and I got that plain and simple. I feel he knew exactly what he was doing and tried to get away with it. It's completely up to the seller to put his/her ad together and should be accurate. If the image used is not what's actually being sold then it should state this in the description. Even if there were no image and I based the sale on the description alone it still said nothing about it being the Russian version. Either way I went by the image and what was written and did not receive what I payed for, good or bad.

I wrote to the seller last night:

"Hi,
Today I received the lens I bought from you. It wasn't as pictured. Instead I received a Russian copy. Could you please explain why? Please contact me ASAP. eBay item number:121762740883"


Today I received a reply:

"hello
\sorry for missunderstanding
I am selling russian lenses they are copy of German
if u dont like it I will be happy to take it back and will pay for delivery
Yours
XXXXXX"

I'll play around with it today, but just don't feel right about excepting it. He seems reasonable enough so far and I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and not even provide any feedback, just send it back and leave it alone. Then start looking for another copy. I'll consider this a lesson for me, but not sure how to get around it next time around on Ebay. If someone here has one at a reasonable price shoot me an IM and I'll be happy to do business with you. You seem like an honest bunch. Thanks again.

[newst]

You have to take some responsibility here also. I didn't catch this until your last comment about "Russian version".

ALL Helios lenses are Russian, pure and simple. Just as all Canon lenses are Japanese. The only difference between the lens you got and the lens on the photograph is the language engraved on it. The seller reasonably expected that you or any other buyer would know that. It is incumbent on a buyer to have some knowledge of what they are purchasing before they bid. It's not that difficult, you are already in the internet so before you bid type Helios 44 into Google. If your only objection is that you received a Russian made lens rather than a German made lens you have only yourself to blame.

[Attila]