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Auto Miranda 1.4/50mm vs E 1.4/50mm vs EC 1.4/50mm
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2023 1:14 am    Post subject: Auto Miranda 1.4/50mm vs E 1.4/50mm vs EC 1.4/50mm Reply with quote

There seems to be considerable confusion about the three Auto Miranda 1.4/50mm lenses:

1) Auto Miranda 1:1.4 f=50mm (46mm front filter ring, with separate lever for aperture/camera connection)
2) Auto Miranda E 1:1.4 f=50mm (52 mm front filter ring, no separate lever)
3) Auto Miranda EC 1:1.4 f=50mm

Common belief seems to be that 1) is an 8L designs, and that the 3) "EC" variant is a 7L design.
I haven't seen any information about 2).

While I already two samples of the first "Auto Miranda" variant, today I got a sample of the second "Auto Miranda E" version. I was surprised to see that it's optical computation obvioulsy is different from the first "Auto Miranda" lens:

1) different reflections
2) different length (2nd version is longer)
3) different diameter of the rear lens (2nd version is larger)

If the commonly published lens section fo the 8L version is correct, its front and rear lens would have a similar diameter.
This is true for version 2), but NOT for version 1) which commonly is referred to as the "eight lens Miranda 1.4/50mm".

On the other hand, version 1) has seven light reflections in front of hte aperture (as expected for the 8L design), while 2) has only five reflections (as expected for a 7L design with a cemented doublet in front of the aperture).

Am I missing something? Does any of hte experts here know more?

S


PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2023 2:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are a minimum of 3 different computations for the Miranda 50/1.4 lens, and the 8 elements lens surprisingly may be the least symmetrical of them in terms of balancing the front and rear element diameters.







The 8 element lens is the center one in the pictures. I don't have a copy of the 'E' lens so I can't comment about the optical arrangement of that one. My opinion is that the 8 element lens is most likely the earliest version. I originally posted these pics in the Miranda Fans facebook group here ( https://m.facebook.com/groups/2414859285232700/permalink/4899617826756821/?mibextid=Nif5oz ) and one of the other members there also had some great knowledge to add to it regarding serials numbers etc.

edit - not sure if the facebook link will work, as the group is set to private, so will copy here what I wrote there:

Miranda 50mm F/1.4 versions. There has been confusion around which versions have 8 elements and which have 7, as some of the early versions are very similar in terms of the exterior design. I recently received the lens in the center and disassembled it to verify the number of elements (eight). It has been mentioned in the past that lenses with the sensorex feedback arm were 7 elements, and those without were 8 elements, but this one is for sensorex, so that is not the case. The lens on the left is also for sensorex, but is a seven element lens I have also disassembled and checked. The right hand lens, of course, is a later model for 'EE' type cameras with the aperture position feedback inside the bayonet. The three lenses seem to be all optically different than each other as shown by the rear element diameter. The 8 element lens has a rear element diameter of ~30mm, the 7 element EC lens is ~32mm and the 7 element sensorex lens is ~34mm. So there appears to be (a minimum of) two different 7 element versions, not suprisingly. One way to check if a lens is an 8 element version is to check the rear element diameter, note the distinctive rear carrier with two holes for a lens spanner can be clearly seen from the back on this version. I'm not 100% sure, but the aperture value 'window' may also be another way to verify if buying a lens online. Additionally, for the two sensorex versions I have, the 7 element version is significantly larger and longer. Strangely, considering they are optically different, the IR mark on the depth of focus scale is more or less in the same spot.


PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2023 2:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alun Thomas wrote:
There are a minimum of 3 different computations for the Miranda 50/1.4 lens, and the 8 elements lens surprisingly may be the least symmetrical of them in terms of balancing the front and rear element diameters.

Interesting. Which means that the published lens section of the 8L version isn't precise/correct ...


Alun Thomas wrote:
The 8 element lens is the center one in the pictures. I don't have a copy of the 'E' lens so I can't comment about the optical arrangement of that one.

My "Auto Miranda E" pretty much looks like your lens on the left, but it has a) no lever for the aperture and b) an "EE" setting on the aperture ring. There's also an additional coupling inside the bayonet mount, replacing the original lever. My sample seems to be a 7L computation, confirming your observations from dismantling your lens. Images will follow.


Alun Thomas wrote:
Miranda 50mm F/1.4 versions. There has been confusion around which versions have 8 elements and which have 7, as some of the early versions are very similar in terms of the exterior design. I recently received the lens in the center and disassembled it to verify the number of elements (eight). It has been mentioned in the past that lenses with the sensorex feedback arm were 7 elements, and those without were 8 elements, but this one is for sensorex, so that is not the case. The lens on the left is also for sensorex, but is a seven element lens I have also disassembled and checked. The right hand lens, of course, is a later model for 'EE' type cameras with the aperture position feedback inside the bayonet. The three lenses seem to be all optically different than each other as shown by the rear element diameter. The 8 element lens has a rear element diameter of ~30mm, the 7 element EC lens is ~32mm and the 7 element sensorex lens is ~34mm. So there appears to be (a minimum of) two different 7 element versions, not suprisingly. One way to check if a lens is an 8 element version is to check the rear element diameter, note the distinctive rear carrier with two holes for a lens spanner can be clearly seen from the back on this version. I'm not 100% sure, but the aperture value 'window' may also be another way to verify if buying a lens online. Additionally, for the two sensorex versions I have, the 7 element version is significantly larger and longer. Strangely, considering they are optically different, the IR mark on the depth of focus scale is more or less in the same spot.


Thank you very much - that information is pretty much what I had been looking for Wink

S


PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2023 2:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Like 1 Friends Thank you!


PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2023 4:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stevemark wrote:
Alun Thomas wrote:
There are a minimum of 3 different computations for the Miranda 50/1.4 lens, and the 8 elements lens surprisingly may be the least symmetrical of them in terms of balancing the front and rear element diameters.

Interesting. Which means that the published lens section of the 8L version isn't precise/correct ...
S


Actually my comment may not be that accurate on reflection, as the front element of the 8 element version is also noticeably smaller. I never measured the front element sizes, but from the pictures they appear to follow the rear element sizes in a comparison against each other. Without doing a compare of front-rear element size for all three it's not clear which is the most symmetrical.


PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2023 4:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting. Wink

From Miranda Sensomat RE manual


PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2023 9:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alun Thomas wrote:
There are a minimum of 3 different computations for the Miranda 50/1.4 lens, and the 8 elements lens surprisingly may be the least symmetrical of them in terms of balancing the front and rear element diameters.


As far i know they were 5x 1.4 lens and 3x computations
The 1st version with arm (for sensorex) and without arm (for sensomat) with 8 elements ~1970 (Kowa made ?)
The 2nd version with arm (for sensorex 2 ) and E without arm (for sensorex EE) with 7 elements ~1975 (Tokina made ?)
The EC version for Dx3 /Re2 and EE2 with 7 elements ~1978 (Tokina or sun made ?)

I had the the E and Non E 2nd version and both did not have the aperture windows and that confirms a different lens/origin compared to version 1.

pbfacts


PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2023 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alun Thomas wrote:
stevemark wrote:
Alun Thomas wrote:
There are a minimum of 3 different computations for the Miranda 50/1.4 lens, and the 8 elements lens surprisingly may be the least symmetrical of them in terms of balancing the front and rear element diameters.

Interesting. Which means that the published lens section of the 8L version isn't precise/correct ...
S


Actually my comment may not be that accurate on reflection, as the front element of the 8 element version is also noticeably smaller. I never measured the front element sizes, but from the pictures they appear to follow the rear element sizes in a comparison against each other. Without doing a compare of front-rear element size for all three it's not clear which is the most symmetrical.


Here are the data:

1st version (8L), measured: front lens diameter about 36mm, rear lens diameter about 24mm => ratio about 1.5
2nd version (7L), measured: front lens diameter about 36mm, rear lens diameter about 34mm => ratio about 1.06
1st version, published lens section: front lens diameter 215px, rear lens diameter 190px => ratio about 1.13

That doesnt fit at all, and that's why I got confused! Oviously the published lens section of the 8L version is NOT correct.
In addition it now is clear (from dismantling and from counting the reflexions) that he smaller /shorter Mirande 1.4/50mm with 46mm filter in fact is the eight lens version, while the larger Miranda 1.4/50mm with 52mm filter is the seven lens version.

Thanks to everyone!

S


PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2023 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stevemark wrote:

That doesnt fit at all, and that's why I got confused! Oviously the published lens section of the 8L version is NOT correct.
In addition it now is clear (from dismantling and from counting the reflexions) that he smaller /shorter Mirande 1.4/50mm with 46mm filter in fact is the eight lens version, while the larger Miranda 1.4/50mm with 52mm filter is the seven lens version.

Thanks to everyone!

S


To be confirmed because on the leaflet of my sensorex2 1.4/50 46mm it was supposed to be 7 elements !

Perhaps they were overlapping in same barrel between old 8 elements optical group and newer 7 elements

My guess is that the 52mm filter size does not mean 7 elements but wider lens for internal cams in E version + standard (=nikon) filter size compared to the old 46mm which was mainly leica's (not a real competitor !).
pbfacts


PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2023 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stevemark wrote:


1st version (8L), measured: front lens diameter about 36mm, rear lens diameter about 24mm => ratio about 1.5

S


Is it really 24mm? Could you post what the rear of the lens looks like. The 8 element lens I disassembled had a rear element diameter of ~30mm, 24mm is considerably smaller than that.


PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2023 1:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alun Thomas wrote:
stevemark wrote:


1st version (8L), measured: front lens diameter about 36mm, rear lens diameter about 24mm => ratio about 1.5

S


Is it really 24mm? Could you post what the rear of the lens looks like. The 8 element lens I disassembled had a rear element diameter of ~30mm, 24mm is considerably smaller than that.


MY MISTAKE!! It is 28-29mm (free opening), so probably the rear lens of the eight lens Miranda 1.4/50mm - if dismantled - has a diameter of 30mm indeed.

I shouldn'd writing here late at night (or better: eraly in the morning) ...

Thanks for correcting me!

S