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kyrcy
Joined: 23 Feb 2015 Posts: 124
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Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2015 7:12 pm Post subject: Helios-44M-4 58mm f/2 |
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kyrcy wrote:
I have a Helios-44M-4 58mm f/2 which I usually use at f/5.6 to achieve sharpness across the entire field of view. Does any of the newer (or older) versions of this lens perform better at full aperture? |
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tb_a
Joined: 26 Jan 2010 Posts: 3678 Location: Austria
Expire: 2019-08-28
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Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2015 7:26 pm Post subject: |
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tb_a wrote:
The search for "Helios 44" gives you more than 1.000 hits. A lot to read about in this forum. _________________ Thomas Bernardy
Manual focus lenses mainly from Minolta, Pentax, Voigtlaender, Leitz, Topcon and from Russia (too many to be listed here). |
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StillSanj
Joined: 21 Apr 2015 Posts: 412 Location: United States
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Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2015 8:46 pm Post subject: |
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StillSanj wrote:
Not sure what you mean by perform better...however, the later the Helios, the sharper it is. 44-m7 is very sharp, whilst 44-2 only has center sharpness stopped down. My 44m-4-m is quite noticeably sharper than my 44-2. There are plenty of references and comparisons out there, but I kept my 44-2 for bokeh and 44m-4-m for sharpness. Both great lenses for price. |
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Lloydy
Joined: 02 Sep 2009 Posts: 7776 Location: Ironbridge. UK.
Expire: 2022-01-01
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Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2015 10:03 pm Post subject: |
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Lloydy wrote:
I've used the 44M, and 44-2, on Sony NEX5, A6000 and Pentax K10, and it should be looking sharp even wide open, certainly at 2.8. The aperture is only affecting depth of field, the sharpness of the lens should be constant. _________________ LENSES & CAMERAS FOR SALE.....
I have loads of stuff that I have to get rid of, if you see me commenting about something I have got and you want one, ask me.
My Flickr https://www.flickr.com/photos/mudplugga/
My ipernity -
http://www.ipernity.com/home/294337 |
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scsambrook
Joined: 29 Mar 2009 Posts: 2167 Location: Glasgow Scotland
Expire: 2011-11-18
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Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2015 10:12 pm Post subject: |
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scsambrook wrote:
I think it's unusual for the sharpness of a lens to be constant irrespective of aperture . . . none of my current ones have that property and, I have to say, certainly not my Helios 58/2 _________________ Stephen
Equipment: Pentax DSLR for casual shooting, Lumix G1 and Fuji XE-1 for playing with old lenses, and Leica M8 because I still like the optical rangefinder system. |
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Lloydy
Joined: 02 Sep 2009 Posts: 7776 Location: Ironbridge. UK.
Expire: 2022-01-01
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Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2015 12:03 am Post subject: |
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Lloydy wrote:
Yeah, but the main effect of changing aperture is the depth of field, and the perception of increased sharpness. If it's sharp wide open, it should stay sharp stopped down - and the opposite way. It's a big generalisation I know, but a lens that's sharp mid way open should retain most of its sharpness as its opened up, just less of it. _________________ LENSES & CAMERAS FOR SALE.....
I have loads of stuff that I have to get rid of, if you see me commenting about something I have got and you want one, ask me.
My Flickr https://www.flickr.com/photos/mudplugga/
My ipernity -
http://www.ipernity.com/home/294337 |
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StillSanj
Joined: 21 Apr 2015 Posts: 412 Location: United States
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Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2015 6:31 am Post subject: |
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StillSanj wrote:
You should not have to stop down to 5.6 to achieve sharpness. Perhaps you have a bad copy...I would wait and see how it compares with new one. |
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tb_a
Joined: 26 Jan 2010 Posts: 3678 Location: Austria
Expire: 2019-08-28
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Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2015 7:23 am Post subject: |
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tb_a wrote:
scsambrook wrote: |
I think it's unusual for the sharpness of a lens to be constant irrespective of aperture . . . none of my current ones have that property and, I have to say, certainly not my Helios 58/2 |
I am fully on your side, Stephen. There is also something called "diffraction" which is causing the loss of sharpness at smaller apertures too:
http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/diffraction.htm
As a general rule you can say that a typical "normal" lens is sharpest at F5.6.
Just my 2 cents. _________________ Thomas Bernardy
Manual focus lenses mainly from Minolta, Pentax, Voigtlaender, Leitz, Topcon and from Russia (too many to be listed here). |
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secludedsea
Joined: 01 Oct 2014 Posts: 82 Location: Adelaide, Australia
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Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2015 7:45 am Post subject: |
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secludedsea wrote:
I guess part of it depends on how much sharpness is acceptable to you. Aperture primarily controls depth of field, obviously, but it does also cut down issues like spherical aberration as it cuts out those fringe light rays entering and causing what is perceived as softness or ghosting. Look at the old Meyer Trioplan lens for a good example of this. Soft and ghostly when wide open, but at f4 and down, perceived sharpness and contrast (and thus colour rendition) improves noticeably. Technically the glass isn't any sharper of course, but sharpness is also a set of perceptions based on multiple factors. |
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StillSanj
Joined: 21 Apr 2015 Posts: 412 Location: United States
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Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2015 6:57 pm Post subject: |
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StillSanj wrote:
I would totally agree, there are very few lenses that are super sharp wide open, except for maybe at the center. A lens that would be evenly tack sharp at all apertures would be quite a feat, and veery expensive. |
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secludedsea
Joined: 01 Oct 2014 Posts: 82 Location: Adelaide, Australia
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Posted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 12:05 am Post subject: |
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secludedsea wrote:
StillSanj wrote: |
I would totally agree, there are very few lenses that are super sharp wide open, except for maybe at the center. A lens that would be evenly tack sharp at all apertures would be quite a feat, and veery expensive. |
And would no doubt have other problems. As we know, there's no perfect lens Lens design is about compromises. |
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kyrcy
Joined: 23 Feb 2015 Posts: 124
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Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2015 1:37 pm Post subject: |
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kyrcy wrote:
The Helios-44M-4 I have is from Valdai. Could an (older?) Helios-44M from KMZ be any better? |
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secludedsea
Joined: 01 Oct 2014 Posts: 82 Location: Adelaide, Australia
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Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2015 2:03 pm Post subject: |
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secludedsea wrote:
kyrcy wrote: |
The Helios-44M-4 I have is from Valdai. Could an (older?) Helios-44M from KMZ be any better? |
There were lots made over the decades. I'm no expert, but as far as I know, the newer Helios 44 lenses simply have better multi-coatings and perform better in terms of contrast. There are always sample variations, even on a lens by lens basis, but I doubt there'd be too much deviation in terms of optical performance even between factories. The older Helios lenses (44 and 44-2) tended to have swirlier out of focus areas from the samples I've seen and discussions I've read, but they're also more prone to flare and loss of contrast, so it all depends on what look you want. Noen of them are dramatically different from each other basically. |
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newst
Joined: 21 Oct 2014 Posts: 617 Location: Troy, MI USA
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Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2015 2:10 pm Post subject: |
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newst wrote:
kyrcy wrote: |
The Helios-44M-4 I have is from Valdai. Could an (older?) Helios-44M from KMZ be any better? |
The variation between lenses in Soviet and East German production is so great that the next number up from Valdai could be twice as good as yours...or twice as bad. The number of variables is staggering. Was the lens built for local use or for export? Was there pressure to increase production when produced or to improve quality? Was it a good lot of glass or just good enough? Was the technician assembling the lens sober, a many year skilled veteran, a new hire or a drone on a sinecure position?
That's all before the lens leaves the factory. Then you can think about the use or abuse the lens sustained since it was produced.
The fact is that you can't expect any old lens to be in like new condition regardless where it was produced or by whom. Hard treatment, improper maintenance or just ageing/outgassing of lubricants can all degrade performance. Yes, you can get lucky and then again you can get screwed.
Welcome to the wonderful world of legacy lenses.
P.S. I just received a 1992 production Helios 44m-7 a week ago. It is in beautiful shape, not a mark on it. Clean glass. Undamaged coating. Takes nice, sharp images. It just doesn't focus to infinity. Since the lens goes 20 meters>infinity that kind of limits its utility to me. I'll play with it a bit when I have the time. It could be the adapter I was using. From what I have seen so far there isn't anything special to this lens that I don't get from other 50mm lenses so likely it will end up back on Ebay. _________________ Steve
Just an armadillo on the shoulder of the information superhighway. |
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miran
Joined: 01 Aug 2012 Posts: 1364 Location: Slovenia
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Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2015 2:24 pm Post subject: |
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miran wrote:
Just buy many of them and a few will surely be good enough. Keep one 44-2 for swirl bokeh and one 44M-4 to 7 for sharpness. Problem solved. _________________ my flickr stream |
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kyrcy
Joined: 23 Feb 2015 Posts: 124
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Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2015 3:18 pm Post subject: |
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kyrcy wrote:
I had a look in eBay and prices seem to vary a lot. If there is not much difference between the different versions which should I look for (apart from the one I already have) and for how much? |
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tb_a
Joined: 26 Jan 2010 Posts: 3678 Location: Austria
Expire: 2019-08-28
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Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2015 3:47 pm Post subject: |
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tb_a wrote:
newst wrote: |
The variation between lenses in Soviet and East German production is so great that the next number up from Valdai could be twice as good as yours...or twice as bad. The number of variables is staggering. Was the lens built for local use or for export? Was there pressure to increase production when produced or to improve quality? Was it a good lot of glass or just good enough? Was the technician assembling the lens sober, a many year skilled veteran, a new hire or a drone on a sinecure position?
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Although you are certainly right, be rather careful here with such statements about GDR lenses.....
Some folks here are very sensible on that. Luckily you avoided the Z* word. _________________ Thomas Bernardy
Manual focus lenses mainly from Minolta, Pentax, Voigtlaender, Leitz, Topcon and from Russia (too many to be listed here). |
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tb_a
Joined: 26 Jan 2010 Posts: 3678 Location: Austria
Expire: 2019-08-28
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Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2015 3:50 pm Post subject: |
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tb_a wrote:
miran wrote: |
Just buy many of them and a few will surely be good enough. Keep one 44-2 for swirl bokeh and one 44M-4 to 7 for sharpness. Problem solved. |
Or look even for an Zenitar 50/1.7. The best choice for sharpness and still available for reasonable prices as well. _________________ Thomas Bernardy
Manual focus lenses mainly from Minolta, Pentax, Voigtlaender, Leitz, Topcon and from Russia (too many to be listed here). |
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miran
Joined: 01 Aug 2012 Posts: 1364 Location: Slovenia
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Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2015 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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miran wrote:
If you're happy with your particular copy of the 44M-4, then you should look for an earlier model like the 44-2. There is a very big difference between the earlier models (original 44 and 44-2) and the later ones that are marked as 44x-n, where x is either K or M (for mount type) and n is a number between 2 and 7 which supposedly corresponds to resolution (the bigger the number the sharper the lens) but I'm not totally sure about that. The earlier ones have very strong swirly bokeh and the later ones don't (or at least much less). If you're not happy with your copy, then also look for a 44M-6 or 44M-7 which is supposedly the sharpest but I think also the rarest. Honest prices should be I think between about 10 and 30€ for most models.
Personally I don't care for the later ones because they don't really stand out that much and there are many other good cheap ~50s out there but the old 44-2 with its rendering and bokeh is one of my favourite lenses. I'm talking about this one:
Helios-44-2 58mm/2.0 by Miran Amon, on Flickr
And my flickr album: https://www.flickr.com/gp/8800601@N04/4H5u0c _________________ my flickr stream |
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RAART
Joined: 10 Oct 2012 Posts: 499 Location: Oakville, ON, Canada
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Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2015 10:34 pm Post subject: |
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RAART wrote:
newst wrote: |
The variation between lenses in Soviet and East German production is so great that the next number up from Valdai could be twice as good as yours...or twice as bad. The number of variables is staggering. Was the lens built for local use or for export? Was there pressure to increase production when produced or to improve quality? Was it a good lot of glass or just good enough? Was the technician assembling the lens sober, a many year skilled veteran, a new hire or a drone on a sinecure position?
That's all before the lens leaves the factory. Then you can think about the use or abuse the lens sustained since it was produced.
The fact is that you can't expect any old lens to be in like new condition regardless where it was produced or by whom. Hard treatment, improper maintenance or just ageing/outgassing of lubricants can all degrade performance. Yes, you can get lucky and then again you can get screwed.
Welcome to the wonderful world of legacy lenses.
P.S. I just received a 1992 production Helios 44m-7 a week ago. It is in beautiful shape, not a mark on it. Clean glass. Undamaged coating. Takes nice, sharp images. It just doesn't focus to infinity. Since the lens goes 20 meters>infinity that kind of limits its utility to me. I'll play with it a bit when I have the time. It could be the adapter I was using. From what I have seen so far there isn't anything special to this lens that I don't get from other 50mm lenses so likely it will end up back on Ebay. |
If you decide to sell it just send me PM with the price... Looking for good copy. _________________
Camera: Pentax K3
FOR SALE:
Do you have Pentax-A or F or FA primes and like to trade?
Here is the list what I have to trade/sale:
Primes: - Kiron 28mm f2 (C/Y); Vivitar 28mm f2.5 Auto (FD); Minolta MD 50mm f2 (incl. adapter to m4/3); Miranda Auto 35mm f2.8 EC (incl. adapter to m4/3); Miranda Auto 135mm f2.8 EC (incl. adapter to m4/3);
Zoom Lenses:
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Zeeke
Joined: 17 Apr 2010 Posts: 174 Location: Sweden
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Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2015 1:48 pm Post subject: |
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Zeeke wrote:
Hey!
I think Helios 44-3 is a good middle,sharp as 44m-7 but easier to swirl....
_________________ Pentax Ks1
Fuji XT10 |
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