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Lens with Bokeh like Meyer Trioplan 100/2.8?
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2015 10:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bokeh like Trioplan:


more of this lens: https://www.flickr.com/photos/129563138@N03/sets/72157650823856435/


PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2015 10:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Marek wrote:
Yeah, I wrote about Telemegor to resemble Trioplan nearly a year ago Very Happy
https://www.flickr.com/photos/125619333@N08/sets/72157646006455367/

(In some aspects, I value Telemegor even more than Trioplan - better optics, nicer grass, more aquarel-like drawing, etc.)

And I bet Telemegor 150 or possible some other Telemegors (250, 400, prewar) to be the same


I still suspect some of the pictures were from Trioplan and got mixed up. Can you explain your processing of butterfly pictures?


PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2015 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

macheck wrote:
bokeh like Trioplan:


more of this lens: https://www.flickr.com/photos/129563138@N03/sets/72157650823856435/


#3 ???????????????


PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2015 11:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

woodrim wrote:
Marek wrote:
Yeah, I wrote about Telemegor to resemble Trioplan nearly a year ago Very Happy
https://www.flickr.com/photos/125619333@N08/sets/72157646006455367/

(In some aspects, I value Telemegor even more than Trioplan - better optics, nicer grass, more aquarel-like drawing, etc.)

And I bet Telemegor 150 or possible some other Telemegors (250, 400, prewar) to be the same


I still suspect some of the pictures were from Trioplan and got mixed up. Can you explain your processing of butterfly pictures?


https://www.flickr.com/photos/125619333@N08/14718914000/in/album-72157646006455367/
99,9% Telemegor. It was August already and I do remember clearly I wanted to give Telemegor a shot as I already prefered Trioplan much more that it probably deserved. I only gave 0,01% to Trioplan for case I'd suffer a premature senility. Good old Trioplan was in my bag too that day Very Happy! Besides, Trioplan doesn't draw the grass this way. I also remember the whole scene, the DOF is absolutely Telemegor compatible (I barely use those stopped down). I barely use anything but MFD and image crop either, and respecting real size of the Polyommatus coridon butterfly and worst, more distant MFD of Telemegor, one thing is clear - it absolutely fits to Telemegor again. File closed!

https://www.flickr.com/photos/125619333@N08/14902523641/in/album-72157646006455367/
As I admitted X times already, this series can be disputed. I might have used both lenses and I also used Tair. Hence it's possible to be Telemegor, Trioplan, or even combined. According to sourcefile, I tend to believe it's Telemegor again, as it lacks softness. Btw, sourcefiles of those are really shitty, due to having trouble to actually see anything in this rare midnight sun occasion. It was nothing but blind luck something at least interesting came up thanks to PP. I also do remember troubles with focusing on those butterflies, which would, again, mean rather Telemegor. The thing is, its focus ring was getting stiffer and stiffer (till last week).

https://www.flickr.com/photos/125619333@N08/14905583815/in/album-72157646006455367/
100% Telemegor. Trioplan might have been mine already, but I've waited for adapter till June. Carterocephalus palaemon doesn't fly in June here, at least not in this "mint" condition.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/125619333@N08/14905228072/in/album-72157646006455367/
100% Telemegor. Trioplan wasn't even part of my equipment yet. Besides, classic Telemegor grass again.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/125619333@N08/14882598476/in/album-72157646006455367/
100% Telemegor. Trioplan wasn't even part of my equipment yet.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/125619333@N08/14902522661/in/set-72157646006455367
100% Telemegor. Trioplan wasn't even part of my equipment yet. Again, the bokeh and drawing differs.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/125619333@N08/14905583215/in/album-72157646006455367/
DETTO.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/125619333@N08/14905582925/in/album-72157646006455367/
My first published Telemegor butterfly photo.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/125619333@N08/15429925744/in/album-72157646006455367/
This can be anything, I linked it to Telemegor just by luck. Could be even Biometar, don't really recognize the bokeh here. I don't consider it important after all, as this photo shows nothing special. Too sharp for Trioplan work, though.

Resume: there are three photos I value more than others - P. machaon, L. tityrus, B. selene couple - and all of them are 100% work of Telemegor.


@ machek great gallery, by the way.


PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2015 11:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe one sourcefile helps. File representing real sharpness and colors of my copy.



PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2015 11:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So I was right!!! Very Happy


PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Woodrim, I deliberately didn't reveal the identity of the lens since it is a shabby, uncoated old one and rather exotic too, so maybe its soap bubble bokeh is not a generic virtue. I still have to collect several of them and then maybe a general trait will be present.
All I can say it is not a Meyer or latter Pentacon product.

Marek, thank you very much, your butterflies are perfect.

Generally allow me to add something on the Trioplan like soap bubble bokeh: it is characterized by the very pronounced sharp circle (the better if it is of rainbow split colors) surrounding bokeh image that is rather dim and better semi-transparent, the best of split colors addition. AndreaEOS' last picture is superb on this, she touched the sweet point of bubbly bokeh creation (that is the distance between lens and the object and between lens and the sensor and a kind of specular reflections that were the subject of bokeh).


PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2015 9:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Today was a very overcast and dim day, but I still did some basic lens tests of new arrivals. Unfortunately I have no adapter for this one, so I had to hold it in front, but out from the flange using my hand which allowed a lot of light infiltration and no doubt a tilt. This may not be fair to ask, but it is one of the lenses discussed here and I'm wondering if anyone can identify it from its rendering...



PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2015 10:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some bokeh shots I've made yesterday. I unpacked my New Year lights for these shots...

Trioplan 100


Primotar 135


Trioplan 50 + 1.7x TC (Promaster Spectrum 7)


Quite interesting that both Telemegors I have (150 and 180) gave no bubbles at all. But I am positively sure that they do give bubbles in the sunlight. So I guess there is some kind of threshold in lights power that give those bubbles. Weak LEDs could not reach Telemegor's limits...


PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2015 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can you show the Telemegor 150 and 180 results?


PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2015 10:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry, I already deleted all that stuff... It originally was made for some initial diagnostic of my trioplan... Telemegors gave circles uniformly filled with colors, just as any modern lens...

I have one more lens that is said to be "like trioplan" - Promura 135/3.5. It's a triplet also and it should give those bubbles too. But there are no bubbles at any f number from any lights. BUT I have not tested it in sunny weather yet...


PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 12:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

woodrim wrote:
I have a Primotar on way to me and look forward to it. Those results are quite nice. I have a Primoplan which provides excellent characterful bokeh, but I have not yet figured out the conditions needed for the bokeh rings without solid centers.

Minimum focus distance, wide open, point source light some meters away.


I just tested my CZJ 80/2.8 Tessar and it produces soap bubbles, enough that I will hold off any Trioplan purchase. EDIT: Nevermind, it's not very pronounced.


Last edited by Lightshow on Sun Mar 01, 2015 2:52 am; edited 1 time in total


PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 2:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lightshow wrote:
woodrim wrote:
I have a Primotar on way to me and look forward to it. Those results are quite nice. I have a Primoplan which provides excellent characterful bokeh, but I have not yet figured out the conditions needed for the bokeh rings without solid centers.

Minimum focus distance, wide open, point source light some meters away.


I just tested my CZJ 80/2.8 Tessar and it produces soap bubbles, enough that I will hold off any Trioplan purchase.


All lenses will give the bokeh circles, but getting those Trioplan-like empty circles is the chore. I received a bunch of lenses a few days ago and am beginning to go through them. Today I tried out the Primotar 3.5/135, but was a dim and cloudy day without significant specular highlights to find for the background. These are about the best I could do today...



PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 2:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

woodrim wrote:
Lightshow wrote:
woodrim wrote:
I have a Primotar on way to me and look forward to it. Those results are quite nice. I have a Primoplan which provides excellent characterful bokeh, but I have not yet figured out the conditions needed for the bokeh rings without solid centers.

Minimum focus distance, wide open, point source light some meters away.


I just tested my CZJ 80/2.8 Tessar and it produces soap bubbles, enough that I will hold off any Trioplan purchase.

All lenses will give the bokeh circles, but getting those Trioplan-like empty circles is the chore.

I do know the difference, thanks.
I retested in darker ambient light, and it's barely noticeable now... oh well.


I thought some may find this interesting.
http://spie.org/x33126.xml


PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 6:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Snowcat wrote:
... Telemegors gave circles uniformly filled with colors, just as any modern lens...


Depends on light conditions. My Telemegor is totally different by modern lenses bokeh. It is much closer to Trioplan. I did a series of tests, here is an example of Telemegor 180/5.5 highlights bokeh, too.

http://forum.mflenses.com/testing-night-highlights-bokeh-with-some-lenses-t70200.html

Set 1 picture 3.

Lightshow wrote:

I just tested my CZJ 80/2.8 Tessar and it produces soap bubbles, enough that I will hold off any Trioplan purchase. EDIT: Nevermind, it's not very pronounced.


I think it depends a lot on shooting conditions, light, distance ...
In my tests with Tessar 50/2.8 (Set 1 picture 5 and all photos in Set2) I got kind trioplan bokeh and bokeh much different as well.

Perhaps in certain conditions the Trioplan can not get any bokeh like Trioplan type Smile


PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 9:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As now I have a collection of these lenses, I can say that trioplan itself gives those bubbles in bokeh very-very easily. Practically, you don't need to anything special, any, even weak light source becomes an empty circle. Even if I shoot street from my window in dull winter day it finds out weak car lights and turns them into those bubbles.

Trioplan 50 is the same, but as it is only 50mm vs 100mm it's bubbles are much smaller. Yet it should be a very nice street lens...

The closest to this effect is Primotar 135/3.5 (which I have for a long time), but it's circles are smaller and generally "less empty", depending on lights sources or course.

Telemegor 180 (which I have for a year or so) need strong and small light sources, like strong LEDs in the dark, or like drops of water on the grass in sunny day.

I guess Telemegor 150 will be similar to Telemegor 180...

Lydith is the hardest to get those bubbles as it's only 30mm/3.5 and has a huge DOF.

Fujinon 55/2.2 gives you similar bubbles but they are less pronounced and are often not a complete circles. Anyway this lens gives beautiful pictures, it's one of my favs. As it costs nearly nothing, I recommend it to everyone interested in MF lenses.

I also have Promura 135/3.5 which is SAID to have those circles too. I could not find them at all. Maybe the strong sunny sparks are the answer... Al I can say now, is that is' surprisingly sharp even wide open, throughout all the field of APS-C.


PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 1:06 pm    Post subject: Takumar 50/1.4? Reply with quote

It seems some of the Takumars might be capable of a bit of this. This is from a Super-Takumar 50/1.4:



Robert


PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

edri wrote:
Snowcat wrote:
... Telemegors gave circles uniformly filled with colors, just as any modern lens...


Depends on light conditions. My Telemegor is totally different by modern lenses bokeh. It is much closer to Trioplan. I did a series of tests, here is an example of Telemegor 180/5.5 highlights bokeh, too.

http://forum.mflenses.com/testing-night-highlights-bokeh-with-some-lenses-t70200.html

Set 1 picture 3.


I think it depends a lot on shooting conditions, light, distance ...


edri: I believe you have hit on a few important factors. At your other post (link above) you mentioned faint lights resulting with rings from Trioplan. I have been wondering if that is one of the keys to it - not to have very bright highlights. The bright ones seem to fill the circles. I suspect we will eventually come to the conclusion that no other lens will be exactly like Trioplan, and no other lens will deliver circles as large... or maybe I have already come to that conclusion. As a side note, not even all Trioplan provides the same. The 50mm does well, but smaller circles as pointed out. I have seen results from 140mm Diaplan and it does not seem to perform well. I have a 3.5/75 Trioplan from a box camera that I still need to test, however I am not expecting the elusive bubbles.

Yesterday I failed to achieve the desired circles with Primotar 135mm, but the lighting was not condusive; unfortunately today is as bad. I will be be testing again the Primotar and Telemegors 150mm and 180mm.


PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's nothing special about the Trioplan 100, nothing, nada, zilch, simple triplet.

The Primotar 135 is a tessar and if handled right, does those rings/bubbles/whatever you call em very well indeed - see the bokeh only thread for proof..

Keep practising, it's the technique not the lens.

I also think you could emphasise the rings with a bit of simple PP.


PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
...
I also think you could emphasise the rings with a bit of simple PP.


Where is the fun then? Lost all the charm of using an old lens.


PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

iangreenhalgh1, yes you are perfectly right, BUT trioplan 100 requires less conditions to achieve that praised bubbles in bokeh. Two years ago when I saw trioplan 100 made pictures, I said to myself "Hey, those are spherical aberrations, I am sure that this can be achieved on other then trioplan 100 lenses." And fs trioplan 100 already was rather pricey, I've started to search, buy, try. Now, two years and like 10 lenses later I've bought my trioplan 100 and even on simple tests I see the difference Smile YET you're still right.


PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Correct, Trioplan is not special. People should sell accordingly. I'll buy one out of pity.


PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Meyer f2.8/50mm Trioplan: https://www.flickr.com/photos/kds315/sets/72157647498715330/

The Steinheil Cassarit 2.8/50mm: https://www.flickr.com/photos/kds315/sets/72157647927267742/

The Steinheil Cassarit f3.5/100mm: https://www.flickr.com/photos/kds315/sets/72157648368362182/

The Minolta Rokkor-TC f4/135mm : https://www.flickr.com/photos/kds315/sets/72157647841639577/

The Meyer Orestor f2.8/100mm https://www.flickr.com/photos/kds315/sets/72157648029908525/

so many lenses are able to produce "bubbles" ....

Here the original Trioplan 2.8/100mm: https://www.flickr.com/photos/kds315/sets/72157626697409814/

If you know what causes them and how to arrange your subjects, the background and light, it is really not difficult. I can do that with about any lens... Wink


PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, Klaus, but as I annoyingly said to Lightshow, it is the character of the bubble, not just a bubble. Macheck got very close here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/129563138@N03/16504340506/in/set-72157650823856435.jpg


PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 7:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kds315, among your photos only some from ... trioplan 50 (of course!) have "that right kind of bubbles", and, of course, they are small. To give large circles a 50mm lens should have speed 1.4.

"Right" bubbles are not only non uniform, but have a sharp bright border. That what makes them so attractive. Something like this - https://www.flickr.com/photos/kds315/15323028165/in/set-72157647498715330