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streetwaves
Joined: 17 Dec 2008
Posts: 57
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 Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 3:01 am Post subject: Difference between 8-element Super Takumar 1.4/50 and 7? |
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streetwaves wrote:
Hey guys, I'm wondering if there's any difference between the older 8-element Super Takumar 1.4/50 and the newer 7-element one in terms of image quality/sharpness. The lens is known to be quite sharp, so I want to make sure I don't buy the 8-element if it's not quite as good!
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Ballu
Joined: 28 Feb 2007
Posts: 912
Location: Columbus, OH. USofA
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| Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 3:49 am Post subject: Re: Difference between 8-element Super Takumar 1.4/50 and 7? |
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Ballu wrote:
| streetwaves wrote: |
| Hey guys, I'm wondering if there's any difference between the older 8-element Super Takumar 1.4/50 and the newer 7-element one in terms of image quality/sharpness. The lens is known to be quite sharp, so I want to make sure I don't buy the 8-element if it's not quite as good! |
Whats the ref point of this information..
I was thinking, SMC has only coating difference from Takumar 50mm f1.4. Other change was number of blades in aperture iris. SMC has more blades and better OOF control, SMC is considered (I havent used SMC yet, but I can think of) much more sharper than Super-Takumar model.
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Abbazz
Joined: 23 Jun 2007
Posts: 1098
Location: Jakarta
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| Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 6:16 am Post subject: Re: Difference between 8-element Super Takumar 1.4/50 and 7? |
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Abbazz wrote:
| streetwaves wrote: |
| Hey guys, I'm wondering if there's any difference between the older 8-element Super Takumar 1.4/50 and the newer 7-element one in terms of image quality/sharpness. The lens is known to be quite sharp, so I want to make sure I don't buy the 8-element if it's not quite as good! |
Gerjan van Oosten says (about the 7 element Super-Takumar, which appeared in 1965):
"New optical design with one lens element less than its predecessor. Improved image quality."
[Quoted from Gerjan van Oosten, The Ultimate Asahi pentax Screw Mount Guide 1952-1977, ISBN 90-76537-02-X]
Anyway, the 8 element Super-Takumar (part number 358 or 35800) was only produced for less than 2 years and is somewhat rare compared to the 7 element Super-Takumar (part number 378, 37800, 37801 or 37802), which has been in production for almost 6 years.
BTW, nice avatar.
Cheers!
Abbazz
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KhanX
Joined: 06 Sep 2007
Posts: 430
Location: Bangkok, Thailand, München, Göttingen, Germany
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| Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 6:40 am Post subject: Re: Difference between 8-element Super Takumar 1.4/50 and 7? |
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KhanX wrote:
| Abbazz wrote: |
| streetwaves wrote: |
| Hey guys, I'm wondering if there's any difference between the older 8-element Super Takumar 1.4/50 and the newer 7-element one in terms of image quality/sharpness. The lens is known to be quite sharp, so I want to make sure I don't buy the 8-element if it's not quite as good! |
Gerjan van Oosten says (about the 7 element Super-Takumar, which appeared in 1965):
"New optical design with one lens element less than its predecessor. Improved image quality."
[Quoted from Gerjan van Oosten, The Ultimate Asahi pentax Screw Mount Guide 1952-1977, ISBN 90-76537-02-X]
Anyway, the 8 element Super-Takumar (part number 358 or 35800) was only produced for less than 2 years and is somewhat rare compared to the 7 element Super-Takumar (part number 378, 37800, 37801 or 37802), which has been in production for almost 6 years.
BTW, nice avatar.
Cheers!
Abbazz |
Good informations, Abbazz, I really have known it. 
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Camera : Leica M8, Sony Nex5, Sigma SD14, Canon 5D, Olympus E-1, Panasonic DMC L1, Pentax K10D Grand Prix, Nikon D1X, Contax RTS III, Contax 167MT, Exakta RTL1000, Minolta X-700, Canon T90, Canon F-1, Pentacon Six TL
Lens :
Tele : Canon FD 300mm f2.8 s.s.c. fluorite, Mamiya 645 500mm f5.6, Pentacon 500mm f5.6, Sigma APO 300mm f4 macro, Nikkor Reflex C 500mm f8, Canon FD 200mm f2.8 s.s.c., Rubinar 300mm f4.5 mirror
Macro : Vivitar Series 1 90mm f2.8, Vivitar VMC 100mm f2.8 Macro, Panagor PMC 90mm f2.8, Edicar 90mm f2.8 Macro, Nikon Micro 55mm f3.5, Takumar 50mm f4 Macro, Nikon Non AI 55mm f3.5 Micro, SMC Takumar 100mm f4 macro, Canon FD 100mm f4 Macro, Canon FD 200mm f4 Macro, Volna-9 50mm f2.8
Short tele : Pentacon Six 120mm f2.8, Carl Zeiss Contax T* 100mm f2, Meyer optik Trioplan 100MM F2.8, Porst 135mm f1.8, Sigmatel ys 135mm f1.8, Schneider 135mm f3.5, Makinon 135mm f3.5, Komura 135mm f3.5, Hexanon 100mm f2.8, Schneider Variogon 80-240mm 4.5, Schneider 135mm f4
Normal : Canon 50mm f0.95, Schneider 50mm f0.95, Hexanon 57mm f1.2, Hexanon 40mm f1.8, Taylor hobson 50mm f1.8, Cooke Kinetal 50mm f1.8, Canon EF 28mm f2.8, Leica 14-50mm f2.8-3.5 Mega O.I.S., Carl Zeiss Contax Distagon 18mm f4, Carl Zeiss Contax Planar T* 50mm f1.4, Carl Zeiss Contax 35mm f1.4, Carl Zeiss Vario-Sonnar T* 28-70mm f3.5-5.6 Macro, Yashica 35mm f2.8, Helios 44-2/58, Helios 85mm f1.5, Pentax SMC-M 50mm f1.4, Pentax SMC-F 28mm f2.8, Minolta MD Rokkor 28mm f2.8, Minolta MD Rokkor 35mm f2.8, Minolta MD Rokkor 50mm f1.7, Minolta MC PF Rokkor 50mm f1.4, Porst 28mm f2.8, Meyer - Optik Lydith 30mm f3.5, Nikon AIS 50mm f1.2, Tamron SP 28mm f2.8 adaptall, Pentax SMC Takumar 85mm f1.8, Vivitar Series 1 55mm f1.2, Canon FD 85mm f1.2L, Canon FD 55mm f1.2L, Angenieux 135mm f3.5, Cooke Kinetal 75mm f2.6, Steinheil 85mm f2.8, Leica M 50mm f2, Zeiss flextogon 35mm f2.4, Pancolar 50mm f1.8, Schneider Xenar 85mm f4
Wide : Leica Elmerit M 28mm f2.8 asph, Zeiss Contax 21mm f2.8, Zeiss Flextogon 20mm f2.8, Exakta 24mm f2.8 macro, Tokina 17mm f4 |
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Spotmatic
Joined: 18 Aug 2008
Posts: 4045
Location: Netherlands
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| Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 7:55 am Post subject: Re: Difference between 8-element Super Takumar 1.4/50 and 7? |
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Spotmatic wrote:
[quote="Abbazz"]
| streetwaves wrote: |
Gerjan van Oosten says (about the 7 element Super-Takumar, which appeared in 1965):
"New optical design with one lens element less than its predecessor. Improved image quality."
[Quoted from Gerjan van Oosten, The Ultimate Asahi pentax Screw Mount Guide 1952-1977, ISBN 90-76537-02-X]
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A bit off-topic: Gerjan van Oosten was a former colleague of mine and the person solely responsible for infecting me with the Pentax virus. Who wouldn't if you were shown a mint Pentax LX with its removable finder? 
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Peter - Moderator
Pentax K-5 + Pentax 645 + Canon 5D + Bessa RF 10,5cm Heliar, and a 'little' bag full of MF lenses. The lens list is * here *.
My fast 80s: Asahi-Kogaku Takumar 83mm f/1.9 - Super-Takumar 85mm f/1.9 - FA 77mm f/1.8 Limited - Cyclop 85/1.5 (Helios-40 innards) - Komura 80mm f/1.8 - Meyer Görlitz Primoplan 7,5cm 1:1.9 - Carl Zeiss Jena 80mm f/1.8 Pancolar - Canon 85mm f/1.8 S.S.C. - Canon 85mm f/1.2 S.S.C. Aspherical |
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Mal1905
Joined: 30 Oct 2008
Posts: 1705
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Expire: 2011-11-18
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| Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 8:54 am Post subject: |
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Mal1905 wrote:
I'll be eternally grateful if anybody can tell me where to find a copy of Mr van Oosten's book - it's been on my wish-list for a while now 
Interesting information about the life-span of the 8-element lenses - thank you. |
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no-X
Joined: 19 Jul 2008
Posts: 2495
Location: Budejky, Czech Republic
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| Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 9:23 am Post subject: |
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no-X wrote:
I tested about 10 50/1.4 Takumars and none of them was 8-element. They are very rare.
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Spotmatic
Joined: 18 Aug 2008
Posts: 4045
Location: Netherlands
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| Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 11:04 am Post subject: |
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Spotmatic wrote:
| Mal1905 wrote: |
| I'll be eternally grateful if anybody can tell me where to find a copy of Mr van Oosten's book - it's been on my wish-list for a while now |
You can contact Gerjan directly: http://www.aocn.nl/html/contact.htm. If there any books left, ask for a signed copy
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Peter - Moderator
Pentax K-5 + Pentax 645 + Canon 5D + Bessa RF 10,5cm Heliar, and a 'little' bag full of MF lenses. The lens list is * here *.
My fast 80s: Asahi-Kogaku Takumar 83mm f/1.9 - Super-Takumar 85mm f/1.9 - FA 77mm f/1.8 Limited - Cyclop 85/1.5 (Helios-40 innards) - Komura 80mm f/1.8 - Meyer Görlitz Primoplan 7,5cm 1:1.9 - Carl Zeiss Jena 80mm f/1.8 Pancolar - Canon 85mm f/1.8 S.S.C. - Canon 85mm f/1.2 S.S.C. Aspherical |
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Brian
Joined: 10 May 2008
Posts: 83
Location: Virginia, US
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| Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 1:16 pm Post subject: |
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Brian wrote:
Does anyone have the serial number range of the 8-element lens?
Does it also use Thorium glass?
I've got a hot-glass 50/1.4 that I let sit in front of a UV light for a few days to tame the yellowed glass. It's a great performer. With the Thorium glass, it's hard to see why anyone would go to an 8-element design. |
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Abbazz
Joined: 23 Jun 2007
Posts: 1098
Location: Jakarta
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| Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 1:52 pm Post subject: |
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Abbazz wrote:
| Brian wrote: |
| Does anyone have the serial number range of the 8-element lens? |
I don't, but the part number is engraved under the auto/manual switch.
| Brian wrote: |
| Does it also use Thorium glass? |
No idea but I would guess not.
| Brian wrote: |
| I've got a hot-glass 50/1.4 that I let sit in front of a UV light for a few days to tame the yellowed glass. It's a great performer. With the Thorium glass, it's hard to see why anyone would go to an 8-element design. |
Another quote from G. van Oosten's book: "This lens initially was comprised of 8 elements. It was followed by a newly designed lens that yielded a better sharpness and a higher image contrast than its predecessor. The new lens has a seven element construction instead of eight".
It would make sense to me that the secret weapon that allowed Asahi Optical Co. to manufacture a better lens with less elements was the new thoriated glass.
Cheers!
Abbazz
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no-X
Joined: 19 Jul 2008
Posts: 2495
Location: Budejky, Czech Republic
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| Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:33 pm Post subject: |
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no-X wrote:
No, the 8-element version doesn't containt thoriated element. The later version use thorium to reduce the number of optical elements.
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peterqd
Joined: 28 Feb 2007
Posts: 7448
Location: near High Wycombe, UK
Expire: 2014-01-04
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| Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:42 pm Post subject: |
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peterqd wrote:
There were actually three different Super-Takumar 1.4/50s (not including S-M-C and SMC). The first model (1964-1966) has 8 elements in 7 groups, the part number stamped on the A-M switch is 358. This lens does NOT have the thoriated element. The infrared focus mark is inside the f4 mark on the depth of field scale and the rear element protrudes outside its metal rim.
The second and third models (1967-1971) both have 7 elements in 6 groups and both have the Thorium element. Part numbers are 378 and 37801. The infrared mark is between f4 and f8 and the rear element is more enclosed by the metal rim.
Even though the first is not thoriated, all three models can still appear yellow in photographs due to the reflection of the old method of coating before SMC.
Some details here
http://www.aohc.it/tak03e.htm
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Ballu
Joined: 28 Feb 2007
Posts: 912
Location: Columbus, OH. USofA
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| Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 6:55 pm Post subject: Re: Difference between 8-element Super Takumar 1.4/50 and 7? |
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Ballu wrote:
| KhanX wrote: |
Gerjan van Oosten says (about the 7 element Super-Takumar, which appeared in 1965):
"New optical design with one lens element less than its predecessor. Improved image quality."
[Quoted from Gerjan van Oosten, The Ultimate Asahi pentax Screw Mount Guide 1952-1977, ISBN 90-76537-02-X]
Anyway, the 8 element Super-Takumar (part number 358 or 35800) was only produced for less than 2 years and is somewhat rare compared to the 7 element Super-Takumar (part number 378, 37800, 37801 or 37802), which has been in production for almost 6 years. |
Good informations, Abbazz, I really have known it. [/quote]
yes... Good information... thanks
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Sevo
Joined: 22 Aug 2008
Posts: 1189
Location: Frankfurt, Germany
Expire: 2012-12-03
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| Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 7:10 pm Post subject: |
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Sevo wrote:
| peterqd wrote: |
The second and third models (1967-1971) both have 7 elements in 6 groups and both have the Thorium element. |
Which surprises me somewhat - I always thought that the thoriated element was a relic of a relatively old design, and not introduced as late as '67. By the mid sixties, their production was already encumbered with workplace safety and waste disposal regulations, and the yellowing/aging issue was well known, so that other manufacturers were dropping or replacing their existing thoriated designs by that time.
Sevo |
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peterqd
Joined: 28 Feb 2007
Posts: 7448
Location: near High Wycombe, UK
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| Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 7:58 pm Post subject: |
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peterqd wrote:
As far as I kow, the thoriated SMC 1.4/50 M42 lenses continued until 1975, when the K mount lenses were introduced.
Far too much fuss is made about the radiation in these lenses in my opinion. The level of radiation is extremely low, less than ambient in some places in the world. It has to be, otherwise it would fog the film. I don't know how it compares with workplace safety levels though.
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no-X
Joined: 19 Jul 2008
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Location: Budejky, Czech Republic
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| Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 8:10 pm Post subject: |
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no-X wrote:
Radiation doesn't always cause yellowing. The yellow part is not the glass, but optical glue and not each optical glue is prone to coloration. Some lenses build by Tomioka are radioactive, too, but they doesn't turn yellow, or only slightly (e.g. some DS-M Yashinons).
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Sevo
Joined: 22 Aug 2008
Posts: 1189
Location: Frankfurt, Germany
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| Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 9:38 pm Post subject: |
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Sevo wrote:
| peterqd wrote: |
| The level of radiation is extremely low, less than ambient in some places in the world. It has to be, otherwise it would fog the film. I don't know how it compares with workplace safety levels though. |
Lens cutting and polishing is the problem - alpha radioactive dust and slurry are nothing you'd want to expose the workers or downstream population to.
Sevo |
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taunusreiter
Joined: 20 Mar 2007
Posts: 127
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| Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 11:21 pm Post subject: |
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taunusreiter wrote:
IMHO the older lens is without Thorium glass. Mine is completely clear (no yellowing). It can be identified by S/N (in the 1,000,000 range), older type of letters on lensring. The outlay is somewhat smaller, but the rear lens intrudes more into the camera than with the 7-element version.
I have some pictures of the 8-elements lens and of the latest, SMC full metal version here (scroll a bit down):
http://www.taunusreiter.de/Cameras/Pentax_S1.html
HAPPY NEW YEAR,
Frank
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streetwaves
Joined: 17 Dec 2008
Posts: 57
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| Posted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 12:53 am Post subject: |
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streetwaves wrote:
Okay guys, so I'm confused.
What I'm wondering is, are these the best "versions" of the lenses, or should I maybe keep a lookout for different versions?
Asahi Opt. Co., Super-Takumar 1:2 / 55 (981602)
Asahi Opt. Co., Super-Takumar 3.5 / 35 (1921982)
Reading about the older, less impressive 8-element lenses, that got me wondering if these two were also technically inferior. I've read nothing but good about Super-Takumars, but I'm pretty confused about whether these lenses are the good ones or if I need some sort of "Super-Multi-Coated" later version for the acclaim to apply. If so, please let me know what I should look for (I'll want to buy the same lenses, but their best versions). Thanks to anyone can help!
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peterqd
Joined: 28 Feb 2007
Posts: 7448
Location: near High Wycombe, UK
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| Posted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 2:24 am Post subject: |
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peterqd wrote:
streetwaves, can you quote the part numbers stamped on the back side of the A-M switch? The serial numbers don't mean a lot.
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streetwaves
Joined: 17 Dec 2008
Posts: 57
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| Posted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 3:24 am Post subject: |
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streetwaves wrote:
| peterqd wrote: |
| streetwaves, can you quote the part numbers stamped on the back side of the A-M switch? The serial numbers don't mean a lot. |
Okay, but I'm having trouble finding them. I don't see anything on or around the A-M switch except for those two letters.
\EDIT: I'm pretty sure the 3.5/35 is Asahi Pt. # 43571, via this page: http://www.aohc.it/tak02e.htm since only two 3.5/35's have a minimum aperture of 16 (mine does), and my lens doesn't say "SMC" (or Super-Multi-Coated).
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Spotmatic
Joined: 18 Aug 2008
Posts: 4045
Location: Netherlands
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| Posted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 6:57 am Post subject: |
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Spotmatic wrote:
| streetwaves wrote: |
Reading about the older, less impressive 8-element lenses, that got me wondering if these two were also technically inferior. I've read nothing but good about Super-Takumars, but I'm pretty confused about whether these lenses are the good ones or if I need some sort of "Super-Multi-Coated" later version for the acclaim to apply. If so, please let me know what I should look for (I'll want to buy the same lenses, but their best versions). Thanks to anyone can help! |
It's good to know that there are no "inferior" Takumars, unless you take into account the much later K-mount Takumars which are budget lenses. The differences between different versions (SMC versus Super) are not that big, there will always be differences but not by night and day. The non-SMC's can be a bit more prone to flare if you are shooting into the sun but how often do you do that?
Maybe it's best to try them out for yourself. If you don't like the Super then sell it and get a SMC. Most of us here do it the same way (although I usually don't sell anything )
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Peter - Moderator
Pentax K-5 + Pentax 645 + Canon 5D + Bessa RF 10,5cm Heliar, and a 'little' bag full of MF lenses. The lens list is * here *.
My fast 80s: Asahi-Kogaku Takumar 83mm f/1.9 - Super-Takumar 85mm f/1.9 - FA 77mm f/1.8 Limited - Cyclop 85/1.5 (Helios-40 innards) - Komura 80mm f/1.8 - Meyer Görlitz Primoplan 7,5cm 1:1.9 - Carl Zeiss Jena 80mm f/1.8 Pancolar - Canon 85mm f/1.8 S.S.C. - Canon 85mm f/1.2 S.S.C. Aspherical |
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Brian
Joined: 10 May 2008
Posts: 83
Location: Virginia, US
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| Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 12:54 am Post subject: |
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Brian wrote:
Okay! My 50/1.4 is a 37801. Found on the A/M switch.
My 85/4.5 Ultra-Achromat is a 43851, also found on the A/M switch. I suspect that is the Asahi part number. This lens is Asahi Optical on the name ring.
Now- what other Pentax lenses can I look for numbers that I never noticed before!
Thankyou for this information. |
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Abbazz
Joined: 23 Jun 2007
Posts: 1098
Location: Jakarta
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| Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 4:56 am Post subject: |
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Abbazz wrote:
| Brian wrote: |
| Now- what other Pentax lenses can I look for numbers that I never noticed before! |
Check your 135/3.5. If the number is "43540," then this is an earlier "type I" lens with a 5 element, 4 group formula. If the number is "43541," then this is the newer 4 element, 4 group "type II" lens.
You could also try with your 135/2.5: the "type I" (part number 43802) has a 5 element/4 group formula, while the "type II" (part number 43812) has a 6 element/6 group formula and is a much better lens.
| Brian wrote: |
| Thankyou for this information. |
You're welcome. It's an honor to be of some help to the Brian S. of RFF fame
Cheers!
Abbazz
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Il n'y a rien dans le monde qui n'ait son moment decisif, et le chef-d'oeuvre de la bonne conduite est de connaitre et de prendre ce moment. - Cardinal de Retz
The 6x9 Photography Online Resource:
http://artbig.com/ |
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estudleon
Joined: 15 May 2008
Posts: 3754
Location: Argentina
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| Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 9:59 pm Post subject: |
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estudleon wrote:
| Abbazz wrote: |
| Brian wrote: |
| Does anyone have the serial number range of the 8-element lens? |
I don't, but the part number is engraved under the auto/manual switch.
| Brian wrote: |
| Does it also use Thorium glass? |
No idea but I would guess not.
| Brian wrote: |
| I've got a hot-glass 50/1.4 that I let sit in front of a UV light for a few days to tame the yellowed glass. It's a great performer. With the Thorium glass, it's hard to see why anyone would go to an 8-element design. |
Another quote from G. van Oosten's book: "This lens initially was comprised of 8 elements. It was followed by a newly designed lens that yielded a better sharpness and a higher image contrast than its predecessor. The new lens has a seven element construction instead of eight".
It would make sense to me that the secret weapon that allowed Asahi Optical Co. to manufacture a better lens with less elements was the new thoriated glass.
Cheers!
Abbazz |
Similar question was about the first and nexts versions of the summicron M 35/2.
Leica said that the newest, with less elements was better, the users and colectors said that the fist was better.
Who knows the true? Both were excelents.
can we say the same here? Rino.
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Alpa 10 D - kern macro Switar 1,9/50 -black, Kilffit apochromat 2/100.
Asahi pentax spotmatic super takumar 1,4/50
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Leica R3 electronic summicron 2/50 elmarit 2,8/35
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Nikkormat FTn 1,4/50, 2,8/135
Fujica ST 801, 605, 705n. 3,5/19, 1,4/50, 1,8/55, 4/85, 3,5/135.
Praktica MTL 5 and a lot of M42 lenses.
Voigtlander. Bessamatic m, bessamatix de luxe, bessamatic cs, ultramatic and ultramatic cs.
Skoparex 3,5/35, skopagon 2/40, skopar 2,8/50, skopar X 2,8/50, super lanthar (out of catalogue) 2,8/50, dinarex 3,4/90, dinarex 4,8/100, super dinarex 4/135, super dinarex 4/200, zoomar 2,8/36-83, portrait lens 0, 1 and 2. Curtagon 4/28 and 2,8/35
Canon AV1, 1,8/50
Rolleiflex SL35 and SL35 E. 2,8/35 angulon, 2,8/35 distagon, 1,4/55 rolleinar, 1,8/50 planar, 4/135 tessar, 2,8/135 rolleinar, x2 rollei, M42 to rollei adap.
Etc.
RF
Yashica Minister III
Voightlander Vito, vitomatic I, Vito C, etc.
Leica M. M2, M3 (d.s.) and M4. Schenider 3,4/21, 2/35 summaron 2,8/35 (with eyes). Summicron 2/35 (8 elements with eyes), 2/35 chrome, 2/35 black, 1,4/35 pre asph and aspheric - old -, 2/40 summicron, 2,8/50 elmar, 2/50 7 elements, 2/50 DR, 2/50 - minolta version, 1,4/50 summilux 1966 version, 1,4/75 summilux, 2/90 large version, 2/90 reduced version of 1987, 2,8/90 elmarit large version, 4/135 elmar. |
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