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My favourite ~50mm - Cosinon 55/1.4
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Very nice pictures in this thread!

I had this lens as both Rikenon and Cosinon, and they where equal so I kept only the Cosinon Wink


PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 12:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Nordentro wrote:
Very nice pictures in this thread!

I had this lens as both Rikenon and Cosinon, and they where equal so I kept only the Cosinon Wink


Eh, sorry to be out of topic but what is that camera and lens in your icon pic? My gosh!

Back to Cosinon 1.4, I bought it recently, it is my first manual lens. I LOVE IT. I never had a 1.4 before, the color rendition is mind blowing, very vintage looking for portraits. But I adore it for macro. I took several pics yesterday using a extention tube with it.

Last edited by darynthe on Tue Apr 28, 2015 12:44 am; edited 1 time in total


PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 12:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
darynthe wrote:
Nordentro wrote:
Very nice pictures in this thread!

I had this lens as both Rikenon and Cosinon, and they where equal so I kept only the Cosinon Wink


Eh, sorry to be out of topic but what is that camera and lens in your icon pic? My gosh!

Back to Cosinon 1.4, I bought it recently, it is my first manual lens. I LOVE IT. I never had a 1.4 before, the color rendition is mind blowing, very vintage looking for portraits. But I adore it for macro. I took several pics yesterday using a extention tube with it.





Here you go.
Yes it is a fine lens indeed
OH


PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 8:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
What is really good for us is that it's not only a good lens, but it was manufactured for several decades and it's really easy to find one.


PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 11:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Snowcat wrote:
As I said, flat bottomed lenses were made by BOTH - Tomioka and Cosina. All Cosinon lenses are manufactured by Cosina with no exception. So there are NO such things as Cosinon 55/1.4 made by Tomioka, despite sometimes you can see this on ebay. Cosina and Tomioka 55/1.4 designs are close relatives but they are not the same! And they both have flat bottom lenses.

I already told how you can determine one from another (if you can unscrew the front element easily without a screwdriver - it's Tomioka design, if screwdriver is needed - it's Cosina design).


This is brave and also very interesting and revolutionary statement. Especially: "All Cosinon lenses are manufactured by Cosina with no exception." This is new to our discussions and could truly help understand and sort few things out if confirmed.

Could you shortly explain your views (findings) on:
M42 Revuenon / CHINON / Tomioka 1.4/55mm model (leather grip)
M42 Rikenon 1.4/55mm (two models: 100% flat rear and slightly convex)
M42 MC Revuenon / CHINON 1.4/55mm model (smooth focusing line)


PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
darynthe wrote:
Nordentro wrote:
Very nice pictures in this thread!

I had this lens as both Rikenon and Cosinon, and they where equal so I kept only the Cosinon Wink


Eh, sorry to be out of topic but what is that camera and lens in your icon pic? My gosh!

Back to Cosinon 1.4, I bought it recently, it is my first manual lens. I LOVE IT. I never had a 1.4 before, the color rendition is mind blowing, very vintage looking for portraits. But I adore it for macro. I took several pics yesterday using a extention tube with it.


Zeiss Gigantar 40mm f/0.33 - worlds fastest lens (1966) Wink


PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Nordentro wrote:
darynthe wrote:
Nordentro wrote:
Very nice pictures in this thread!

I had this lens as both Rikenon and Cosinon, and they where equal so I kept only the Cosinon Wink


Eh, sorry to be out of topic but what is that camera and lens in your icon pic? My gosh!

Back to Cosinon 1.4, I bought it recently, it is my first manual lens. I LOVE IT. I never had a 1.4 before, the color rendition is mind blowing, very vintage looking for portraits. But I adore it for macro. I took several pics yesterday using a extention tube with it.


Zeiss Gigantar 40mm f/0.33 - worlds fastest lens (1966) Wink

I wish the Gigantar can take sharp photos. Wink


PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Pancolart wrote:


This is brave and also very interesting and revolutionary statement. Especially: "All Cosinon lenses are manufactured by Cosina with no exception." This is new to our discussions and could truly help understand and sort few things out if confirmed.

Could you shortly explain your views (findings) on:
M42 Revuenon / CHINON / Tomioka 1.4/55mm model (leather grip)
M42 Rikenon 1.4/55mm (two models: 100% flat rear and slightly convex)
M42 MC Revuenon / CHINON 1.4/55mm model (smooth focusing line)


I don't understand why you're being so sarcastic. What caused that, I wonder?

Cosinon 55/1.4 is a lens designed and manufactured by Cosina and Cosina only.
Tominon 55/1.4 is a lens designed and manufactured by Tomioka and Tomioka only.

Many other brands bought one of these lenses for themselves. Many of those brands bought BOTH of those lenses in different periods of time. As I said one of these lenses can be named Rikenon 55/1.4, Auto Revuenon 55/1.4, Exida 55/1.4, Exactar 55/1.4, Sears 55/1.4, Mamiya/Sekor 55/1.4, Porst Color Auto Reflex 55/1.4, Super Carenar 55/1.4, Super Reflecta 55/1.4. I forgot to name Chinon and perhaps some more brands, as they were truly numerous at that time.

I told how those lenses can be differentiated one from another.

As for your statements taken probably from ebay, they are not a thing to be looking at.
There cannot be such thing as M42 Revuenon / CHINON / Tomioka 1.4/55mm as Revuenon is a trademark of german Foto-Quelle of Nuremberg, CHINON is a trademark of japanese Chinon Industries inc. Perhaps someone wanted to say that the lens he is selling is designed by Tomioka and it is similar to Chinon and Revuenon lenses, or something like that.


PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Personnaly , I stopped taking seriously this story about Tomioka or not Tomioka. It is typically the internet topic.
I own a Cosinon 55 1.4 and I could see a Revuenon which is externaly identical ( except the focusing ring).
I have not used my Cosinon with my A7 because of the flare and ghosting problems which I mentioned.
It is not a versatile lens or perhaps I had a bad adapter.
Seeing some nice results , I shall give it another chance.

About Chinon , there are some Chinon 55 1.4 with Tomioka written on it.


PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I must give quick response: believe it or not, i was fully honest, no sarcasm intended. Now i will read your reply in detail.


PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
@Snowcat

Quote:
There cannot be such thing as M42 Revuenon / CHINON / Tomioka 1.4/55mm as Revuenon is a trademark of german Foto-Quelle of Nuremberg, CHINON is a trademark of japanese Chinon Industries inc. Perhaps someone wanted to say that the lens he is selling is designed by Tomioka and it is similar to Chinon and Revuenon lenses, or something like that.


I don't understand- I have both Auto Revuenon TOMIOKA and Auto CHINON TOMIOKA 55/1.4 lenses... Neutral


PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
radissimo77 wrote:
@Snowcat

I don't understand- I have both Auto Revuenon TOMIOKA and Auto CHINON TOMIOKA 55/1.4 lenses... Neutral


But not Revuenon CHINON, right? And that is what I was talking about and what you quoted.


PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Pancolart wrote:
I must give quick response: believe it or not, i was fully honest, no sarcasm intended. Now i will read your reply in detail.


I am sorry for this misunderstanding. The thing is - Cosina and Tomioka both were designers and manufacturers of the lenses. Unlike tens of others who only gave their name to the lenses, like Rikenon, Chinon, Sears, e.t.c. Cosina and Tomioka were rivals, so it is unimaginable that one of them would produce lens, designed by the other. Can you imagine a Nikon Nikkor lens, designed by Canon? I cannot. The same situation was with Cosina and Tomioka. They both designed lenses based on similar (but not the same) optical scheme, which in fact is bitoar-like, not something truly original.


PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 8:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
But not Revuenon CHINON, right? And that is what I was talking about and what you quoted.


Oh no nobody would expect that, surely-I guess it happens only on eBye when sellers want to reach searches for both Chinon and Revuenon... Idea


PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 10:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
[quote="Snowcat"]
Pancolart wrote:
Can you imagine a Nikon Nikkor lens, designed by Canon? I cannot. The same situation was with Cosina and Tomioka. They both designed lenses based on similar (but not the same) optical scheme, which in fact is bitoar-like, not something truly original.


In fact, a camera history book I read said that the first Canons were supplied with Nikkor lenses. In those old days what one day would become Nikon was working in optics only. When Canon was successful they started making their own cameras.


PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 9:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
darynthe wrote:


In fact, a camera history book I read said that the first Canons were supplied with Nikkor lenses. In those old days what one day would become Nikon was working in optics only. When Canon was successful they started making their own cameras.


Yeah but that was in ancient times when Canon had no it's own lens manufacturing facility, so Canon and Nikon were not rivals back then as they became later on.


PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Snowcat wrote:
Pancolart wrote:
I must give quick response: believe it or not, i was fully honest, no sarcasm intended. Now i will read your reply in detail.


I am sorry for this misunderstanding. The thing is - Cosina and Tomioka both were designers and manufacturers of the lenses. Unlike tens of others who only gave their name to the lenses, like Rikenon, Chinon, Sears, e.t.c. Cosina and Tomioka were rivals, so it is unimaginable that one of them would produce lens, designed by the other. Can you imagine a Nikon Nikkor lens, designed by Canon? I cannot. The same situation was with Cosina and Tomioka. They both designed lenses based on similar (but not the same) optical scheme, which in fact is biotar-like, not something truly original.


This is really great. You manage to breakthrough Tomioka / Cosinon standstill debate. There are few of us on forum genuinely interested in the subject but piece of puzzle was missing. I think this is it.

What is your opinion on possibility somewhere in time RICOH (Rikenon) and CHINON began making their own 1.4/55 M42 models?
Especially CHINON model bellow, many times branded Revuenon, but never branded Cosinon or Tomioka.


Few more questions arise. What about the starting period. Who was first making 1.4/55 model? Who copied from who and is there a possibility COSINA (or Tomioka) initially started distributing another's product but then developed its own variation.
If so, which is that first model?


PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 10:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Pancolart, now you are pushing me into a field of uncertainty...

I do not know who made the first "flat bottomed" 55mm design. Both Tomioka and Cosina were quite strong back then and they both had enough brainpower in their possession to do it. Maybe they both "borrowed" the idea from someone else...

Look here http://www.alphatraveller.org/gallery/upload/2015/01/10/20150110112241-0fd848a8.png

This lens type is a modified Biotar and it was quite widely used... Nikon, Canon, Leica, Zeiss used this scheme. It is very hard to determine who was the first one to invent it...

As for others, as far as I know, all other lenses 55/1.4 with flat bottom element from "smaller" brands are made by Cosina or Tomioka. I cannot prove this so take this as my personal knowledge only. But I was really interested in this and performed quite a serious research.

There is one more difference between Cosina and Tomioka lenses. I am not 100% sure about this but it SEEMS to be true. At least my Cosinon and my friend's Tominon prove this. Cosina made lenses have meters on their distance scale written above feet, while Tomioka wrote feet above meters. Based on this your lens is Tomioka made.


PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
This is a most interesting observation regarding the feet/metre markings.
If correct, then the Chinon and Auto Revuenon are Tomioka while the Mamiya and Rikenon are Cosina in origin (assuming that Mamiya and Ricoh did not make them themselves)
OH


PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2015 12:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I am always amused about discussions concerning the Tomioka myth.
Fact is that these Lenses have been rather low end and have been produced in masses by Tomioka under various brand names as already mentioned.
Every similar lens from a serious camera and lens maker like Minolta/Canon/Nikon/Pentax is far better and this was proven by several tests in magazines like Color Foto (Germany) in the 70's of the last century.
There is also an interesting article of www.kameradoktor.de called "The fairy tale of Tomioka" (unfortunately only in German) on how the hype on these lenses started to increase the marked prices for these old lenses.

A little history: Tomioka was bought by Yashica in 1968 and then Yashica started to license from Zeiss for Contax cameras. In 1983 Kyocera took over the whole bunch until 2005 the whole camera business ceased.

Nevertheless for low budget such old Tomioka lenses may fulfill the needs when found for a few bucks. It always depends on the expectation of the photographer.

However, I would not buy such a lens even for little money. I prefer to use my Minolta/Pentax/Topcon lenses from that period of time as they are far better in every aspect. But this is also a matter of taste.


PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2015 7:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
tb_a, hype has nothing to do with me. And Tomioka "myth" too, as I have Cosinon, which is made by Cosina.

Some time ago I decided to buy a fast ~50mm and started to borrow lenses from different people to evaluate them. The first one that I've got my hands on was Olympus Zuiko 50/1.2. I did not liked it, nor the picture nor the ergonomics. Then I've borrowed a Topcor 50/1.4. I liked it alot more then Zuiko but it's price was too high for me. And then I tried Cosinon 55/1.4 and was CHARMED by this lens! I liked pictures from it alot more then from both Zuiko and Topcor. I've heard nothing about it back then and started to dig information as I like to know about as much as possible about the lenses that I like.

So, in my case, I've tried this lens, then bought it and only after that I've read all the information I could find about it. So "myths" have nothing to do with all that.


PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2015 8:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
The fact is that Canon FD 50 1.4 ,Rokkor 50 1.4 and Pentax M 50 1.4 can be found to the same price as those supposed Tomioka.
Where it counts ( wide apertures) ,they perform better with a FF camera (A7). That said, many lenses which I like are not "performers".

If you just consider M42 1.4 lenses, the Takumars and Mamiya are still more expensive than the "tomiokas".


PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2015 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Snowcat, I didn't mean you.
My observation was of general nature as others in this thread have been wondering if those lenses have been produced by Tomioka.
All I was saying is that these old Tomioka lenses are not really good and heavily overpriced for mystical reasons.
I said nothing about Cosina. However, what I've seen from your fotos here it's not a bad lens at all.


PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2015 9:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
memetph wrote:

If you just consider M42 1.4 lenses, the Takumars and Mamiya are still more expensive than the "tomiokas".


I have just checked on ebay. Takumars are offered from around 50 up to 100 Euro and "Tomiokas" for 125 up to 200 Euro. Wink

So I cannot confirm what you are stating here.


PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2015 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
That is not the market here.
All those 55 1.4 are about 50-60 euros. 125 to 250 euros is simply ridiculous.
No Takumar 50 1.4 or Mamiya 55 1.4 under 100 euros.
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