M mount lenses, stay or go?

[cyrano]

Folks, I have some wider lenses in M mount that don't really cut it with my A7, namely the CV 15mm,Zeiss 18mm,CV 35mm f1.2 and 35mm 2.5. The CV 50mm f1.1 seems to be ok though but I haven't used the Canon 50mm f1.2 on FF yet.
All work fine within the APS-C 'limitations' of my Fuji X camera but I have alternatives that do a very similar job.
I originally used the M mounts on my Epsom which has been sold due to me having bigger issues focusing. Hence I shall be using the excellent peaking on the Sony and also a move towards A/F lenses in the future.
Are they worth hanging on to in the event of future bodies having the correct sensor alignment, will that be coming in the next couple of years?
Or, shall I shift them on, buy a 16-35 zoom and/or further AF primes with the money gained?
Thoughts? I've got a fair bit of glass gathering dust so to speak. The SLR lenses I have present no problems for my usage .
I much prefer to use FF as it's what I've been used to for 20 years or so.

[uhoh7]

[cyrano]

Thanks for the reply Uhoh7, admittedly, using wides and ultra wides mitigates focusing issues I am now having with poorer eyesight I'm not sure I could justify the extra cost on another system (I have an Xpro-1 as well c/w Zeiss 12 and 32 primes and the Fuji 18-55 zoom).
If money wasn't an issue for what would be ,competitively speaking, a niche product for me I'd be all over the M9 like a rash. I loved the CCD sensor in my Epsom and that type of sensor in a FF Leica RF is a wonderful pairing. If Leica could only offer live view or a very good focus confirmation with the M9 that could sway the issue some time. And I would get to keep my M mount lenses. I really do like the 18mm and 15mm lenses and they are best used on FF, at least for my purposes. I have done a few shots today with the CV 35 f1.2 and noticed vignetting on some of the shots hence my post, I like to use lenses at the 'correct' focal length, it's just a force of habit.
Sighs, I kind of expected that reply, not that this is in any way a criticism but you echoed my thoughts.....

[uhoh7]

[Dazey]

The wider lenses work well on the A7s, so you might find that they improve on future cameras. I have the CV15 and it went from usable only with correction on the A7R (and the vigneting was a problem for exposure) to not really needing correction on the A7s for general use. The CV21mm f1.8 also went from severe vigneting to not. A lot of people like the cv f1.2 but I don't have it so cant comment. I cant imagine selling my cv 15mm, I love its tiny size/weight (I have the LTM).

[cyrano]

So now I look at selling some SLR lenses and maybe my collection of manual bodies to part finance an M9. Damn me and my daft questions. Then again, I have no use for the 560mm Leica tele, I just much prefer acquiring lenses as opposed to selling them.
I want my old job back !
I wouldn't buy an A7s though, a couple of years down the line and who knows what might turn up? I do like the simplicity of Leica cameras, aperture,shutter speed, what else do you really need in a body that couldn't be done with a computer PP program? Except autofocus of course. My eyes!!!!
It has to be FF though, I'm used to that format and a bit of a Luddite when it comes to change,if it aint broke etc.

[rbelyell]

i'm an M mount fan, but the only one i'd keep and try to salvage is the zeiss 18--thats a special lens.

[Nordentro]

There is a new CV15 coming very soon (mark III) which is a completly redesign and works much better on the A7 series so start selling that one

[Gerald]

The answer to your question depends on the direction you look. If you is a person that likes to shoot film, then you should keep your M lenses for using them with a Leica M body. However, if you look to the present, and especially to the future, the idea of selling your M lenses, while they still achieve good prices, seems to me is the most rational idea.

Leica has had many difficulties in adapting to digital photography. This Erwin Puts' analysis puts the finger on some of the Leica company's problems:

http://www.imx.nl/photo/blog-2/leica-the-new-reality.html

I'm sure that the technological gap between Leica and other photographic companies will only increase in the future.

Sony A7 could have been a camera that would rescue the used Leica lenses, but unfortunately most ultra wide-angle lens and fast wide angle lenses of symmetrical construction do not adapt well to Sony A7, especially the model A7r that uses very small photocells.

If Sony wanted, it could launch a A7L model with a sensor optimized for Leica lenses. But that would certainly kill the Leica M-240 and generate an undesirable animosity against Sony, especially in Germany. Moreover, the market for that type of camera would be negligible for the Sony standards.

I like your idea of buying a 16-35mm zoom lens. Buy the best lens you can, but don't worry about getting aperture larger than F4. The modern full-frame CMOS sensor has sensitivity which is about 100x higher than film, so the old excuse to use fast lenses for low light photography no longer applies. Similarly, the depth of field of wide-angle is often so so great even for the lens wide open, that getting selective focus is almost impossible, no matter the aperture. So again a F4 aperture should be adequate.

[bernhardas]

Edited

[cooltouch]

Cyrano, if I might be able to pass along the wisdom of going through your situation more than once -- but never with such a fine array of glass, I should add.

I have always regretted selling off the primo glass I've owned in the past. I say "always" because I've done it more than once, and you'd think that one would learn from one's mistakes, but that isn't "always" the case.

On a few occasions, I unloaded some great gear out of economic necessity. On others, it was done on a whim or a perceived situation where I would no longer need them. Again, I have always come to regret such moves. And what have I done about them? Why, I've ended up buying back most, if not all, the glass I sold, some of more or less equal or superior quality, just to be sure. And it wasn't always just nice lenses, to be sure. Often it was great cameras with lenses that weren't interchangeable. Like Rolleiflexes and Zeiss Super Ikontas *>sniff<* I figure during the past five years, I've managed to buy back almost all the good glass and cameras I've sold during the proceeding twenty -- plus, I'll freely admit that I've added a few choice pieces to the collection, just for good measure.

If I understand you correctly, your concerns are that modern sensor technology has not caught up to the quality of your lenses -- or perhaps, perceived quality. I don't know. I've only heard about such glass. I've never gotten to actually use any. But if I'm close, let me just say this -- by more than one indication, 2015 is going to be the year in which some very interesting new products in the mirrorless world will be unveiled. There are rumors right now of 50mp Sony and Canon mirrorless full frame cameras that will be introduced later this year. I say, great news, but I'm still waiting for an FF mirrorless that will handle rapid fire shooting. The Sony A7 and A7r sure don't. Dunno about the A7ii, but I suspect it doesn't either. I'd settle for half the frame rate of my NEX 7, to be honest -- and a processor design such that the viewfinder and/or the LCD display doesn't go black during the pauses the way it does with the A7 and A7r.

So anyway, there's plenty of room for advancement with mirrorless technology. But by several accounts, we're in for an interesting year, in that regard. So, my recommendation? Sit tight, and hold onto your glass. Wait a while. Mirrorless technology is still in its infancy.

[cyrano]

Are you saying keep them as some sort of investment insurance policy? I think I understand where you're coming from but if all is worthless then its a moot point. I'm weighing up my options but the odds are stacked in favour of selling most of my MF lenses and mechanical cameras to boot.
And buying the wide zoom ....
Edit: that was in response to bernhadas. Now cooltouch has echoed some latent residual fear of mine.

[uhoh7]

[memetph]

The 16/35 seems to be a good zoom . It is certainly a good choice.
About the primes , the new Zeiss Loxia 35 f2 could be interesting. You will have to wait for the end of this year to see what Zeiss is going to do with the Loxia range. It seems that they have some WA or UWA ready for the A7 . I would wait to make a decision.

Any assumption about the future price of the used Leica lenses is an assumption. It depends of the price of new Leica lenses. The demand for WA M lenses has not increased with the launch of the A7 . It is not the case for standerd and tele lenses. There is no inflation in western Europe.

The Leica lenses are clearly overpriced. This overpricing will last as long as there are FF digital cameras to use them.

[cyrano]

[calvin83]

The common/low value lens cannot keep their value over time. If you don't use a common lens, you can sell it and buy it back easily. For those rare and expensive lenses with special character, they can keep their value if you take good care of them.

[Gerald]

[LucisPictor]

Please, gentleman, this has been a very pleasant and sophisticated discussion, so do not add polemics, ok?

You find some really good advice here, cyrano.

I also would suggest several possible ways:

If you...

... need the money now, sell the lenses.
... don't need the money, keep them.

In the latter case you should either just use them on your Sony and make use of the "peculiarities" as a special effect, shoot them on your Fuji and accept the crop or really think about buying another cam, perhaps a used one to keep it down a little.

The follwing cams would do the job:

>> Sony A7s - absolutely amazing cam in any respect (unless you need extra high resolution).
>> Leica M9 - if you want the full wide angle.
>> Leica M8 - if you can accept the 1.3 crop and want to spend fewer coins.
>> Leica M6 - if you can imagine a film cam to be a nice complement for your already very fine digital cams.

I would keep the lenses if I were you. But that's just my 2c.

[rbelyell]

regardless of your feeling on the lenses you have, none are appreciating in value--thats just a fact. so you can sell and re-buy for same or less whenever you want.

i am a rf fan, but in comsidering M digis when on a budget you must account for the fact that they will break down somehow, and if you buy used, probably sooner rather than later. they are expensive to fix. think of it like buying a classic jaguar--beautiful but in the shop a lot and a cash drain.

the route i took was to buy an rd1 for about $800 to get the rf experience. i love it. versus the Ms it has a 1:1 finder which is helpful to aging eyes. theres no stupid coding, no focus shift, no color cast, no uv fikters, no sensor corrosion. you can align the rf yourself vs paying a couple hundred dollars to realign an M. it produces lovely results up to iso1600 vs 800 on the Ms. and its a workhorse. with the savings you can buy another digicamlike an A7 which is presently going for under $1000 and actually save money vs the cost of one M.

ive found that even though i have a modern classic--the rx1-- which produces stunning results and that i enjoy using, i reach for the 6mp rd1 more and more. ive not felt any limitation, in fact i'm laughing all the way to the bank! well, not really, as i just spent the money i saved on lenses!

[LucisPictor]

[kuuan]

I echo everything LucisPictor had said

I remember enough post of someone regretting having sold very good lenses because they didn't meet their current situation. If the money is not needed I'd keep them for sure.

RF lenses imo make a much better fit on a mirrorless than SRL lenses, therefore I expect that the demand for RF lenses only will raise. That also makes me expect that a FF mirrorless camera which handles these wide angles better, but at a much lower price point than the Leicas, will arrive. It's only speculation, but I expect at least within the coming 2 years.

[LucisPictor]

And another point is that M-lenses can stay even if you someday change your system.
A Fuji user who only shoots with Fuji lenses will have to sell everything if he changes to Sony and so on.
Someone who has a nice set of Leica M glass will be able to keep them and use them even with the new system.

[rbelyell]

well if OP had issues rf focusing on a 1:1 finder, then my suggestion would be to forget rf's altoghether. and i understand leica glass aporeciates, but OP was asking about selling the glass he has, none of which is leica, which is why i suggested he not sweat selling any of what he has. though again, personally i would try to keep the zeiss 18.

the truth is for OP to use the glass he has he has very limited choices. i see, but do not understand, why he wouldnt consider the sony a7s, which has gotten great dxo marks, earned fabukous reviews, and works incredibly well with the glass he has. certainly i would at least give it a try. to be worried about number of mps at this point on the technology curve imo really misses the mark. mps dont make the photographer or the photograph. and reviewer after reviewer that ive read cannot heap enough praise on the a7s results. the smaller mp number means larger pixels and that seems to produce very pleasing unique looking images--somewhat akin to M ccd sensors.

dont get hung up on mps. decide the glass you want to use, how you want to use your tool and go. from what ive read here, the easiest, cheapest and most productive for OP would be reconsidering the a7s.

[memetph]

[quote="uhoh7"]

[cyrano]

I have considered the Sony A7s, it's not far off the cost of the M9 really. But....this is the digital world, as already mentioned, who knows what will turn up in the next couple of years.
What I'm trying to say is I really don't use half of the lenses in my collection and I am concerned that over time they may well deteriorate without regular usage and if I'm not using them frequently, why do I hold on to them? G.A.S. excluded of course. we're all in the same boat are we not? Lovely glass, lovely brass,aluminium fittings even plastic mouldings. it's all about the lenses inside the package. I love the Zeiss 18mm, I also love the Canon 1.2 and the Konica 135mm 3.2, the Hexanon 57mm 1.2 and the black Jupiter 3.
I don't need the money per se, I could however use it to cover the cost of more lenses in AF without breaking into the income barrier.
I've got a load of black, mechanical,manual bodies I've been collecting/hoarding, relative peanuts or worth offloading? Canon F1,F1n,FTbn,EF,Konica T3,Om-1,Nikon F2 Dp-1 finder,Fujica ST801 for instance. I don't develop my own film and find it cost prohibitive to pay for. I was a dedicated slide shooter and that's more or less a dead art.