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yaya67
Joined: 15 May 2014 Posts: 4
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Posted: Thu May 15, 2014 4:50 pm Post subject: Helios 44M-4 58mm f2 versus Meyer Optik Primoplan 58mm f1.9 |
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yaya67 wrote:
Hello,
What are the differences between these 2 lens?
Helios 44M-4 58mm f2 versus Meyer Optik Primoplan 58mm f1.9
Best bokeh?
Best sharpness?
Knowing that one costs 10 times more than the other ...
This is it worth it ? |
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Gerald
Joined: 25 Mar 2014 Posts: 1196 Location: Brazil
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Posted: Thu May 15, 2014 7:52 pm Post subject: |
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Gerald wrote:
Hi,
I guess the Meyer Primoplan is technically inferior (has more aberrations) to the Helios 44M-4. The Primoplan appears to be an enhanced (faster) version of the Cooke triplet, where the front element was replaced by a complex combination of three elements:
figure extracted from http://www.taunusreiter.de/Cameras/Biotar_en.html
When Meyer diluted into VEB Pentacon, the manufacturing of the Primoplan was dropped and the fast standard lenses manufactured by Pentacon and Zeiss Jena were based on the double Gauss design, like the Helios 44M-4, which is a clone of the Zeiss Biotar.
Why is the Primoplan so more expensive than the Helios? Probably because the Primoplan is relatively rare and has become a collector's item. If a person is interested only in the photographic result, the Helios 44M-4 is a much better choice, I think. _________________ If raindrops were perfect lenses, the rainbow did not exist. |
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luisalegria
Joined: 07 Mar 2008 Posts: 6627 Location: San Francisco, USA
Expire: 2018-01-18
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Posted: Thu May 15, 2014 8:03 pm Post subject: |
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luisalegria wrote:
The Primoplan is supposed to have more interesting defects and bokeh than the double Gauss type lenses.
And I guess that some of the bokeh artifacts like swirling, etc. are more intense indeed.
Hence it is in demand for artistic purposes, particularly in Asia.
Much like the Trioplan 100/2.8
I had one and sold it a few years ago. Bokeh-centric photography seems to be something I just can't do. Its harder than it looks. _________________ I like Pentax DSLR's, Exaktas, M42 bodies of all kinds, strange and cheap Japanese lenses, and am dabbling in medium format/Speed Graphic work. |
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yaya67
Joined: 15 May 2014 Posts: 4
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Posted: Thu May 15, 2014 8:23 pm Post subject: |
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yaya67 wrote:
that really enjoys is the bokeh shaped bubble
but the swirling bokeh of helios 44M-4 has not much to envy compared to 58mm f1.9 primoplan
but I think the bubbles are really more pronounced with trioplan |
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std
Joined: 09 Feb 2010 Posts: 1827 Location: Bulgaria
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Posted: Fri May 16, 2014 6:27 am Post subject: |
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std wrote:
Primoplan is a better lens in every aspect: build quality, materials, tolerances, it has better oof rendering, and wide open more smooth and interesting bokeh.
Helioses were mass produced in million copies and tend to have poor quality very often due to lousy quality control.
Still If you are not obsessed with the lenses you use, and you do not want to spend a lot of money the Helios can do a similar job for you for a fraction of the price. _________________ Stefan
My lens list:
SLR MD: Rokkor 1,7/50 Exakta: Kilfitt-Makro-Kilar E 3.5/4cm; CZJ 2/50 Pancolar;M42: CZJ 2.8/50 Tessar; Mir-1B 2.8/37; Jupiter-9 2/85 T-mount: Tamron 5.9/200; Tamron 6.9/300; Tamron 7.5/400 C-mount: Cosmicar 1.8/50 Y/S: Sun 3.5/38-90, Sun 4/70-210 RF Contax RF: Jupiter-8 2/50; Contax G:CZ 2,8/21 Biogon T; CZ 2,8/28 Biogon T; CZ 2/35 Planar T; CZ 2/45 Planar T; CZ 2,8/90 Sonnar T |
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asfethan
Joined: 08 Apr 2014 Posts: 74 Location: Bratislava, Slovakia
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Posted: Fri May 16, 2014 9:44 am Post subject: |
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asfethan wrote:
std wrote: |
Primoplan is a better lens in every aspect: build quality, materials, tolerances, it has better oof rendering, and wide open more smooth and interesting bokeh.
Helioses were mass produced in million copies and tend to have poor quality very often due to lousy quality control.
Still If you are not obsessed with the lenses you use, and you do not want to spend a lot of money the Helios can do a similar job for you for a fraction of the price. |
I can't agree with that. Every Helios I have was solid like a rock. My collegue almost unscrew it from his Canon EOS-M when he tried to change aperture. And I love them because they are sharp like a razor. Take a look at some examples bellow.
f/8
_________________ best regards, Jaroslav
flickr
camera
Pentax K10D
lenses
Hoya HMC wide-auto f2.8/28mm (PK)
Auto Chinon Multi-Coated f1.4/50mm (PK)
SMC Pentax-A f1.7/50mm (PK)
Porst Tele MC auto D f2.8/135mm (M42)
Hoya HMC tele-auto f3.5/200mm (PK)
Hoya HMC zoom f4/80-200mm (PK)
software
RawTherapee
Gimp
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yaya67
Joined: 15 May 2014 Posts: 4
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Posted: Fri May 16, 2014 10:01 am Post subject: |
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yaya67 wrote:
Between the model and primoplan 58mm f1.9 and the trioplan 100mm f2.8
someone have a preference ?
why ?
in fact I already have a helios 44M-4 and I'd like to know if it will give me something to acquire a primoplan 58mm or better it I take a trioplan? |
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atiratha
Joined: 07 Mar 2009 Posts: 77 Location: Czech Republic, Prague
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Posted: Fri May 16, 2014 11:27 am Post subject: |
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atiratha wrote:
The Primoplan, though being a wonderful lens, has only a very small portion of center really sharp wide open (even on APS-C) The corners are really terrible. You'd be better off woth the Biotar or Helios, I think. _________________ In my bag: Fuji X-T20, Samyang 12/2, Voigtlander Ultron 28/2, Voigtlander Nokton Classic 40/1.4, Mitakon Speedmaster 35/0.95, 7artisans 50/1.1, Canon LTM 100/3.5, Canon LTM 135/3.5. www.vh-photo.tk |
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Mos6502
Joined: 20 Jun 2011 Posts: 961 Location: Austin
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Posted: Fri May 16, 2014 11:45 am Post subject: |
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Mos6502 wrote:
I don't really have much nice to say about the primoplan. Objectively - it is worse than the Helios in every quantifiable measure. It's not even a contest. There's a lot of reasons Meyer dropped it and went to a double gauss type. Subjectively, the rendering it delivers, especially wide open is amongst the ugliest out there. I frankly don't get the hype over the way it draws, wide open it is worse than even the worst triplets I've encountered.
The trioplan is another over-hyped lens, but at least it gives nice results. It's not really much different from other Meyer lenses, it sort of typifies the "Meyer look" actually. The Oreston and Domiplan give the same sort of sparkly bokeh, they just unfortunately do not have the number of diaphragm blades to deliver it at apertures other than wide open. |
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std
Joined: 09 Feb 2010 Posts: 1827 Location: Bulgaria
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Posted: Fri May 16, 2014 11:47 am Post subject: |
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std wrote:
My opinion is based on my personal experience with the Primoplan and several Helios'es i have owned.
I'm not saying that Helios is not good or not sharp, it's just not my lens. I don't like the busy background , the flare, the colors, the build quality.
If i had to choose again i will get Primoplan or an early Biotar, but that's just me - i like old lenses better
It's not about the sharpness it's the way it makes pictures, the colors the clarity the rendering. _________________ Stefan
My lens list:
SLR MD: Rokkor 1,7/50 Exakta: Kilfitt-Makro-Kilar E 3.5/4cm; CZJ 2/50 Pancolar;M42: CZJ 2.8/50 Tessar; Mir-1B 2.8/37; Jupiter-9 2/85 T-mount: Tamron 5.9/200; Tamron 6.9/300; Tamron 7.5/400 C-mount: Cosmicar 1.8/50 Y/S: Sun 3.5/38-90, Sun 4/70-210 RF Contax RF: Jupiter-8 2/50; Contax G:CZ 2,8/21 Biogon T; CZ 2,8/28 Biogon T; CZ 2/35 Planar T; CZ 2/45 Planar T; CZ 2,8/90 Sonnar T |
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asfethan
Joined: 08 Apr 2014 Posts: 74 Location: Bratislava, Slovakia
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Posted: Fri May 16, 2014 12:25 pm Post subject: |
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asfethan wrote:
I still don't understand that thing about build quality cause my opinion is that you need a higly skilled demoliton expert to hurt soviet lenses
Or maybe a blonde because if you give her two iron balls she will break one an lose another _________________ best regards, Jaroslav
flickr
camera
Pentax K10D
lenses
Hoya HMC wide-auto f2.8/28mm (PK)
Auto Chinon Multi-Coated f1.4/50mm (PK)
SMC Pentax-A f1.7/50mm (PK)
Porst Tele MC auto D f2.8/135mm (M42)
Hoya HMC tele-auto f3.5/200mm (PK)
Hoya HMC zoom f4/80-200mm (PK)
software
RawTherapee
Gimp
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Gerald
Joined: 25 Mar 2014 Posts: 1196 Location: Brazil
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Posted: Fri May 16, 2014 12:54 pm Post subject: |
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Gerald wrote:
Mos6502 wrote: |
I don't really have much nice to say about the primoplan. Objectively - it is worse than the Helios in every quantifiable measure. It's not even a contest. There's a lot of reasons Meyer dropped it and went to a double gauss type. |
After WWII, when the Russians decided which lens they would produce by millions, they chose Biotar, which was cloned as Helios 44. Russians knew what they were doing! Biotar was Zeiss, Primoplan was Meyer, the German Sigma of the time. Even Pentacon, former Meyer, abandoned the Primoplan and started producing normal 50mm lenses based on the Biotar.
Interestingly, many people are starting to appreciate what was considered obsolete 50 years ago. This is the case of Primoplan and Triotar, lenses from obscure Japanese brands, Petzval lenses, etc. There would be no problem with that if people already had these lenses, or if they were cheap. However, many people are willing to pay for them as much as costs a Sigma Art. This is crazy! _________________ If raindrops were perfect lenses, the rainbow did not exist. |
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calvin83
Joined: 12 Apr 2009 Posts: 7554 Location: Hong Kong
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Posted: Fri May 16, 2014 1:50 pm Post subject: |
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calvin83 wrote:
Primoplan, Trioplan, Petzval or other rare lens from Europe are collectible fashions in Easter Asia. Sharpness may not be the main concern here but the bokeh/color/flare etc do. _________________ https://lensfever.com/
https://www.instagram.com/_lens_fever/
The best lens is the one you have with you. |
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yaya67
Joined: 15 May 2014 Posts: 4
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Posted: Fri May 16, 2014 2:00 pm Post subject: |
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yaya67 wrote:
For me, I think it is worth buying a lens m42/m39/exakta ... if the price remains low.
These lens possible to have a different bokeh and make different shots, or acquire such a 135mm at a price 10 times lower.
But it will tell me what is the point of buying an old lens if the price is the same as a new lens that will be adapted to dslr and has AF (unless it is a collector) ... |
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Pancolart
Joined: 04 Feb 2008 Posts: 3693 Location: Slovenia, EU
Expire: 2013-11-18
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Posted: Fri May 16, 2014 4:05 pm Post subject: |
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Pancolart wrote:
I did a little comparison between: Biotar, Pancolar, Oreston, Primoplan and Helios v6 v7 on full frame a while ago:
http://forum.mflenses.com/6x-shootout-biotar-pancolar-oreston-primoplan-helios-v6-v7-t31237.html _________________ ---------------------------------
The Peculiar Apparatus Of Victorian Steampunk Photography: 100+ Genuine Steampunk Camera Designs https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0B92829NS |
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drjs
Joined: 25 Feb 2013 Posts: 485 Location: USA
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Posted: Fri May 16, 2014 4:06 pm Post subject: |
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drjs wrote:
Mos6502 wrote: |
Interestingly, many people are starting to appreciate what was considered obsolete 50 years ago. This is the case of Primoplan and Triotar, lenses from obscure Japanese brands, Petzval lenses, etc. There would be no problem with that if people already had these lenses, or if they were cheap. However, many people are willing to pay for them as much as costs a Sigma Art. This is crazy! |
Quality and popularity aren't necessarily the same thing. People buy things for all sorts of reasons, in many case for emotional reasons. Also, price doesn't necessarily have any relationship with quality either. Some people simply don't know better while others want it simply because it is rare. _________________ Follow me on 500px |
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Lightshow
Joined: 04 Nov 2011 Posts: 3669 Location: Calgary
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Posted: Fri May 16, 2014 6:41 pm Post subject: |
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Lightshow wrote:
People will buy lenses for many reasons, sharpness, color, rendering, AF performance, feel, look, reputation, etc...
I'm trying to get a sample of everything, a difficult task for sure, but it is nice to have a choice of looks/rendering/sharpness to choose from to match what you want to do. _________________ A Manual Focus Junky...
One photographers junk lens is an artists favorite tool.
My lens list
http://www.flickr.com/photos/lightshow-photography/ |
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