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Leica M240
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 3:45 pm    Post subject: Leica M240 Reply with quote

Looks like a dreamcamera. Pricetag is high, but it is a Leica!
I would love to hear thoughts and experiences pairing this camera with old MF lenses. Wink


PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 2:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why a dream camera? Just wondering.

I find it very hard to form any kind of objective opinion on the quality of anything from Leica because it's so hard to find an unbiased opinion.

It will probably be less good than the reviews say because the people who review Leica stuff like Ken Rockwell and Steve Huff always evangelise about Leica and slate the competition.

Honestly, I think it's impossible to get a handle on how good or not a Leica is without using it yourself and forming your own opinion, I mean, would you really trust a Ken Rockwell review?


PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 2:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

iangreenhalgh1 wrote:

Honestly, I think it's impossible to get a handle on how good or not a Leica is without using it yourself and forming your own opinion, I mean, would you really trust a Ken Rockwell review?


NEVER!

A superb product brand, very often an achievement in technical terms, wrecked by the "glamour des nouveaux riches", as Mercedes-Benz also,

Renato


PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 2:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good points. Ironically it is often the most pedestrian of Leica's offerings that have the best performance. Case in point: the Leitz 50mm f/3.5 collapsible Elmar. One of the sharpest 50mm lenses ever.

I see the M240 as an inevitability, really. As for its price? Well, to Leica owners, it represents something of a bargain, seems to me, compared to the M9. No way would I -- or could I -- spend that sort of moolah for a camera. But there are quite a few folks around who have spent that much for Canons and Nikons, so it might just be a hit. Focus peaking with Leica M and R lenses is a smart move. That way they still don't need to worry about AF.


PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 8:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

...Then theres that expensive toy that only takes muddy grey pictures.


PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

philslizzy wrote:
...Then theres that expensive toy that only takes muddy grey pictures.


Laughing Laughing Laughing

You got to be joking. Have you ever tried the "Monochrom" yourself? The images are breathtaking!!

As to the "M" (it's not an "M240" BTW), it's an amazing camera. The price tag is way too high if you measure it with "normal" senses.

Fact is that any M-camera and any M-lens will give you a haptical feeling that hardly any other brand is capable to reproduce. The only lenses that convey the same level of solidity and pleasure are the new Zeiss series lenses.

And even the pro Nikon DSLRs - as rugged and solid as they feel - do not have that hard to describe combination of solidity and purity that an M-camera has. It's just another world. (But also in usability and features which cannot catch up with modern DSLRs of course! Wink)

If I had the money easily available, I would definitely buy the new "M"! But despite my fascination for it, it's my rationality that stops me from doing so.


PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 10:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

Fact is that any M-camera and any M-lens will give you a haptical feeling that hardly any other brand is capable to reproduce. The only lenses that convey the same level of solidity and pleasure are the new Zeiss series lenses.


This is a joke, right? There are countless superb lenses made of alloys and brass that are at least as good as what Leica sells in the 'haptical' department. In fact, the Leica R lenses I had to play with for a while had focus mechanisms that felt inferior to, for instance, my old 1960s Topcons. The Elmarit 2.8/135 reminded me of a Jupiter-11A, only less sturdily constructed and definitely not superior in IQ. A J11A in great shape can be had for less than 20ukp, whereas the Elmarit is 10-15x that much and imho, inferior.

Just illustrates my point, it's so hard to get an unbiased opinion on anything Leica.


PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For sure Leica makes great cameras but slightly aged on technology/design side.
I would expect more for that price tag.
Olympus/Epson VF-2 viewfinder was new 3 years ago.. and those buttons on the left side of the lcd are looking as a dashboard of a german car from 80-ies.


PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

heres a plea to members: dont hijack other peoples threads. really, its quite annoying to hear the same horsesh*t opinions over and over again whenever the name 'leica' is uttered.

the OP did NOT ask for anyones opinion of leica in general or opinions of the 240 by folks who havent even seen one. he asked for USERS opinions of how this camera works with mf lenses. not one of these comments addresses that in ANY way.

we all know, ad nauseum, who is skeptical of leica. great, youre entitled to your opinion. but youre NOT entitled to hijack every freaking thread that seeks actual user info about a leica product and turn it into another bullsh*t debate over leica as a company.

i know its hard for some, but try to have a little courtesy for what the OP WANTS to hear, not what YOU want to say...over and over again.
tony

ps i honestly think that the moderators should monitor and edit this particlar form of selfishness. there are many here who, regardless of our personal feelings about leica, actually want REAL information as opposed to the same people rendering informational threads unpleasant and unproductive with their selfish repeatitve opinions.


PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
Quote:

Fact is that any M-camera and any M-lens will give you a haptical feeling that hardly any other brand is capable to reproduce. The only lenses that convey the same level of solidity and pleasure are the new Zeiss series lenses.


This is a joke, right? There are countless superb lenses made of alloys and brass that are at least as good as what Leica sells in the 'haptical' department. In fact, the Leica R lenses I had to play with for a while had focus mechanisms that felt inferior to, for instance, my old 1960s Topcons. The Elmarit 2.8/135 reminded me of a Jupiter-11A, only less sturdily constructed and definitely not superior in IQ. A J11A in great shape can be had for less than 20ukp, whereas the Elmarit is 10-15x that much and imho, inferior.

Just illustrates my point, it's so hard to get an unbiased opinion on anything Leica.


I wasn't really sure what haptical meant until I looked it up Smile but having done so, I have to wonder just how Ian understands the word if he genuinely believes a Jupiter-11A is "more sturdily constructed" than a 135mm Elmarit-R. I'd have thought comparing the two mechanically was rather like putting a Sten gun alongside a Thompson sub-machine gun (see http://www.gotavapen.se/gota/artiklar/kpist/stengun.htm for some nice pictures) - they both do a similar job but there is rather a substantial difference in the way they're made ! With all due deference to Ian's experience, I have to disagree with him in this instance.


My opinion of the Elmarit is based on the one I used to own and the ones I handled over my time in photo retailing. All of them felt solidly smooth with "buttery" focusing, and the results on Kodachrome from mine had that "vibrance" typical of top class lenses. My opinion of the Jupiter 11-A is based - again - on the one I used to own and the ones I sold in the retail trade. The Jupiter11-A lenses all felt - and looked - as though they were a cheaply made effort with shiny iris blades and focusing mounts lubricated with a mixture of Vaseline (petroleum jelly) and grinding paste. Well, not all of them; some had grease so thick you couldn't even turn the focusing mount on a cold day. But they were sharp, no denying that, albeit without the "vibrance" found in the Elmarit-R. Great value though, and more "bang for your bucks" than the Elmarit Wink

I suppose the term "unbiased opinion" is something of an oxymoron (which, on looking it up, I find isn't actually a person of limited intelligence with an addiction to Oxo gravy [see http://www.oxo.co.uk/]). Opinions are "assessments based on grounds short of proof" according to my Concise Oxford Dictionary, which pretty much denies the prospect of all bias being excluded from them. It's true for me, that's for sure - !


PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 1:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rbelyell wrote:
heres a plea to members: dont hijack other peoples threads. really, its quite annoying to hear the same horsesh*t opinions over and over again whenever the name 'leica' is uttered.

the OP did NOT ask for anyones opinion of leica in general or opinions of the 240 by folks who havent even seen one. he asked for USERS opinions of how this camera works with mf lenses. not one of these comments addresses that in ANY way.

we all know, ad nauseum, who is skeptical of leica. great, youre entitled to your opinion. but youre NOT entitled to hijack every freaking thread that seeks actual user info about a leica product and turn it into another bullsh*t debate over leica as a company.

i know its hard for some, but try to have a little courtesy for what the OP WANTS to hear, not what YOU want to say...over and over again.
tony

ps i honestly think that the moderators should monitor and edit this particlar form of selfishness. there are many here who, regardless of our personal feelings about leica, actually want REAL information as opposed to the same people rendering informational threads unpleasant and unproductive with their selfish repeatitve opinions.


If someone wants to hear something about the new "M", then telling about the quality of an M-camera is absolutlely appropiate.
I agree, however, that we should not discuss the built of Leica lenses here in this thread.

How well the "M" works with old MF lenses is indeed the main topic here, but I doubt that there will be many people around who have tried that. So the thread will be rather empty for a while. Would that be better?

I have at least read about this and have seen some images taken with classic (also non-Leica) lenses on an "M" and the results were very nice - surely up to what you would achieve with an EOS 5D MkIII or a Nikon D800.

But until I have not tried this out myself, I will not write a detailed text about other guy's experiences.

Here is a thread in a German forum about adapting EXA-lenses to the M:
http://www.digicamclub.de/showthread.php?t=18006

It's all in German and there are no example shots, just gear shots. We can at least see that it looks good with those old lenses. Wink


PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Concerning going off-topic . . . Yes indeed, fair enough, staying on-topic is good and of the greatest help when specific information is being sought. But it's in the nature of threads to meander, rather as conversations do in 'real life', so lets not be too harsh on those of us who wander off into the rough grass on occasion.

Getting back to what Nordentro asked about originally, he might like to look at Leica User Forum to see how those lucky enough to own an M240 are getting on with older Leica-fitting rangefinder and reflex lenses. Not much sign yet that owners are looking to use older 'foreign' SLR lenses on the new model, but that may come.

(As an aside, nodding to LucisPictor's comment that the camera's correct title is simply M, most of the owners there seemingly call it the M240 . . . As he'll know, Leica owners have been using 'M' as a collective term for all the M series cameras since the mid-1950s and I doubt that they are going to fall in with the current Solms marketing team's preferred new term in the near future.)


PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i have the greatest respect for you both, as photographers and 'forum friends', and i'm sincerely sorry if you took my comments personally. and i do not believe that either of you set off to be off topic. rather i see it as this thread immediately was hijacked off topic, and everyone else responed to the 'hijack' and not the original topic. and thats the issue. and it breaks down two ways:

1-certain folks as a matter of course 'hijack' threads with opinions that have nothing to do with the topic the OP intended. i find this rude and disrespectful because it happens so often, and with the same culprits.

2-there is virtually no question about a leica product that anyone can ask on this forum that does not lead to this tired but constant rehashing of the same generalized leica debate. i tuned in here, and on other threads, because the OT held the promise that i might learn something. but instead, right from the get-go, the topic is ignored, the same tiresome anti leica rhetoric is unleashed, follwed by the inevitble, and equally tiresome, defenses. i can recite them all in my sleep, and they can be pulled from any thread with 'leica' in the title.

there are many times when i, and others, seek out member opinions. but can there never be times when we can just ask for 'user experience' and have an expectation that be respected? as members, i hope we can be more concious of what the OP wants and call out others who just want to hear themselves talk at the expense of respect for the intentions of the original poster.
tony


PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting thread this became Very Happy

Well, I really just wondered how this camera would be to pair up with some old m42 and m39 lenses for instance (as I have a few) Wink

I would love to own a digital FF camera with short register distance to combine it with old MF lenses. There is rumors of an FF NEX in the near future, but I am not sure if the NEX is the thing for me Confused

So my wishes are:
- a digital camera with a compact form factor (rangefinder alike)
- FF sensor
- retro style camera

Currently, there is only the M Rolling Eyes

My best friend bought a $6500 Rolex watch a month ago. He just turned 40, and he told me that he wanted just this watch all his life. It may seem strange to use that amount on a watch or a camera, but who lift their eyebrows if you buy a $100 000 SUV?!?

So it is not really about the money, it is what you desire and what you priorities IMO Rolling Eyes


PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nordentro wrote:
Interesting thread this became Very Happy

Well, I really just wondered how this camera would be to pair up with some old m42 and m39 lenses for instance (as I have a few)Wink


me too!


PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I found this interesting post Very Happy

http://www.flickr.com/photos/urmelchen/9102353360/in/set-72157633313408060/


PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nordentro wrote:

Well, I really just wondered how this camera would be to pair up with some old m42 and m39 lenses for instance (as I have a few) Wink


From what I have heard and read, the new "M" is nothing but amazing with adapted old lenses. LiveView seemd to work well and the sensor is an excellent performer, it will be outshining the lenses in most cases rather then be a limiting factor.


PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nordentro wrote:
I found this interesting post Very Happy

http://www.flickr.com/photos/urmelchen/9102353360/in/set-72157633313408060/


This is from the very same guy who posted in the Digicamclub link I posted above.
There is (or at least was) no EXA-M-adapter, so Henry (hinnerker) - our member and inventor of the VNEX - made one.
(Henry is the owner and chief admin of the digicamclub as well.)


PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 10:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have owned and used Leicas in the distant past and I understand exactly the feeling of quality you have. The weight, smoothness of operation, that 'snick' of the shutter instead of a 'slap' So I do understand. But this camera is a modern camera and by all accounts uses slightly aged technology. Why can't Leica get it right and all the others can?

I think Ians claim that a Russian Jupiter 11A is more solidly constructed than a Leica lens (was it Elmarit?) is a little ambitious, I dare say you could hammer a nail in with a J11A but the mechanics gum up and get nasty with age. Whereas a Leica lens will still work nicely.

The photos I have seen taken with the Monochrom to me look grey and dismal. Ok if you want 50 shades of grey with no real blacks and whites. I think a camera with a Bayer filter that can be moved or switched on and off may present the best solution to in-camera black and white.


PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 10:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It was more that the Elmarit 135 reminded me of the J11A, similar aesthetics (ugly, industrial) but felt less solid. Certainly there was nothing about the looks, feel or performance of the Elmarit that stood out above any of a number of other, much cheaper lenses. The Summicron-R 2/50 was a similar story, it was ugly and not better than several much cheaper 50s. It had a less than smooth focus so Leica aren't immune to lubricant deterioration with age.

Leica these days are in the lucky position of not having any real competition, which is sad for all of us, because competition is a good thing. What I meant about it being so hard to get an unbiased view is illustrated by the older 35mm Leicas. They weren't as well engineered or built as a Contax RF (ask any repairman) and the level of fit and finish wasn't as nice as a Voigtlander Prominent, but Leica have survived where the others haven't, so today they have a reputation greater than they really deserve.

I agree about the dull, flat, gray and gray looks of the Leica Mono output, but there's nothing else similar to compare it to. If there was some competition for it, then it is likely it would be assessed more rationally and fairly. I mean, a Contax was cheaper than the contemporary Leica and a better camera, which pushed Leica to improve their product, but today, Leica don't have a direct competitor so the pressure for them to improve things just isn't there and they can charge what they like almost, because there isn't a Contax or a Prominent applying pressure on them.


PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 11:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

philslizzy wrote:
...Then theres that expensive toy that only takes muddy grey pictures.


Nikkor 10.5cm F2.5 on the M Monochrom, DNG straight export to JPEG using LR4.



C-Sonnar 50/1.5, at F4.



If you are getting muddy pictures from your M Monochrom, try an Orange filter.


PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 12:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Second one is nice, first one is the gray and gray look I'm not so keen on.


PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 12:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BrianS wrote:


C-Sonnar 50/1.5, at F4.



If you are getting muddy pictures from your M Monochrom, try an Orange filter.


Damn it, I can learn the hole Zone System just looking at this pic!

[]s,

Renato


PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 12:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ian,

For sure, Contax, etc, but the original question was...?

Laughing

Cheers,

Renato


PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 1:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, sorry, didn't mean to go off-topic. My point was just, when Leica is the only player in the FF mirrorless game, then they can charge higher prices and get away with things like using an obsolete lower res LCD. If there was competition, they would probably have to produce a better product at a lower price.

It will be interesting to see what effect the Sony FF MILC has on Leica, especially as it is likely that the Sony plus a copy of Silver EFEX will be half the price of a Leica mono.