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which first lens...leitz/zeiss/zenit?
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2014 10:29 pm    Post subject: Re: thanks again everyone... Reply with quote
woodrim wrote:
Paul A wrote:
i am following all leads and advice...
I've been gazing at hundreds of images and to be honest my eyes are getting larger than my stomach...
soooo many great images/examples taken with these fine Euro/Russian lenses I am really completely lost now since I like most everything I see!!!! it's the operator(s) too I know.
i am having great difficulty narrowing (or even isolating) choice lenses to start with.
i can not even compile a short list(...Jena, Jupiter, Helios...) and now i know enough to know that I am not remotely aware of the multitude of fantastic lenses available.
I've already got quite a few 50s (OM 1.8 MIJ, FD SC 1.8, Auto Rikenon 55 1.4[had a AR 57 1.2]) but from what I gather none of the "absolute sharpest" ones such as the SMC and Fujinon (and maybe the AR 50 1.7?)
-Lloyd- I think I'd like to get a set (tested and somewhat CLA'd) of three or four (one each and perhaps not necessarily all belonging to one type/manufacturer) 35-ish, 50-ish, 80(or 90) ish and a 135-ish.
*i state CLA cuz i believe i read it's very easy to find someone to do it and inexpensive to have the CLA done over there as opposed to over here.
I do like the swirly bokeh effect (it will be new to me and my images) and i do enjoy shooting flowers as test subjects but i primarily shoot portraits...i'd say i am a sharpness fan first with color, contrast, bokeh, other general lens charm and personality all coming in a close second.
i do not desire any of the 1.2 or 1.4 as i haven't been too fussy over their "wide open glow" anyways so 1.8-2.8 is fine and dandy.
i do appreciate all of the replies thus far.
i am learning.
-so many helios 44.
-seems Euro (maybe not so much western germany) and Russian optics are more susceptible copy to copy IQ issues.
-sooo many cool lenses

Smile
Paul


-Where exactly is "over here"?
Western Canada

-It seems to me that you may have some conflicting requirements.
I prefer shooting portraits mainly but like to shoot/try everything. i'm no spring chicken and do appreciate flavors of old lenses (nostalgic...?...i'm not sure)
-When looking for swirly or other unique such characteristics basically caused by flaws in the optical designs, sharpness may not be as apparent as with more refined lenses.
I understand. Just want to experience/see for myself other things (optics and their charms) that aren't normally available and/or common to me here.
Then there is the issue of shooting wide open. Why? For the bokeh effects?
-i don't shoot wide open normally unless i use my modern fast digital lenses and am in low light.
-Then you will have to compromise on either sharpness or speed. If you pick a slower lens, it will be no different than stopping down a faster lens (iris shape aside).
i only assume a 2.8 lens will be as sharp (wide open at 2.Cool as a 1.2/1.4/1.8 lens at 2.8? the difference is in cost $$$ and i want o get 3-4 of these lenses for a good overall experience start. i have/had 1.2/1.4/1.8 that i do not prefer to shoot wide open due to softness/fog/glow.
-There are lenses that will give you exactly what you want, but each will likely be a compromise in some respect. If you want Eastern European, that helps narrow it down, but you're better off starting to narrow the field by prioritizing the characteristics.
good advice but beyond me right now at this stage.
-For instance, I would recommend Orestor or Kalejnar for wide open sharpness in 100mm range, but Helios 85mm for swirl. Helios is fast enough to stop down to increase sharpness, but I am unaware of impact on swirl.
i've seen great sharp Helios 40-2 85 1.5 stuff with the famous "swirl" bokeh. subject in bulls eye position with swirl surrounding her and is nice/lovely.
only thing about the 80 1.5 is i think they are out of my price range (i have a Zuiko 75 1.8 too) to start but i'll keep an eye out.
Practically anything Zeiss will give you great sharpness, but they'll be better corrected lenses, thus lacking bokeh effects. At 135mm, Orestor comes to mind again, but my choice for sharpness and bokeh at f/2.8 would be Tair.

The bottom line of what I am saying is that it is a balancing act with regard to characteristics. As a sharpness freak myself, I will say that I've learned that the difference between the most sharp lenses and the acceptably sharp is insignificant when compared to the overall image quality. A very sharp, yet sterile image will not impress as much as an image that has character. But above all of that should be a well composed, exposed, and interesting image, so the talent and skill of the photographer is paramount. To pull it all together and make the best of a lens should be the primary goal of the photographer.

Good luck.

Thanks woodrim.

WolverineX has kindly came up with a list for me to start with if sticking with strictly Euro/Russian.
"135mm lens - russian Tair 11a 135mm/2.8
80-90mm lens - russian Jupiter 9 85mm/2
50mm lens - CZJ Pancolar 50mm/1.8 "
they are all available in m42 except the Jupiter m39?
you both list the Tair so that's ONE!!!! Very Happy for sure and i love the nice circular aperture blades.!!!
i will google the Orestor or Kalejnar (probably already have but too many images in the past two-three days)
Thanks soo much again for your time and advice it will not go to waste.

Last edited by Paul A on Sun Sep 14, 2014 10:35 pm; edited 1 time in total


PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2014 10:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Most common first lens in my country (Hungary) is Helios-44 , why? tons of them made , excellent lens and inexpensive m42, so mountable on most cameras, I suggest also as first lens, give good experience on very low cost.


PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 12:51 am    Post subject: thanks Attila Reply with quote
there may be a Helios44 locally. I will try to acquire it.
i'm assuming/thinking the 44 will not have same swirly bokeh, as the 40(nor the price too of course).
i will check out some more images on the web and here.
Paul


PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 2:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Paul: I agree with the consensus that Helios-44 is a very good lens and value. Do get one. I read in your initial message that you will be shooting with a 4/3 camera, is that right? I use APS-C and see relatively little swirl from my Helios-44 lenses (several). There are people more familiar with the lens than I, but I believe it will provide the most swirl on a full frame sensor. The APS-C does not capture that outer area of the image circle and the 4/3 even less. I think it very unlikely you will see much swirl if any at all. Even with a larger format, the swirl won't occur in all shots; certain conditions need to me present. For instance, wide aperture, and certain distance to subject and (more importantly) distance behind subject (focus point). While conditions still must be met, I think you'll get more of what you're after from a Trioplan or Domiplan (good copy). The Trioplan 2.9/50 being the better choice.


PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 2:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
woodrim wrote:
Paul: I agree with the consensus that Helios-44 is a very good lens and value. Do get one. I read in your initial message that you will be shooting with a 4/3 camera, is that right? I use APS-C and see relatively little swirl from my Helios-44 lenses (several). There are people more familiar with the lens than I, but I believe it will provide the most swirl on a full frame sensor. The APS-C does not capture that outer area of the image circle and the 4/3 even less. I think it very unlikely you will see much swirl if any at all. Even with a larger format, the swirl won't occur in all shots; certain conditions need to me present. For instance, wide aperture, and certain distance to subject and (more importantly) distance behind subject (focus point). While conditions still must be met, I think you'll get more of what you're after from a Trioplan or Domiplan (good copy). The Trioplan 2.9/50 being the better choice.

Hi Woodrim,
i'm happy to report that i understand what our are saying about lens to subject and lens to BG distances and such.
I'll be shooting with m4/3 (EM1/EM5) but the sensor sizes are the same (4/3-m4/3) i believe.
makes sense that the swirlies will be 'more' on large/larger sensor=more total coverage from dead center(sweet spot) to edges.
I've looked at many many of WolverineX's samples(...cool thread).
i see the blades on the 40 (reverse flower petal pattern) are quite a bit different shaped than the regular hexagon 6 blades of the 44.
I just googled the Trioplan...really nice. I'll google the Domiplan straight away too.
It's been a real interesting and fun learning experience this past week looking at all these (images from) lenses.
(as a side note..i was thinking of changing strategies...continue with m4/3 to use more strictly with OEM m4/3 digital lenses and getting a FF body to use mainly with mf lenses)
ONE thing i was wondering about the 40-2 is QC? they started making the lens again 2012 after the hiatus from 90-ish.
Is a 2012+ (no tripod collar) 40-2 more guaranteed to be a 'good' copy?
OK, TWO things...the sharpness of 40-2...the blogger folks state it's not sharp (to them) wide open or even stopped down a few. generally not a sharp lens altogether.
but images here and there seem to suggest it's plenty sharp enough.
Thanks again.
Paul


PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 3:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Nordentro wrote:
If you like swirls, look for this lens Wink

http://manuellfokus.no/cooke-kinic-1-inch-f1-5/

wow!!! that is without a doubt..swirly.
Thanks again,
Paul


PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Paul: With certain exceptions, I don't believe there are as many copy variations as we see reported. I tend to believe it is more about different sensors and to a greater extent, photographer variations. You cannot expect an old lens like the Helios-40 to be tack sharp at f/1.5 - not from those days. However, I have seen very acceptable sharpness from that lens in pictures I have observed. But it may get back to my previous post where I said it will be a compromise between great sharpness and interesting characteristics. If you consider the lenses that are most coveted for their bokeh effects, I think you will find that they are also soft with glow. Examples are Primoplan, Trioplan 100mm, maybe Helios-40, Primotar, and Domiplan (at least mine is).

When you think about it, when usingthe Helios-40 at wide open, the point of focus is extremely shallow. If the focus isn't perfect, the image will appear soft. This could lead to the opinions about the lens as much as any copy variance. I do not have a Helios 40, but do have a Cyclop which I tend to believe is not quite up to the same standard as the normal Helios-40 lens. Still, with the right circumstances and correct focus, it performs fairly well. If you are not familiar, the Cyclop 1.5/85 is ALWAYS wide open. It can provide the swirl you like:



And can also look more normal with very decent sharpness:



Although I mentioned the Domiplan, I won't go so far as to recommend it unless you just want the fun or trying it at very low cost. On the other hand, the Trioplan 2.9/50 can be a very good lens yet still provide the swirls and bokeh rings. At least my Altix copy does. Try here for trioplan images: http://www.flickriver.com/photos/tags/trioplan+50mm/interesting/


PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 4:39 pm    Post subject: thnx Reply with quote
thanks woodrim.
i have searched the cyclops (made for night vision equipment hence the full open Av).
seems it is always 'advertised' as 'same as' the 40-2 (without blades). i guess there may be some not quite so accurate advertising.
thanks for posting the images.
right now i think the 40-2 is my favorite top choice lens and mainly for portraiture and it's strong/different wide open bokeh.
i will likely stop down (or like the option to) some at times so i'd prefer the 40-2 to the cyclops.
the lens seems plenty sharp enought for too and also i have a digital m4/3 75 1.8 for other occasions/desires.
funny thing is that i know for a fact i've seen images with that swirly bokeh some years ago and 'pooh-poohed' it. i know i knew the images came from non-Japanese (Euro) glass but that was about it.
i wrongly assumed back then that 'ALL' these Euro/Russian lenses were exoctic and surely super pricey so i just 'stayed away'.
too bad i came so late to this Euro/Russian optics party as most of the articles i read state the prices are going up up up.
Paul


PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Maybe not bad advertising; it is consensus view that Cyclop is same optics as Helios-40.


PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
woodrim wrote:
Maybe not bad advertising; it is consensus view that Cyclop is same optics as Helios-40.

cool. likely the wise choice for me since i mainly want the strong swirly but i know i will use the lens stopped down too sometimes.
right now (since i kinda blew my 'fun' budget for a while..[i pre-ordered the new Oly 40-150 w/TC about a week after i received Fred Mirandas mint FD300/4L Laughing ...i may need to hold off a while or the wife may have a heart attack... Razz ] the 40-2 will likely have to wait a while. So the Trioplan 50/2.9. and one or two other less expensive lenses will be what i am trying to get...i've ebayed the Trioplan and there are really hardly any available.
I PM'd LLoyd a few days back about a possible package deal but have not heard back yet (hope he's OK).
Paul


PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2014 3:47 am    Post subject: UPDATE!!!...and one problem!!! Reply with quote
i remembered an old old old camera shop and visited it today.
unfortunately there was only about 4-5 m42 mount (german/Russian) and i bought 3 and two Taks.
there were a few older, and very old leica/CZ/jupiter stuff but nothing i recognized (odd mounts) and nothing that looked very appealing.
so...i bought the following m42...

S-M-C 1.4/50 Tak 8 blades s#5339249 *it's this lens i am having the issue with...
SMC 55/2 Tak 6 blades s#8049460
Pancolar ausJena 1.8/50 8 blades s#8542370
Helios 44M-4 6 blades s#87064933
Helios 44-2 8 blades s#7382480

*the 1.4/50 Tak is fine until i fully mount it to my adapter. once threaded all the way the aperture register (the thin 1/4" metal tab that slides when adjusting aperture) tab binds (i guess) and i can not adjust aperture at all or focus even close to infinity.
i'm guessing i'd need to shave down the inner lip of the adapter...i'm no machinist so i think i'll trade in the 1.4 for something else.

everything else seems fine other than a pretty stiff focus ring on the Pancolor.

there were a couple of Penatcon (one had some real sloooooowwww blades and the other had a lot of 'particles' (bigger than dust)
and there was also a Domiplan but all of those lenses were not appealing (very, very, very far from ECX++)
as it was it took it some time and elbow grease to de-crud the lenses i ended up with.
no Trioplan, 40-2, Tair, or anything i recognized.
way too many 50s now ( i already have OM 1.8, FD SC 1.8, and, Rikenon AUTO 55mm f/1.4, but i'll def get rid of some/most.
Paul
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