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PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2015 8:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
tb_a wrote:

Furthermore this information is available thru the German Wikipedia site of Beroflex since more than 3 years. If there would be any doubt about, then such such pages are usually removed quite soon.


try to correct wikipedia if they write something wrong and you know it definitely better because you are involved... you may change your mind very quickly Wink


PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2015 9:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Tedat wrote:
tb_a wrote:

Furthermore this information is available thru the German Wikipedia site of Beroflex since more than 3 years. If there would be any doubt about, then such such pages are usually removed quite soon.


try to correct wikipedia if they write something wrong and you know it definitely better because you are involved... you may change your mind very quickly Wink


Well, I didn't try it myself but know of several cases where even correct but rather "not so nice" writings had to be deleted rather soon. Maybe it somehow depends on the circumstances behind.
However, still the story is a true one as many of the ex-prisoners reported the same story when the arrived in the "free world". I have no idea as to how the historians work in Poland, but at least in Austria and Germany it's fair enough if different concerned persons are reporting independently what they have personally experienced.
I've told the story my over 80 years old mother and she was very surprised that I didn't know about before. She told me that many other products have been also made by such prisoners in the former DDR also for export to western Germany and even to Austria.


PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2015 11:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
in this case wikipedia is probably true... but google for "Stalins Badezimmer" and you get a hint what I was talking


btw. I'm born in east Berlin and would say I know a bit how it was to live there. Not everything they show on German TV channels (especially about the GDR past) is the complete truth.


PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2015 11:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Tedat wrote:
in this case wikipedia is probably true... but google for "Stalins Badezimmer" and you get a hint what I was talking


btw. I'm born in east Berlin and would say I know a bit how it was to live there. Not everything they show on German TV channels (especially about the GDR past) is the complete truth.


OK, that's indeed a funny story but rather harmless I would say. But especially for naming there have been always rather strange stories behind and not all of them turned out to be true. That is not only since the existence of Wikipedia.
And yes there are several myths around also. I know. It's always also a matter of perspective. I know such stories also from my wife who grow up in a communistic regime. The internal view is quite often different from the external view.

Nevertheless: "Nicht alles was hinkt ist ein Vergleich" Wink

Unable to translate that to English, sorry.


PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2015 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I didn't think the thread started with any political opinion. Facts are quoted, which is how it was. I saw no political opinion expressed. The moderator started all the political shit with his complaint spoiling an interesting thread for me. Well done moderator.


PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2015 10:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
philslizzy wrote:
I didn't think the thread started with any political opinion. Facts are quoted, which is how it was. I saw no political opinion expressed. The moderator started all the political shit with his complaint spoiling an interesting thread for me. Well done moderator.


The document is a political document (100% !)
The topic is a political topic .
What do you want more?


PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2015 7:09 am    Post subject: Move this thread Reply with quote
The issues aired so far seem to be

* whether there was forced labour (by innocent people) employed in the optics industry production chain
* if such products should be bought (-even now) for moral reasons or due to quality shortfalls
and a subset
* if involuntary labour or the demands for high output led to inferior products
* whether there was effective quality control for parts of- or all the output

Given that this may naturally lead on to discussions of high output demand for low paid personell today, and easily fill up with relevant arguments concerning global trade, distribution, economy and political ideals, that discussion would be more suitable outside the more technical part of this forum.

p.


PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2015 7:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Perhaps we should have a new section specifically for the economic, social and political history of photo equipment manufacturing. It may never be the busiest one, but it might still be useful and interesting to some of us.


PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2015 8:01 am    Post subject: Re: Move this thread Reply with quote
paulhofseth wrote:

Given that this may naturally lead on to discussions of high output demand for low paid personell today, and easily fill up with relevant arguments concerning global trade, distribution, economy and political ideals, that discussion would be more suitable outside the more technical part of this forum.


I can't see any reason for any political discussion here.
I stopped buying such lenses already some years ago because I was always facing technical troubles and neither do I have the technical skills to repair them myself nor do I know somebody who would be able to do it. Even more as the prices for old lenses have increased significantly I am looking for lenses which are likely to operate without troubles. To avoid further frustrations I was looking for the production origin of a lens branded as "Beroflex" I tried to find out where this lens has been produced as Beroflex did also market some far east products besides the GDR stuff. On this occasion I simply found per accident this information.
For me that seemed to be an additional explanation why there are so many faulty lenses around which have been produced in the former GDR. It's history anyway and nobody can do anything about it nowadays. Nevertheless I thought it is worth sharing here as I am not the only person who is rather unhappy about those quality issues.
If based on that somebody want to discuss about politics I would certainly recommend to do it somewhere else and not in the lens section.
If somebody want to interpret something as "politics" that will be always possible.
I don't see any reason why so far max. 2 readers of nearly 1.000 readings expressed concerns about this issue. If you want to see something political and lead the discussion in such a direction you can certainly always do that. Every discussion about lenses here may lead to marketing political aspects for old lenses. Do you consider this as dangerous political discussion too?
The only REAL reason I could eventually see that somebody has troubles with such quality discussions at all is if somebody want to earn maximum money on the sale and distribution of old cheap crap in general. But that is true for any discussion about quality issues and has nothing to do with politics.
Have a nice day.


PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2015 8:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
There are many factors affecting the quality and durability. This includes but not limited to design of the lens, the materials used, the quality of the materials and the quality of the assembling. Take note that good QC ONLY ensures the items meets the manufacture standard but it will not turn a poor product to a good one.

From my experience, the design and the materials used are the main caused of the mechanical issues on the CZJ lens I encountered. However, the glass and coating used by CZJ were pretty good. For example, my CZJ Practicar 80 is as good as my Topcor 85 optically although the build quality is miles behind. Wink


PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2015 8:32 am    Post subject: Move this thread Reply with quote
I interpret you as agreeing with me that this thread should be moved out ot the "natural sciences & technology" domain here.

p.


PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2015 8:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
philslizzy wrote:

The document is a political document (100% !)
The topic is a political topic .
What do you want more?

+1

paulhofseth wrote:
The issues aired so far seem to be

* whether there was forced labour (by innocent people) employed in the optics industry production chain
* if such products should be bought (-even now) for moral reasons or due to quality shortfalls
and a subset
* if involuntary labour or the demands for high output led to inferior products
* whether there was effective quality control for parts of- or all the output

Given that this may naturally lead on to discussions of high output demand for low paid personell today, and easily fill up with relevant arguments concerning global trade, distribution, economy and political ideals, that discussion would be more suitable outside the more technical part of this forum.
p.


IMO the moral aspect is exaggerated.
When the moral stops? The Pyramids, the Parthenon, etc. were made, at least partially, by forced labor. Is it immoral to be delighted by their beauty? Is the moral aspect vanishing in time?

In my country a lot of big public buildings, factories and the Danube-Black Sea channel were made by forced labor of innocent people. When building the channel thousands of political prisoners died. Is it immoral to use the channel today?
By contrary, I think that using today the result of the former forced labor workers makes their sacrifice to be not entirely senseless. It is a way to remember and appreciate their sacrifice.

With all the respect and empathy for their sacrifice, is the former force labor workers claim for financial compensations from the today's society entitled? I'm not 100% sure...
The society that persecuted them does not exist anymore. Is it moral to ask for compensations from descendants?
If so then, again, when this moral aspect stops in time? My country was conquered and robbed 2000 years ago by the Romans. Should we claim for compensations from Italy today?

The concerns and fear that forced labor led to inferior products is, IMO, not justified as the quality control has always been the same as for the payed workers products.


PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2015 9:09 am    Post subject: Re: Move this thread Reply with quote
paulhofseth wrote:
I interpret you as agreeing with me that this thread should be moved out ot the "natural sciences & technology" domain here.

p.


If this is your answer to me then I have to state that I meant it exactly the other way round.

The topic of the lens forum is:

Discuss use, characteristics, history of manual lenses.

So either change the topic of the forum or stop this constructed discussion about politics.
I see my original post as part of the history of manual lenses and never intended to discuss here about politics.
If somebody want to discuss about politics there are other forums for that.
My contribution has to be seen as historical information on the production of manual lenses and nothing else.
Is that really that hard to understand? What's your issue at all? Don't you have other problems as you are inventing some?


PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2015 9:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Just close the thread before an argument starts, which has been obviously inevitable since it began.


PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2015 10:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
Just close the thread before an argument starts, which has been obviously inevitable since it began.


That's really the best idea!

As there are obviously some trouble makers around who are searching for arguments to start conflicts it may be the best to close the thread.

Poor forum.

P.S.: I still see the "hidden agenda" why this troubles started but I certainly will not discuss that here in the lens section, if at all.


PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2015 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
tb_a wrote:
iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
Just close the thread before an argument starts, which has been obviously inevitable since it began.


That's really the best idea!

As there are obviously some trouble makers around who are searching for arguments to start conflicts it may be the best to close the thread.

Poor forum.

P.S.: I still see the "hidden agenda" why this troubles started but I certainly will not discuss that here in the lens section, if at all.


This thing comes up every now and then, and, while I substantially agree with you, and see nothing bad in some heated discussion about "hot" topics that involve politics, religion or whatever, the moderators/owners/managers of the forum decided that it's not good for the forum itself: so - in my opinion - we should accept that rule. Also, a dedicated forum section has been created exactly for that kind of discussions.
So: the document is interesting, you brought it to the attention of the users here, maybe the whole discussion that will be generated from it can be moved to the dive bar, and people who want to take part in it can do that there.


PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2015 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
tb_a wrote:
iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
Just close the thread before an argument starts, which has been obviously inevitable since it began.


That's really the best idea!

As there are obviously some trouble makers around who are searching for arguments to start conflicts it may be the best to close the thread.

Poor forum.

P.S.: I still see the "hidden agenda" why this troubles started but I certainly will not discuss that here in the lens section, if at all.


Perhaps we are ex agents of the Stasi or nostalgic of the cold war ! Very Happy


PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2015 8:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
What makes me extremely dubious is the part that cites the use of "Russian machinery" to produce photographic equipment. Guys... do you realize that Russia received most of its optical production equipment as reparations from Germany? Most optical designs employed in USSR were copying German lenses of the time (e.g. Jupiter lenses were Sonnar copies, Helios lenses were Biotar clones, and so on). To my knowledge, USSR did not export manufacturing equipment back to Germany (at least not during the time period being discussed here). To me, the whole issue seems made up.


PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2015 8:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
aoleg wrote:
What makes me extremely dubious is the part that cites the use of "Russian machinery" to produce photographic equipment. Guys... do you realize that Russia received most of its optical production equipment as reparations from Germany? Most optical designs employed in USSR were copying German lenses of the time (e.g. Jupiter lenses were Sonnar copies, Helios lenses were Biotar clones, and so on). To my knowledge, USSR did not export manufacturing equipment back to Germany (at least not during the time period being discussed here). To me, the whole issue seems made up.


http://orf.at/stories/2118854/2118855/
http://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article106257969/Aus-dem-Ost-Frauenknast-auf-den-West-Grabbeltisch.html
http://www.moz.de/artikel-ansicht/dg/0/1/1235786

...and so on and so forth........

You can search yourself if you are really interested.

But I know, the Americans have never been on the moon and America was discovered first by the Turks.


PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2015 11:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
tb_a wrote:
aoleg wrote:
What makes me extremely dubious is the part that cites the use of "Russian machinery" to produce photographic equipment. Guys... do you realize that Russia received most of its optical production equipment as reparations from Germany? Most optical designs employed in USSR were copying German lenses of the time (e.g. Jupiter lenses were Sonnar copies, Helios lenses were Biotar clones, and so on). To my knowledge, USSR did not export manufacturing equipment back to Germany (at least not during the time period being discussed here). To me, the whole issue seems made up.


http://orf.at/stories/2118854/2118855/
http://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article106257969/Aus-dem-Ost-Frauenknast-auf-den-West-Grabbeltisch.html
http://www.moz.de/artikel-ansicht/dg/0/1/1235786

...and so on and so forth........

You can search yourself if you are really interested.

But I know, the Americans have never been on the moon and America was discovered first by the Turks.

This is typically a german domestic affair.
It is remarquable how history can be instrumentalized.
Presenting germans as victims of "Zwangarbeit" on an international forum is very ambitious.


PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:56 am    Post subject: Re: Quality control Reply with quote
paulhofseth wrote:
I do not know whether there was forced labour in the Zeiss factories, but they did have quality control. If you look at the Tessar of a Werra for instance, you will find a symbol looking like a ring or an o on top a number 1. That is the prime export quality. Lower ranks had other symbols and went to other markets.

p.


Hi guys, apologies to drag up an older thread but in response i believe this idea about Q1 is somewhat of a myth. Based on further sources if info (including the Lens Vademecum iirc?) the Q1 symbol denotes successful compliance over a set period of time with directives to continually reduce costs and wastage, and to improve efficiency of production. If these were not wholly achieved according to whatever goal or standards that existed there were yet lower symbols, a red triangle and/or square symbol instead of the Q1. So it seems the export quality idea may not be true.


PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:53 pm    Post subject: Q1 Reply with quote
As you may gather from my previous posts above I have- with varying success- tried to avoid the political issues.

As to my belief in the Q1 designation, I do not have primary sources, but rely on presumably well read historians. I cannot recall which I looked at when i wrote my comment above, but I have jsut consulted one work which I regard as reliable.

On page 869 in mr. L.J. Gubas excellent exposition "Zeiss and photography", ISBN 9780982182727 he states that "...the superimposed number 1 and a Q which was an East German designation for "First Quality" .....

The bean-counter interpretation of Q1 is interesting and mirrors some current production ideals. Looking forward to the reference.

p.


PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:46 am    Post subject: addendum Reply with quote
An additional fact to enlighten the discussion about the Q1 designation. I have now found the note on my source, it is Dresdner camera.de which has a straightforward presentation of the different quality levels with references.

This also gave me a good excuse to put aside current work and follow curiosity to see how this was practised.

If one looks at the Zeiss archives, record number VA 1012 in the "aktenplan 1975-1990" one will find "unterlagen des GD für Direktion für Qualitetssicherung". The subjects the direction was to discuss were issues like quality of deliveries from subcontractors, the costs following from sorting out substandard products as well as rectifying them, test results for devices and "Auslieferungssperren des DAMW"(delivery blocked by the govt. standards etc. authority) for some products from CSJ due to quality faults.

I also found records where the glass delivery standards were discussed and where Jenas glassworks had discussions with Schott in the west as well as with a similar french outfit.


This leads me to conclude that the various levels of quality were actively tested device by device. Whether the level of the norms were specific and exacting enough or the sampling frequent enough is another matter.

p.
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