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Lens with Bokeh like Meyer Trioplan 100/2.8?
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2014 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
AlexWicks wrote:
That's a lot of replies, thanks everyone!

Those projection lenses do look interesting, and I think I'll have to get a CZJ Tessar 50/2.8 if I see a good deal on one...

As for using a projection lens, the Diaplan or the Pentacon AV discussed earlier for example, how would I go about mounting one of these to a DSLR? I assume the flange focal distance of my EOS DSLR will stop me reaching infinity?


Infinity is no problem with the 100mm projection lenses - should even work on Nikon!
Best is to have the lens with the outer housing from the projector. THis way you have inner and outer helicoid, and only need some conversion at right distance to a mount ring.

My Pentacon AV/Diaplan 80mm was easy to adapt with a bit of hot-glue Smile


PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2014 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Thanks for the advice Very Happy

After a quick look on ebay, all I can find is projectors with 80mm lenses... any idea where I could find one with an 100mm lens?


PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 4:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
woodrim wrote:

I was recently at a plantation swamp with some beautiful colors. I so much wanted to use it for a Cyclop background, but no worthy subjects. I admit the subject in this was an excuse for the photo, but nevertheless I do like it...


Nice one. I love this style of painting. It is also one of the reasons why I buy old lenses. Modern lenses do not get such a photo.
I also noticed that Primotar is able to achieve such pictures.


PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 4:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Following discussions on this topic I ordered a Tessar. Unfortunately version that I wanted (preset) is double price compared to other "newer" variants of Tessar. I hope its worth the money spent.

There is any lens with focal less than 50mm capable of this type of bokeh Question


PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 6:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
edri wrote:
Following discussions on this topic I ordered a Tessar. Unfortunately version that I wanted (preset) is double price compared to other "newer" variants of Tessar. I hope its worth the money spent.

There is any lens with focal less than 50mm capable of this type of bokeh Question


The problem with anything shorter than 50mm is the increased depth of field makes it harder to throw anything more than a few feet away out of focus enough to get the sparkling/bubbly boke' effect. The other thing is, the shorter or slower the lens, the smaller the "bubbles" are rendered. The longer and faster a lens is, the larger the bubbles are made (well distance to camera also changes the size - the farther away the highlight the larger the bubble seems to become).

Here's some examples from my Fujinon 2.2/55



PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 10:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
As Mos6502 says, it isn't impossible to get this bubble bokeh with short lenses, but it isn't easy and the shorter the focal length the smaller - all other things being equivalent.
Here is a sample from a Flektogon 4/20 lens.
Note that the lens was very close to the subject and the OOF highlights a long way behind it.
OH



PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
woodrim wrote:
AlexWicks: Tessars are plentiful and cheap. Trioplan 2.9/50 not quite as plentiful, but still not expensive. I chose the Altix version which may be a better version (hearsay) and in my opinion, gives a better ring bokeh. However, I too will be trying a Tessar just for fun. Maybe a Meritar too.

Most if not all lenses provide circles in the bokeh when shot wide open, but only the king Trioplan does it best. You'll notice the others have varying amounts of the desired ring look. Oldhand's most recent example shows rather ordinary circles in comparison.


The relative slowness and short focal length of the Tessars means fairly small bubbles compared with the Trioplan, unless you get it on extension tubes and do some close up work.
Longer lenses allow you to get more of the subject in focus, and bigger background blur simultaneously, hence the popularity of the 100mm Trioplan.


PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Oldhand wrote:
As Mos6502 says, it isn't impossible to get this bubble bokeh with short lenses, but it isn't easy and the shorter the focal length the smaller - all other things being equivalent.
Here is a sample from a Flektogon 4/20 lens.
Note that the lens was very close to the subject and the OOF highlights a long way behind it.
OH



This is quite beautiful! Just "My style" if I may say so Thomas ... Wink


PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Basilisk wrote:
woodrim wrote:
AlexWicks: Tessars are plentiful and cheap. Trioplan 2.9/50 not quite as plentiful, but still not expensive. I chose the Altix version which may be a better version (hearsay) and in my opinion, gives a better ring bokeh. However, I too will be trying a Tessar just for fun. Maybe a Meritar too.

Most if not all lenses provide circles in the bokeh when shot wide open, but only the king Trioplan does it best. You'll notice the others have varying amounts of the desired ring look. Oldhand's most recent example shows rather ordinary circles in comparison.


The relative slowness and short focal length of the Tessars means fairly small bubbles compared with the Trioplan, unless you get it on extension tubes and do some close up work.
Longer lenses allow you to get more of the subject in focus, and bigger background blur simultaneously, hence the popularity of the 100mm Trioplan.


Well, the obvious unwillingness to pay the current Trioplan prices calls for some compromises, right? Wink

The Steinheil Cassarit 3.5/100mm at work:


The Steinheil Cassarit 2.8/50mm:


The Hermagis 80mm projection lens:


PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
kds315* wrote:

Well, the obvious unwillingness to pay the current Trioplan prices calls for some compromises, right? Wink

The Hermagis 80mm projection lens:

I think most people will need to pay much more for a Hermagis 80mm projection lens than a common Trioplan 100. Wink


PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Except they find one rather cheap.... Wink Wink Wink
Those are still out there, saw a few...


PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Wider lenses are indeed more challenging for creating the effects. Every lens will do it to varying degrees, but as said before, the character of the bubble cans be vastly different. The technically best lenses will create filled circles while these coveted flawed lenses give the rings that we seek. When I receive a new lens, I always test it for bokeh characteristics. Some of the wider lenses do create the rings, but always smaller consistent with angle of view and aperture. These are a couple of Meyer examples - my test shots...

Primagon 4.5/35



Helioplan 4.5/40


I might try the Helioplan with an extension and see how it does.


PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
How about the double circle from the Kilar f2.8 90mm?
http://forum.mflenses.com/kilfitt-makro-kilar-f2-8-90mm-t68274,highlight,%2Bkilfitt.html


PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
After seeing that there are enough lenses with Trioplan bokeh style, the next topic would be "Lens with Bokeh like Kilfitt Makro-Kilar f2.8 90mm?" Fantastic bokeh.


PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
edri wrote:
After seeing that there are enough lenses with Trioplan bokeh style, the next topic would be "Lens with Bokeh like Kilfitt Makro-Kilar f2.8 90mm?" Fantastic bokeh.


That can be ended quickly - none. It is the only one to have that. Except Mirror lenses of course ...


PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 10:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
are there any documented C Mount lenses that produce a similar effect, I know there are a couple of trioplan c mounts out there but are there more triplets available?

considering the shallow dof even on the wide angle ones, I'm just wondering if something's there that can be considered to look further into.


PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 11:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I have Kodak Cine Ektar 63mm f2.0 I rate it lot higher than Trioplan 100, bokeh same or even better + swirly.


PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2014 12:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
That Cine Ektar sounds interesting - can it cover FF?


PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2014 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
kds315* wrote:
The Steinheil Cassarit 2.8/50mm:


This image appears more aggressively sharpened than your other examples, correct me if I'm wrong. Sharpening may make a big difference in this type of bokeh, so it would make comparing lenses more difficult.


PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2014 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
kds315* wrote:
edri wrote:
After seeing that there are enough lenses with Trioplan bokeh style, the next topic would be "Lens with Bokeh like Kilfitt Makro-Kilar f2.8 90mm?" Fantastic bokeh.


That can be ended quickly - none. It is the only one to have that. Except Mirror lenses of course ...


If that means the Makro-Kilar has doughnut bokeh, maybe you would like a cine lens with an internal spot filter. I used to have a C-mount 75mm f/1.3 Ernitec with such a filter:


Some test shots with that lens and a Sony NEX 5

at f/1.3:


at f/2.8:


at f/5.6:


There are some interesting lenses that have such a filter, Schneider Xenon 50mm f/0.95 sometimes do, my 70mm f2.2 Tele-Xenar and Vario Tevidons 18-90/2 and 15-150/2 do as well.


PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2014 3:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
AlexWicks wrote:
That Cine Ektar sounds interesting - can it cover FF?

No, I don't think so.


PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2014 9:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I have a couple of undadapted Sankor projection lenses (one has, I think, a 50mm thread in the back, the other tapers down, I need to measure them). I think they're both triplets and just freelensing (I used a Minolta adapter and tube and just held it in front) they provide similar bokeh. Below aren't great examples, but you get the idea.

(btw - both lenses will be on eBay soon with no reserve, would love to see someone adapt them properly)






PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2014 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
That looks like a nice lens. It is not just bokeh circles, it is a certain type of bokeh circle that looks more like rings without centers filled.


PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2014 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Thanks Woodrim, I have looked at the samples and am aware of the crazy things the Trioplan can do. I freelensed with this thing earlier on and got some shots that were very trioplan like, but I don't know where the card is. Here's another example with a little more bokeh. I will have to freelense with it outside and see if I can recreate the triplet/trioplan like effect I have seen this thing produce.



PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2014 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Steinheil München Culminar 2.8/85 VL
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