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Theharbingerr
Joined: 05 Nov 2013 Posts: 7
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Posted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 7:39 am Post subject: |
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Theharbingerr wrote:
Oldhand wrote: |
Theharbingerr wrote: |
eeec wrote: |
That seller has a rather shifty reputation... his stuff is usually not as advertised, but it doesn't seem to affect his rating that much. He's been known to interchange lens parts on occasion if angry buyers on various forums are to be believed. I've had great lenses from him and also had disasters like yours. My impression is that he comes into lots of stock and really doesn't know much about what he's selling so claims that everything is "new" or "like new, unused stock." 80% of the time, the lens is well-used and certainly not looking for its first owner.
You could either return it or expect a significant partial-refund.
If you end up keeping it, what's good with the Helios is that it is very easy to take apart and service yourself. Most Russian lens's major components screw apart easily (or at most with a spanner). The glass cleans up nice and the oil on the aperture blades is easily swabbed off with some rubbing alcohol. It's not uncommon for the old Russian lenses to get oily blades, but I've never known them seize up and stop working if left as-is (you'd just have to be aware of the reflections the oil creates). I presume this is because of the preset aperture's design. |
Thank you for informing me! I should have researched more about him to begin with. I looked at the page's picture, and it barely shows the first letter of the serial number. In it, the first number is 8. Mine starts with a 7.
I'm wary about servicing it myself, considering I know little about opening them up to begin with. Depending on the refund amount, I am considering seeing any lens service place here in Calgary. |
Refund should be total if he has sent the wrong lens. If you have to return it - he pays return postage also under Ebay rules for open disputes AFAIK.
Talk to him first.
Sellers like their buyers to be happy and he has publicly said so on the listing.
99% of the time these things can be sorted out simply by contacting the seller.
OH |
Thanks! This is what he said:
"Hello Elias.
This lenses was made many years ago, can't be brand new. But, i've sent You
lens in excellent condition.
I'm very sorry, You're not satisfied. Anyway, You can return it for full refund.
Please, let me know Your decision.
Mika"
It will cost me $11 to ship it (but a refund means he pays for return, no?). I paid $60 for it (35 GPB). Is its condition really worth the price? Or would I end up doing better for a Helios purchase with the same quality but for a cheaper price. What do you all think I should do? Just stick with it or no?
EDIT: quick look on eBay gives one that actually says there is a bit of internal dust AND oil on blades, but sells for half the price of this.. |
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Oldhand
Joined: 01 Apr 2013 Posts: 6006 Location: Mid North Coast NSW - Australia
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Posted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 7:50 am Post subject: |
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Oldhand wrote:
Yes, return postage should be included in a refund - I know, as a seller, I have had to pay postage on one occasion, but it was just over a year ago. I don't think this has changed.
Helios 44-2 should be available in good condition for between 20-30 GBP if you look around and as Attila says check out the seller as well.
Take some images with the lens. I would.
If they are spectacular, you might like to keep it in spite of its scratches.
If not you can return it.
OH |
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Dogtag
Joined: 27 Jul 2013 Posts: 166 Location: Holland del norte
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Posted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 8:29 am Post subject: |
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Dogtag wrote:
No there not huge Their automaticly resized. But don't accept his offer. He needs to refund your lens and pay for shipping, because he lied/photoshopt I had this before and told them I would send the lens back but it costs more then the lens itself. (True). He wanted to pay half, I still not agreed and mention I would open up a ebay claim and leave bad feedback. The seller returned all my money and I still have this lens. (he asked me to give him a positive rating on Ebay, I gave him a polite FU) DON'T SETTLE FOR: ITS AN OLD LENS .. He said its like new, but it isn't. Old lenses could be as new. If it has dust and oil on the blades he should have mentioned it.
And one more thing your lens doesn't look as bad as mine did, but don't show appreciation to scamming ebay seller by compromising. There are many MANY USSR (Russians and former member states) seller that just try to scam you with garbage and act all surprised. They know exactly what you mean.
Oldhand wrote: |
As Renato has suggested, I also think it is not the same lens.
Could be a simple mistake - wrong lens packed and mailed - he must sell dozens of them.
Contact him and work it out.
Here is his banner ad from the sale:
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I'm sorry, you're really naive to think he really means it. This banner has the same value as a instruction manual from your microwave. : Don't put your pets and kids in it to dry.
It's no mistake, I just might be a bit cynical about Russian dealers But sadly most of them are scum. _________________ Konica AR fan
Konica AR, 135/2.5 135/3.2 135/3.5 100/2.8 85/1.8 55/3.5-macro 57/1.2 57/1.4 50/1.4 52/1.8 50/1.7(3x) 40/1.8 35/2.8 35/2 28/1.8 24/2.8
Missing UC 15mm and 21mm |
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enzodm
Joined: 11 Sep 2010 Posts: 350 Location: Italy
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Posted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 2:29 pm Post subject: Re: Got me a Helios 44-2, and some questions for what's next |
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enzodm wrote:
Theharbingerr wrote: |
I am waiting on the adapter (no optical glass) to use on my D600, and I'm seeking old lenses to expand my collection, if you have any suggestions! I'm looking for something more for portraiture this time. |
On a Nikon you have less choices than on the other dSLRs. By the way, this lens with a glassless adapter will not focus at infinity, so you will use it for macro/closeup only.
However, you can use old Nikon lenses (with some limitation I do not know exactly), those with T/T2/Adaptall mounts, those made for medium format cameras, enlarger lenses>70mm if you have a focusing helicoid or bellows. For portraits, a cheap old Nikon lens is the 100/2.8 E Series. _________________
Canon 60D, Tamron 17-50VC, Canon 55-250IS, Sigma 50-150/2.8 plus:
Wide: Mir 20/3.5, Kenlock 24/2.8, Tamron 28/2.5, Yashikor 35/2.8, Mir 37/2.8
Fifties: Voigtländer Color Ultron 50/1.8, Pentacon 50/1.8, Zenitar 50/1.9, Leica Summicron 50/2, CZJ Pancolar 50/2, CZJ Tessar 50/2.8, Industar 50/3.5 , Rikenon 55/1.4, Petri 55/1.8, Helios 58/2
In the middle: Cyclop 85/1.5, Nikon 100/2.8
135s: Tamron 135/2.5, CZJ Sonnar 135/3.5, Jupiter 135/3.5, CZJ Triotar 135/4, Tamron Twin Tele 135-225
Tele: Soligor 200/2.8, Pentax Super Takumar 200/4, Hanimex 400/6.3, Makinon 500/8
Various: Schneider-Kreuznach Componar 135/4.5, Tominon 105/4.5, Vest Pocket Kodak meniscus, Wray Supar 2"/4.5
Sony Nex 6 plus:
Industar 69 28/2.8, Fujian 35/1.7, Rokkor 50/1.4, Jupiter 50/2, Cosmicar 50/2.8, Industar-22 50/3.5, Leitz Elmar 90/4, Canon Serenar 100/4
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BurstMox
Joined: 04 Dec 2011 Posts: 1998 Location: France
Expire: 2016-08-02
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Posted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 8:37 pm Post subject: |
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BurstMox wrote:
Quote: |
Thank you for informing me! I should have researched more about him to begin with. I looked at the page's picture, and it barely shows the first letter of the serial number. In it, the first number is 8. Mine starts with a 7.
I'm wary about servicing it myself, considering I know little about opening them up to begin with. Depending on the refund amount, I am considering seeing any lens service place here in Calgary. |
The lens on the image is naturely not the one he send, because of this :
You can't have more than 10 lens with same serial (even not 2) naturely. So, he just show a sample photo, and pick in his stock a random lens. _________________ Pierre
sovietlenses.fr
Soviet lenses Facebook group |
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Laurentiu Cristofor
Joined: 23 Oct 2010 Posts: 524 Location: WA, USA
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Posted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 11:21 pm Post subject: |
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Laurentiu Cristofor wrote:
Dogtag wrote: |
Like new does not mean with grease on the aperture blades and scratched elements. |
It should not mean scratched body/glass, but I would expect grease on the aperture blades. These are manual aperture lenses and Soviet ones are known to have their aperture blades oiled. Oily aperture blades are clearly an issue only with auto aperture lenses. _________________ http://www.ipernity.com/home/2419272
https://laurphoto.blogspot.com/ |
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lukas.marica
Joined: 06 Nov 2013 Posts: 1
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Posted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 8:00 am Post subject: |
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lukas.marica wrote:
BurstMox wrote: |
The lens on the image is naturely not the one he send, because of this :
...
You can't have more than 10 lens with same serial (even not 2) naturely. So, he just show a sample photo, and pick in his stock a random lens. |
wow, didn't actually realize this, when i was buying lenses for me... good to know (but i think, that it may be at least mentioned in description for items like this, that the images are illustrational only, not what you see is what you get)... fortunately, I was looking for items with S/N specified anyways, so I didn't even have to deal with things like this |
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Oldhand
Joined: 01 Apr 2013 Posts: 6006 Location: Mid North Coast NSW - Australia
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Posted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 8:04 am Post subject: |
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Oldhand wrote:
As Pierre has said,
It is something of a minefield when buying one of a multiple lot unless they are all brand new.
Naturally the seller will illustrate the best of them in the listing.
Caveat emptor indeed.
OH |
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philslizzy
Joined: 07 Aug 2012 Posts: 4747 Location: Cheshire, England
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Posted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 10:12 am Post subject: |
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philslizzy wrote:
Regards your position on refunds and postage refunds, ebay uses various countries' distance selling regulations. If your country does not require the seller to refund return postage then you must pay it.
I wish you luck. But as others have said old lenses like the Russians will or may have oil on the blades. This doesnt affect anything. The M44/2 can be opened by hand with a firm twisting of the front of the barrel. Dab the blades with a cotton bud dampened with lighter fuel, activate them a bit then dry off what liquid you can see. Leave the front element off overnight before screwing it back on. Dab off any remainiing oily liquid before reassembly. No problem.
Phil _________________ Hero in the 'messin-with-cameras-for-the-hell-of-it department'. Official. |
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hinnerker
Joined: 17 Aug 2009 Posts: 929 Location: Germany near Kiel
Expire: 2015-08-09
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Posted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 11:42 am Post subject: |
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hinnerker wrote:
Sorry, but sometimes i ask myself, what people think they buy if they go for old lenses ?
Oil on blades after many Years are nearly normal on russian lenses.. that was discussed on many forums all over the world, an its a fact.
The buyer cant read and understand, that "as new" simply means not new.. but in good condition. Some signs of transport or little use are normal.
And finally, whats the seller wants to do with a lens?
Taking pictures or win an exhibition of who has the cleanest lens?
Go out and take pictures with the lens and then decide if there are faults or abberations which cause to say, the lens IQ ! is not as new.
If the lens is faulty working/decentered or did have bad IQ, send the lens back and take the full refund.
Count out what time and effort you spent in discussing this cosmetical missatisfaction, the work to package the lens again, bring it to your parcel service, the extra costs for you and or the seller... and thats for cosmetical "peanuts"..
Deal with him for a little refund if you mean, that the marks are so important ...
A lens is for taking pictures, especially an one of a million lens like this... not for bring this lens to an exhibition.. _________________ some light-painting lens stuff..
... and an EOS 5D MKII
www.digicamclub.de |
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Dogtag
Joined: 27 Jul 2013 Posts: 166 Location: Holland del norte
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Posted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 1:23 pm Post subject: |
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Dogtag wrote:
hinnerker wrote: |
Sorry, but sometimes i ask myself, what people think they buy if they go for old lenses ?
Oil on blades after many Years are nearly normal on russian lenses.. that was discussed on many forums all over the world, an its a fact.
The buyer cant read and understand, that "as new" simply means not new.. but in good condition. Some signs of transport or little use are normal.
And finally, whats the seller wants to do with a lens?
Taking pictures or win an exhibition of who has the cleanest lens?
Go out and take pictures with the lens and then decide if there are faults or abberations which cause to say, the lens IQ ! is not as new.
If the lens is faulty working/decentered or did have bad IQ, send the lens back and take the full refund.
Count out what time and effort you spent in discussing this cosmetical missatisfaction, the work to package the lens again, bring it to your parcel service, the extra costs for you and or the seller... and thats for cosmetical "peanuts"..
Deal with him for a little refund if you mean, that the marks are so important ...
A lens is for taking pictures, especially an one of a million lens like this... not for bring this lens to an exhibition.. |
'As new' indicates a lens that is as good as new or with very little use and wear. Any thing less means it should be sold as 'in good condition' or lower. And when you have pictures with the advertisement and you receive a scratched and bangd-up lens, that's not 'as new'. And oil on the aperture, none of my (Russian) lenses have oil on their aperture blades and there's nothing more annoying then sticky aperture blades. And it might me normal, but a lens 'as new' should be without oil on the aperture.
And I'm not talking about mere cosmetic issues. If your glass has a lot of cleaning marks you get a very soft picture.
Again this has nothing to to with the state of the lens but more with the attitude of the sellers. they mark everything: like new. Don't settle for less, if they say its as new and its worn out more then it should. Get a complete refund.
Stop sticking up for the sellers most of them have loads of lenses and don't care if you buy a paperweight, most sellers use the good parts for high price units and sell the lenses with the worst parts at a lower price with the same 'as new' tag.
'As new' means this Click here to see on Ebay _________________ Konica AR fan
Konica AR, 135/2.5 135/3.2 135/3.5 100/2.8 85/1.8 55/3.5-macro 57/1.2 57/1.4 50/1.4 52/1.8 50/1.7(3x) 40/1.8 35/2.8 35/2 28/1.8 24/2.8
Missing UC 15mm and 21mm |
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hinnerker
Joined: 17 Aug 2009 Posts: 929 Location: Germany near Kiel
Expire: 2015-08-09
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Posted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 3:37 pm Post subject: |
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hinnerker wrote:
Dogtag wrote: |
...
'As new' indicates a lens that is as good as new or with very little use and wear. Any thing less means it should be sold as 'in good condition' or lower. And when you have pictures with the advertisement and you receive a scratched and bangd-up lens, that's not 'as new'. And oil on the aperture, none of my (Russian) lenses have oil on their aperture blades and there's nothing more annoying then sticky aperture blades. And it might me normal, but a lens 'as new' should be without oil on the aperture.
And I'm not talking about mere cosmetic issues. If your glass has a lot of cleaning marks you get a very soft picture.
Again this has nothing to to with the state of the lens but more with the attitude of the sellers. they mark everything: like new. Don't settle for less, if they say its as new and its worn out more then it should. Get a complete refund.
Stop sticking up for the sellers most of them have loads of lenses and don't care if you buy a paperweight, most sellers use the good parts for high price units and sell the lenses with the worst parts at a lower price with the same 'as new' tag.
'As new' means this Click here to see on Ebay |
Thats what you awaiting not more. This 44-2 is an old lens. You cant find no "new and unused lens".
The Helios 44-2 lens is one of the cheapest lenses, mot of the time sell with the soviet Zenit - E filmcam... in large quantities.
None of the Helios 44-2 i did see was completely free of oil on aperture blades. Also not a Jupiter 3.5/135mm A or AM...
Tair 11 2.8/135 the same
As long as the lenses do have preset aperture, its absolutely no need to be worry about that, because you close aperture by hand and not with a spring mechanic ! This oil on the aperture blade is normal for lots of copys..
Go for russian lens - discussion on this thread... for the expiriences other have made.
http://forum.mflenses.com/collecting-stories-of-bad-experiences-with-russian-lenses-t62594.html
You can find Helios 44-2 on ZENIT E cams, in packages together with an TAIR 3 Photosniper and all this for cheap.
This simple copy of the old biotar design goes all the time for peanuts...
IMHO the TO is new to mf lenses and did have pay to much for the copy and now its angry about not finding a "new one"... but there are no "new ones" on the market.... and simply this discussion is theoretical and covers the fact that he should simply has pay
apprentice's due instead of talking and discussing expensiv reclamations for a 15$ lens.
Seemed that is more a theoretical discussion about who is right and who is wrong because of some marks on barrel.. _________________ some light-painting lens stuff..
... and an EOS 5D MKII
www.digicamclub.de |
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Theharbingerr
Joined: 05 Nov 2013 Posts: 7
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Posted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 3:56 pm Post subject: |
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Theharbingerr wrote:
BurstMox wrote: |
Quote: |
Thank you for informing me! I should have researched more about him to begin with. I looked at the page's picture, and it barely shows the first letter of the serial number. In it, the first number is 8. Mine starts with a 7.
I'm wary about servicing it myself, considering I know little about opening them up to begin with. Depending on the refund amount, I am considering seeing any lens service place here in Calgary. |
The lens on the image is naturely not the one he send, because of this :
You can't have more than 10 lens with same serial (even not 2) naturely. So, he just show a sample photo, and pick in his stock a random lens. |
Shoulda seen that. Damn. I rarely buy used (so eBay in general), so I'm not aware of the signs! |
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Theharbingerr
Joined: 05 Nov 2013 Posts: 7
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Posted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 4:14 pm Post subject: |
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Theharbingerr wrote:
hinnerker wrote: |
Sorry, but sometimes i ask myself, what people think they buy if they go for old lenses ?
Oil on blades after many Years are nearly normal on russian lenses.. that was discussed on many forums all over the world, an its a fact.
The buyer cant read and understand, that "as new" simply means not new.. but in good condition. Some signs of transport or little use are normal.
And finally, whats the seller wants to do with a lens?
Taking pictures or win an exhibition of who has the cleanest lens?
Go out and take pictures with the lens and then decide if there are faults or abberations which cause to say, the lens IQ ! is not as new.
If the lens is faulty working/decentered or did have bad IQ, send the lens back and take the full refund.
Count out what time and effort you spent in discussing this cosmetical missatisfaction, the work to package the lens again, bring it to your parcel service, the extra costs for you and or the seller... and thats for cosmetical "peanuts"..
Deal with him for a little refund if you mean, that the marks are so important ...
A lens is for taking pictures, especially an one of a million lens like this... not for bring this lens to an exhibition.. |
Like I mentioned, I am new to manual lenses, and so lack the experience. I have a Nikkor 50mm f/1.4 manual and there's no oil. That's what I would expect from an old lens because that is all I know.
Like another poster replied, the ad does NOT say "as new," but says New. I read over the whole thing multiple times to avoid the exact mistake that happened.
I also like to have undamaged lenses, but I can see that is not something I will have with old mf lenses. And yes, I will be taking pictures to test the IQ of it when my adapter arrives, and see if a refund is worth the hassle. That's actually my plan. Since I am waiting for an adapter, I don't lose much time and effort.
I would like to point out that I am fine with scratches on the body, but was mislead by the ad. That is why I am seeking some help from people that know better than me.
hinnerker wrote: |
Dogtag wrote: |
...
'As new' indicates a lens that is as good as new or with very little use and wear. Any thing less means it should be sold as 'in good condition' or lower. And when you have pictures with the advertisement and you receive a scratched and bangd-up lens, that's not 'as new'. And oil on the aperture, none of my (Russian) lenses have oil on their aperture blades and there's nothing more annoying then sticky aperture blades. And it might me normal, but a lens 'as new' should be without oil on the aperture.
And I'm not talking about mere cosmetic issues. If your glass has a lot of cleaning marks you get a very soft picture.
Again this has nothing to to with the state of the lens but more with the attitude of the sellers. they mark everything: like new. Don't settle for less, if they say its as new and its worn out more then it should. Get a complete refund.
Stop sticking up for the sellers most of them have loads of lenses and don't care if you buy a paperweight, most sellers use the good parts for high price units and sell the lenses with the worst parts at a lower price with the same 'as new' tag.
'As new' means this Click here to see on Ebay |
Thats what you awaiting not more. This 44-2 is an old lens. You cant find no "new and unused lens".
The Helios 44-2 lens is one of the cheapest lenses, mot of the time sell with the soviet Zenit - E filmcam... in large quantities.
None of the Helios 44-2 i did see was completely free of oil on aperture blades. Also not a Jupiter 3.5/135mm A or AM...
Tair 11 2.8/135 the same
As long as the lenses do have preset aperture, its absolutely no need to be worry about that, because you close aperture by hand and not with a spring mechanic ! This oil on the aperture blade is normal for lots of copys..
Go for russian lens - discussion on this thread... for the expiriences other have made.
http://forum.mflenses.com/collecting-stories-of-bad-experiences-with-russian-lenses-t62594.html
You can find Helios 44-2 on ZENIT E cams, in packages together with an TAIR 3 Photosniper and all this for cheap.
This simple copy of the old biotar design goes all the time for peanuts...
IMHO the TO is new to mf lenses and did have pay to much for the copy and now its angry about not finding a "new one"... but there are no "new ones" on the market.... and simply this discussion is theoretical and covers the fact that he should simply has pay
apprentice's due instead of talking and discussing expensiv reclamations for a 15$ lens.
Seemed that is more a theoretical discussion about who is right and who is wrong because of some marks on barrel.. |
I did take a brief look at that link, and these are stories I would like to avoid in the future. I need to watch out, because my money is not so easily acquired during university.
You're making false assumptions regarding my attitude about this. I am frustrated about paying extra for what is similar to cheaper priced one, not for my inability to find a new one. It is naive of me to expect a new, but it is also highly misleading to even provide the label to begin with. All other sellers will say it is in "good condition" and avoid new. Additionally, considering I paid $60-- which from what I've seen is higher than the average-- I would expect one not as used as what I got. At the moment, since I am lower on funds than I would like, I gather a nice advantage in returning it and buying one in a similar condition for less, and save $30-- half the price, whilst also declaring oil on the blades and scratched body. |
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hinnerker
Joined: 17 Aug 2009 Posts: 929 Location: Germany near Kiel
Expire: 2015-08-09
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Posted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 4:47 pm Post subject: |
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hinnerker wrote:
Theharbingerr wrote: |
Like I mentioned, I am new to manual lenses, and so lack the experience. I have a Nikkor 50mm f/1.4 manual and there's no oil. That's what I would expect from an old lens because that is all I know.
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Yes, not all lenses do have oil on the aperture blades.. like your clean Nikkor... mostly they are clean.
But its a good idea and a hint for future buys, to contact seller to verify blades are clean and the aperture snappy. Thats why you can ask questions to seller. Most of the sellers, especially if the sell lots of them doesnt take the time to verify each single lens of a lot.
Quote: |
I also like to have undamaged lenses, but I can see that is not something I will have with old mf lenses.
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Yes, thats a normal process, if things are used... they get marks. There are more people like me, which do have the opinion, that lenses with using marks are better as stored and unused lenses, sometimes because of there "bad" IQ...
Whats the reason for a lens to get lots of marks on barrel ?
For sure, that this lens was used often because of image quality... delivers fine results and so the photographer wants to use it very often.
The other way around sometimes "like new" lenses do have stiff focus rings, oil on aperture blades because of condensating grease ingredients etc.. wrong stored with not unloaded aperture springs and so on.. (happens on some CZJ lenses, the springs get tired)
This "oil on the blades" problem not only happens on cheap Helios lenses... i did have seen that on some expensiv Leica R and also on Zeiss Lenses. Canon FD highclass lenses sometimes do have same problems...
The best thing you can do with each kind of good lens... use them instead of store them over years.
And thats mean... the lens will get marks..
Quote: |
And yes, I will be taking pictures to test the IQ of it when my adapter arrives, and see if a refund is worth the hassle. That's actually my plan. Since I am waiting for an adapter, I don't lose much time and effort.
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IMHO thats a very good plan. Talk with the seller to get a partial refund to bring the price of the lens near to an average price.. if the lens delivers correct images and has no other faults.
This could be a "win/win"- situation instead of discussing and judging what a buyer did have read and whats his opinion, what a seller should do... most of sellers and buyers do have partial misunderstanding and knowledge about the things.
As i read, the seller is willing to fully refund... so it would be easy to get also a partial refund so that the Helios price you paid would reduce to an average marketprice..
Cheers
Henry _________________ some light-painting lens stuff..
... and an EOS 5D MKII
www.digicamclub.de |
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Dogtag
Joined: 27 Jul 2013 Posts: 166 Location: Holland del norte
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Posted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 10:17 pm Post subject: |
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Dogtag wrote:
hinnerker wrote: |
Dogtag wrote: |
...
'As new' indicates a lens that is as good as new or with very little use and wear. Any thing less means it should be sold as 'in good condition' or lower. And when you have pictures with the advertisement and you receive a scratched and bangd-up lens, that's not 'as new'. And oil on the aperture, none of my (Russian) lenses have oil on their aperture blades and there's nothing more annoying then sticky aperture blades. And it might me normal, but a lens 'as new' should be without oil on the aperture.
And I'm not talking about mere cosmetic issues. If your glass has a lot of cleaning marks you get a very soft picture.
Again this has nothing to to with the state of the lens but more with the attitude of the sellers. they mark everything: like new. Don't settle for less, if they say its as new and its worn out more then it should. Get a complete refund.
Stop sticking up for the sellers most of them have loads of lenses and don't care if you buy a paperweight, most sellers use the good parts for high price units and sell the lenses with the worst parts at a lower price with the same 'as new' tag.
'As new' means this Click here to see on Ebay |
Thats what you awaiting not more. This 44-2 is an old lens. You cant find no "new and unused lens".
The Helios 44-2 lens is one of the cheapest lenses, mot of the time sell with the soviet Zenit - E filmcam... in large quantities.
None of the Helios 44-2 i did see was completely free of oil on aperture blades. Also not a Jupiter 3.5/135mm A or AM...
Tair 11 2.8/135 the same
As long as the lenses do have preset aperture, its absolutely no need to be worry about that, because you close aperture by hand and not with a spring mechanic ! This oil on the aperture blade is normal for lots of copys..
Go for russian lens - discussion on this thread... for the expiriences other have made.
http://forum.mflenses.com/collecting-stories-of-bad-experiences-with-russian-lenses-t62594.html
You can find Helios 44-2 on ZENIT E cams, in packages together with an TAIR 3 Photosniper and all this for cheap.
This simple copy of the old biotar design goes all the time for peanuts...
IMHO the TO is new to mf lenses and did have pay to much for the copy and now its angry about not finding a "new one"... but there are no "new ones" on the market.... and simply this discussion is theoretical and covers the fact that he should simply has pay
apprentice's due instead of talking and discussing expensiv reclamations for a 15$ lens.
Seemed that is more a theoretical discussion about who is right and who is wrong because of some marks on barrel.. |
You're missing the point here, I have alot of old lenses so you really don't have to point out what the look like. BUT when an ebay seller advertises with "as new", he should e able to provide it. And he can't. I understand what i am buying but the topicstarter did not. I avoid the "as new" sellers and concentrate on the seller with the "picture shows as is", talk is cheap. Don't say something is as new. Don't mind a scratch here and there but not on the glass. And there do exsist copies of old 60's lenses as new but they fetch a far higher price. _________________ Konica AR fan
Konica AR, 135/2.5 135/3.2 135/3.5 100/2.8 85/1.8 55/3.5-macro 57/1.2 57/1.4 50/1.4 52/1.8 50/1.7(3x) 40/1.8 35/2.8 35/2 28/1.8 24/2.8
Missing UC 15mm and 21mm |
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hinnerker
Joined: 17 Aug 2009 Posts: 929 Location: Germany near Kiel
Expire: 2015-08-09
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Posted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 11:39 pm Post subject: |
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hinnerker wrote:
Dogtag wrote: |
...
You're missing the point here, I have alot of old lenses so you really don't have to point out what the look like. BUT when an ebay seller advertises with "as new", he should e able to provide it. And he can't.
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Congrats for your lot of old lenses. I have had about 300 or 400 different lenses during the last years. Dont know, whats the point about it.
So what should happen with the "deal" in your opinion?
Fully refund because lens does not meet your personal definition of a "as new" looking lens ?
Sorry, but IMHO its the best way to solve this situation of different views not with discussing definitions, crying for refund, create further costs, work and so on.
On the shown lens i cant see something, what should be wrong with her... again... lots of russian lenses do have problems with oil on the aperture blades..
if you dont believe that... again read this article about the experiences others do have with oil on the blades on russian lenses.
http://forum.mflenses.com/collecting-stories-of-bad-experiences-with-russian-lenses-t62594.html
Mostly they are preset apertures in russian lenses, so oil on aperture blades arent that "big" thing, because you close aperture by hand in conjunction with a directly coupled aperture close ring to your defined preset value.. different from normal apertures in japanese Lenses, where mostly a spring and a lever overtake that function.
...
Quote: |
I understand what i am buying but the topicstarter did not. I avoid the "as new" sellers and concentrate on the seller with the "picture shows as is", talk is cheap. Don't say something is as new. Don't mind a scratch here and there but not on the glass. And there do exsist copies of old 60's lenses as new but they fetch a far higher price. |
I know, i have got Biotar 75/1.5, Primoplan 75/1.9, Pancolar 55/1.4 and lots more of exoting and expensive lenses...
Also if you have a good copy from one of the namend lenses above or do a search for one of them, maybe in mint state, mostly after the buy you have to overhole the lens, often focusring is stiff/stuck, because of dryed grease or Lubricant and other reasons. Thats normal and everyone who wants to buy old manual lenses should be adding an "overhole fee" into his calculation if he bids or buy an old lens.
Otherwise if you really wants a "as new" lens, you have to clear if the seller does overhole/CLA the lens or did you really mean, a seller who sells a lot of 6 or more of the same lenses did an invest of the fees to CLA this lot of lenses, so that they meet your definition of whats new?
So you will never get an old lens "new"... you can only say "cosmetical as new", small signs of use are normal and not the point.
Finally all definitions of whats "new" when talking about old lenses depending on whats your opinion and often thats not what the seller think what looks like new.
Nevertheless... its a discussion about an overpriced Helios, not more.
Best IMHO would be, to deal out a reduction in price... and the seller is willing to take lens back and give fully refund.
So he will also be willing to reduce price to an average price, if the lens status isnt ok.
No need to damn a seller... _________________ some light-painting lens stuff..
... and an EOS 5D MKII
www.digicamclub.de |
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eeec
Joined: 16 Jun 2013 Posts: 45 Location: Edmonton, Canada
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Posted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 1:22 am Post subject: |
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eeec wrote:
hinnerker wrote: |
Sorry, but sometimes i ask myself, what people think they buy if they go for old lenses ?
The buyer cant read and understand, that "as new" simply means not new.. but in good condition. Some signs of transport or little use are normal. |
Sorry, but clearly you're the one who cannot read. The ad says "Glass on lenses is clean, no fungus, lens in NEW condition." So the buyer is to expect that the lens is in the exact same condition as if bought new. eBay expects the same and will intervene to ensure a full refund if the seller were to refuse to provide it... you're not allowed to lie about product descriptions on eBay.
hinnerker wrote: |
Thats what you awaiting not more. This 44-2 is an old lens. You cant find no "new and unused lens". |
I've found plenty of them. That's what unused stock is.
hinnerker wrote: |
As long as the lenses do have preset aperture, its absolutely no need to be worry about that, because you close aperture by hand and not with a spring mechanic ! This oil on the aperture blade is normal for lots of copys. |
It doesn't matter if it's normal or not; it was advertised as not being there. If it was delivered different than it was advertised, then it's a fraudulent posting. And you're just trolling. |
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Nikon1User
Joined: 10 Sep 2013 Posts: 71
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Posted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 2:18 am Post subject: |
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Nikon1User wrote:
Last time I got conned on eBay the response I got from eBay's customer service was that I should resell it because if someone was willing to pay for it once (me, the sucker) then other people would pay the same amount. |
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Dogtag
Joined: 27 Jul 2013 Posts: 166 Location: Holland del norte
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Posted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 5:41 pm Post subject: |
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Dogtag wrote:
hinnerker wrote: |
Finally all definitions of whats "new" when talking about old lenses depending on whats your opinion and often thats not what the seller think what looks like new.
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I'm sorry you still don't get the point, 'As new' has no personal definition.... THAT'S the point, the seller tells you any thing as long as you buy. And most (like you) won't say a word, thats what he's hoping for. They even beg (BEG) for a positive rating even if the are selling crap and you caught them... If you buy a 'an new' 1961 Ferrari 250 GT SWB Berlinetta, it means a car that's as good or better then when it left the factory. Everything other then perfect, is not 'as new'. And if its restored it sells for less then 100% authentic.
Or do you expect a car full with marks from tarmac?
hinnerker wrote: |
Congrats for your lot of old lenses. I have had about 300 or 400 different lenses during the last years. Dont know, whats the point about it. |
Painfully clear: you don't get the point.
hinnerker wrote: |
I know, i have got Biotar 75/1.5, Primoplan 75/1.9, Pancolar 55/1.4 and lots more of exoting and expensive lenses...
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Yes... you are talking about expensive and exotic lenses (meaning rare to find), this is a Helios and there are version that show 'as new' quality (because the come in the original (cardboard+plastic) case and have never been used, even with papers.)
hinnerker wrote: |
On the shown lens i cant see something, what should be wrong with her... again... lots of russian lenses do have problems with oil on the aperture blades.. |
Even in your own words "lots of russian lenses" YES lots of them do have oil, some don't and even fewer might be cosmetically and internally without scratches (or any thing other wrong).. thats what we call 'AS NEW".
hinnerker wrote: |
Also if you have a good copy from one of the namend lenses above or do a search for one of them, maybe in mint state, mostly after the buy you have to overhole the lens, often focusring is stiff/stuck, because of dryed grease or Lubricant and other reasons. Thats normal and everyone who wants to buy old manual lenses should be adding an "overhole fee" into his calculation if he bids or buy an old lens.
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Sorry, such a load of crap, AS NEW means that that does not apply or the seller would have said: Good condition but with stiff focus or stuck blades (that's what a good seller would do/should have done.)
hinnerker wrote: |
No need to damn a seller...
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No, you do need to curse on these guys because people like you keep those guys in business. I show NO mercy, they know there selling crap while tell you it's AS NEW. We are not talking about respectable shop owners making a mistake here. Show mercy for guys making a mistake not the scum of ebay. If he lived next door, I would show up and stick the lens where the sun doesn't shine.
hinnerker wrote: |
So you will never get an old lens "new"... you can only say "cosmetical as new", small signs of use are normal and not the point.
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AS new is AS NEW Cosmetically and internally OR HE SHOULD TELL ANY FLAWS
GENERAL DEFINITION of AS NEW:
NO significant scratches on the housing,
NO scratches or cleaning marks on the glass. With original caps and/or case.
NO tampering with mechanics unless serviced by someone knowledgeable.
I don't care what YOU think he should expect, he should expect WHAT'S ADVERTISED. Because what the seller advertised IS THE ONLY INFORMATION YOU GET WHEN CONSIDERING A PURCHASE. And if you read all the given info again you see the seller knew what he was doing.
The buyer should accept nothing less then a complete refund.
You might be a swell guy but if you're buying 300/400 lenses a year, in this fashion I can only conclude that you love to throw money away.
Just a Ferrari
_________________ Konica AR fan
Konica AR, 135/2.5 135/3.2 135/3.5 100/2.8 85/1.8 55/3.5-macro 57/1.2 57/1.4 50/1.4 52/1.8 50/1.7(3x) 40/1.8 35/2.8 35/2 28/1.8 24/2.8
Missing UC 15mm and 21mm |
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