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Got me a Helios 44-2, and some questions for what's next!
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
hinnerker wrote:
Dogtag wrote:
...

'As new' indicates a lens that is as good as new or with very little use and wear. Any thing less means it should be sold as 'in good condition' or lower. And when you have pictures with the advertisement and you receive a scratched and bangd-up lens, that's not 'as new'. And oil on the aperture, none of my (Russian) lenses have oil on their aperture blades and there's nothing more annoying then sticky aperture blades. And it might me normal, but a lens 'as new' should be without oil on the aperture.
And I'm not talking about mere cosmetic issues. If your glass has a lot of cleaning marks you get a very soft picture.
Again this has nothing to to with the state of the lens but more with the attitude of the sellers. they mark everything: like new. Don't settle for less, if they say its as new and its worn out more then it should. Get a complete refund.

Stop sticking up for the sellers most of them have loads of lenses and don't care if you buy a paperweight, most sellers use the good parts for high price units and sell the lenses with the worst parts at a lower price with the same 'as new' tag.
'As new' means this Click here to see on Ebay


Thats what you awaiting not more. This 44-2 is an old lens. You cant find no "new and unused lens".
The Helios 44-2 lens is one of the cheapest lenses, mot of the time sell with the soviet Zenit - E filmcam... in large quantities.

None of the Helios 44-2 i did see was completely free of oil on aperture blades. Also not a Jupiter 3.5/135mm A or AM...
Tair 11 2.8/135 the same

As long as the lenses do have preset aperture, its absolutely no need to be worry about that, because you close aperture by hand and not with a spring mechanic ! This oil on the aperture blade is normal for lots of copys..

Go for russian lens - discussion on this thread... for the expiriences other have made.

http://forum.mflenses.com/collecting-stories-of-bad-experiences-with-russian-lenses-t62594.html

You can find Helios 44-2 on ZENIT E cams, in packages together with an TAIR 3 Photosniper and all this for cheap.

This simple copy of the old biotar design goes all the time for peanuts...

IMHO the TO is new to mf lenses and did have pay to much for the copy and now its angry about not finding a "new one"... but there are no "new ones" on the market.... and simply this discussion is theoretical and covers the fact that he should simply has pay
apprentice's due instead of talking and discussing expensiv reclamations for a 15$ lens.

Seemed that is more a theoretical discussion about who is right and who is wrong because of some marks on barrel.. Very Happy


You're missing the point here, I have alot of old lenses so you really don't have to point out what the look like. BUT when an ebay seller advertises with "as new", he should e able to provide it. And he can't. I understand what i am buying but the topicstarter did not. I avoid the "as new" sellers and concentrate on the seller with the "picture shows as is", talk is cheap. Don't say something is as new. Don't mind a scratch here and there but not on the glass. And there do exsist copies of old 60's lenses as new but they fetch a far higher price.


PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 11:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Dogtag wrote:
...

You're missing the point here, I have alot of old lenses so you really don't have to point out what the look like. BUT when an ebay seller advertises with "as new", he should e able to provide it. And he can't.


Congrats for your lot of old lenses. I have had about 300 or 400 different lenses during the last years. Dont know, whats the point about it.

So what should happen with the "deal" in your opinion?

Fully refund because lens does not meet your personal definition of a "as new" looking lens ?

Sorry, but IMHO its the best way to solve this situation of different views not with discussing definitions, crying for refund, create further costs, work and so on.

On the shown lens i cant see something, what should be wrong with her... again... lots of russian lenses do have problems with oil on the aperture blades..

if you dont believe that... again read this article about the experiences others do have with oil on the blades on russian lenses.
http://forum.mflenses.com/collecting-stories-of-bad-experiences-with-russian-lenses-t62594.html


Mostly they are preset apertures in russian lenses, so oil on aperture blades arent that "big" thing, because you close aperture by hand in conjunction with a directly coupled aperture close ring to your defined preset value.. different from normal apertures in japanese Lenses, where mostly a spring and a lever overtake that function.

...
Quote:

I understand what i am buying but the topicstarter did not. I avoid the "as new" sellers and concentrate on the seller with the "picture shows as is", talk is cheap. Don't say something is as new. Don't mind a scratch here and there but not on the glass. And there do exsist copies of old 60's lenses as new but they fetch a far higher price.


I know, i have got Biotar 75/1.5, Primoplan 75/1.9, Pancolar 55/1.4 and lots more of exoting and expensive lenses...

Also if you have a good copy from one of the namend lenses above or do a search for one of them, maybe in mint state, mostly after the buy you have to overhole the lens, often focusring is stiff/stuck, because of dryed grease or Lubricant and other reasons. Thats normal and everyone who wants to buy old manual lenses should be adding an "overhole fee" into his calculation if he bids or buy an old lens.

Otherwise if you really wants a "as new" lens, you have to clear if the seller does overhole/CLA the lens or did you really mean, a seller who sells a lot of 6 or more of the same lenses did an invest of the fees to CLA this lot of lenses, so that they meet your definition of whats new?


So you will never get an old lens "new"... you can only say "cosmetical as new", small signs of use are normal and not the point.

Finally all definitions of whats "new" when talking about old lenses depending on whats your opinion and often thats not what the seller think what looks like new.

Nevertheless... its a discussion about an overpriced Helios, not more.
Best IMHO would be, to deal out a reduction in price... and the seller is willing to take lens back and give fully refund.
So he will also be willing to reduce price to an average price, if the lens status isnt ok.

No need to damn a seller...


PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 1:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
hinnerker wrote:

Sorry, but sometimes i ask myself, what people think they buy if they go for old lenses ?

The buyer cant read and understand, that "as new" simply means not new.. but in good condition. Some signs of transport or little use are normal.

Sorry, but clearly you're the one who cannot read. The ad says "Glass on lenses is clean, no fungus, lens in NEW condition." So the buyer is to expect that the lens is in the exact same condition as if bought new. eBay expects the same and will intervene to ensure a full refund if the seller were to refuse to provide it... you're not allowed to lie about product descriptions on eBay.

hinnerker wrote:
Thats what you awaiting not more. This 44-2 is an old lens. You cant find no "new and unused lens".

I've found plenty of them. That's what unused stock is.

hinnerker wrote:
As long as the lenses do have preset aperture, its absolutely no need to be worry about that, because you close aperture by hand and not with a spring mechanic ! This oil on the aperture blade is normal for lots of copys.

It doesn't matter if it's normal or not; it was advertised as not being there. If it was delivered different than it was advertised, then it's a fraudulent posting. And you're just trolling.


PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 2:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Last time I got conned on eBay the response I got from eBay's customer service was that I should resell it because if someone was willing to pay for it once (me, the sucker) then other people would pay the same amount.


PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
hinnerker wrote:

Finally all definitions of whats "new" when talking about old lenses depending on whats your opinion and often thats not what the seller think what looks like new.


I'm sorry you still don't get the point, 'As new' has no personal definition.... THAT'S the point, the seller tells you any thing as long as you buy. And most (like you) won't say a word, thats what he's hoping for. They even beg (BEG) for a positive rating even if the are selling crap and you caught them... If you buy a 'an new' 1961 Ferrari 250 GT SWB Berlinetta, it means a car that's as good or better then when it left the factory. Everything other then perfect, is not 'as new'. And if its restored it sells for less then 100% authentic.
Or do you expect a car full with marks from tarmac?


hinnerker wrote:

Congrats for your lot of old lenses. I have had about 300 or 400 different lenses during the last years. Dont know, whats the point about it.

Painfully clear: you don't get the point.

hinnerker wrote:

I know, i have got Biotar 75/1.5, Primoplan 75/1.9, Pancolar 55/1.4 and lots more of exoting and expensive lenses...

Yes... you are talking about expensive and exotic lenses (meaning rare to find), this is a Helios and there are version that show 'as new' quality (because the come in the original (cardboard+plastic) case and have never been used, even with papers.)

hinnerker wrote:

On the shown lens i cant see something, what should be wrong with her... again... lots of russian lenses do have problems with oil on the aperture blades..

Even in your own words "lots of russian lenses" YES lots of them do have oil, some don't and even fewer might be cosmetically and internally without scratches (or any thing other wrong).. thats what we call 'AS NEW".


hinnerker wrote:

Also if you have a good copy from one of the namend lenses above or do a search for one of them, maybe in mint state, mostly after the buy you have to overhole the lens, often focusring is stiff/stuck, because of dryed grease or Lubricant and other reasons. Thats normal and everyone who wants to buy old manual lenses should be adding an "overhole fee" into his calculation if he bids or buy an old lens.

Sorry, such a load of crap, AS NEW means that that does not apply or the seller would have said: Good condition but with stiff focus or stuck blades (that's what a good seller would do/should have done.)

hinnerker wrote:

No need to damn a seller...

No, you do need to curse on these guys because people like you keep those guys in business. I show NO mercy, they know there selling crap while tell you it's AS NEW. We are not talking about respectable shop owners making a mistake here. Show mercy for guys making a mistake not the scum of ebay. If he lived next door, I would show up and stick the lens where the sun doesn't shine.

hinnerker wrote:

So you will never get an old lens "new"... you can only say "cosmetical as new", small signs of use are normal and not the point.

AS new is AS NEW Cosmetically and internally OR HE SHOULD TELL ANY FLAWS
GENERAL DEFINITION of AS NEW:
NO significant scratches on the housing,
NO scratches or cleaning marks on the glass. With original caps and/or case.
NO tampering with mechanics unless serviced by someone knowledgeable.

I don't care what YOU think he should expect, he should expect WHAT'S ADVERTISED. Because what the seller advertised IS THE ONLY INFORMATION YOU GET WHEN CONSIDERING A PURCHASE. And if you read all the given info again you see the seller knew what he was doing.

The buyer should accept nothing less then a complete refund.

You might be a swell guy but if you're buying 300/400 lenses a year, in this fashion I can only conclude that you love to throw money away.

Just a Ferrari
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