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Tair-11 Another one
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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 8:53 pm    Post subject: Tair-11 Another one Reply with quote

Some of you may remember that I very much like my Tair 11 2.8/133. It came to me a few years ago dirty and falling apart. I got it back together, but it just misses infinity and I didn't get the aperture ring right so that it clicks in place. Nevertheless, it became one of my top two lenses in the focal length range. I absolutly love the bokeh and the sharpness. I had an opportunity to pick up another today in what appears to be very good condition, complete with case and both end caps. As an added bonus, this one also comes with an original receipt of some kind, but is in Russian (Cyrillic?) as is the name on the lens (my other is labeled as TAIR) Can someone provide a translation?





PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 9:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On top it says passport

In order a quick translation : Tair 11 , focal 133,4, max aperture 2.8

..... then my skills stop Very Happy until the date of making : 25 / ( can't read there ) 1965

anyway it's a nice lens !


PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Passport
for photographic lens Tair-11 # 008637
F 133.4 mm relative opening 1:2.8
Resolution:
Center: 28
Edge: 18
Working distance: 45.21
Lab (Signature)
25.xx.1965 QC (Signature)

Don't know what the month is, need higher quality picture.


PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fermy wrote:
Passport
for photographic lens Tair-11 # 008637
F 133.4 mm relative opening 1:2.8
Resolution:
Center: 28
Edge: 18
Working distance: 45.21
Lab (Signature)
25.xx.1965 QC (Signature)

Don't know what the month is, need higher quality picture.


Wouldn't it be nice if new lenses these days came with a factory test sheet signed off by a quality control officer.
A wonderful find - congratulations.
OH


PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 1:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the translation. Since the signatures are different for Lab and Quality Control, they were performed by diffirent individuals in separate processes. Are we to believe that the lines of resolution and working distance are specific to this lens? That would leave me wondering how it compared to others like it.


PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 6:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now that is intresting! I wondered what the data means on the "passport" Smile I think your Tair and my Helios would make a grat pair. Very similar date of production, different signatures though. Mine is sharper in the centre but worse on the borders Smile



Tomas


PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 1:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd love to have a Helios-40 with or without a passport. I later searched on the Tair-11 and found where someone posted specs and ithad the same resolution numbers. But I don't know why the form was called Passport; was that just being cute or did it have a meaning?


PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All similar device documents in Soviet Union were called "passport". There is nothing deep in it.

woodrim wrote:
Are we to believe that the lines of resolution and working distance are specific to this lens? That would leave me wondering how it compared to others like it.


Yes, obviously this was the intention. For some time they used to write real measured FL on the vanity ring for example of Industar-61 L/D, that's why one can find them in various FL from 50 to 55mm. The question is whether any of these numbers are accurate. I can bet that some of them were arbitrarily written by a technician too lazy to perform actual measurement.


Last edited by fermy on Thu May 02, 2013 2:52 pm; edited 1 time in total


PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fermy wrote:
All similar device documents in Soviet Union were called "passport". There is nothing deep in it.


+1 I did like this lens, it has nice character and bokeh.


PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My Polish brother-in-law has a full set of Zenit and lenses galore along with a huge electronic flash (power pack and flash tube on a handle connected by cable) and has the boxes and passports for everything.

Perhaps this is not entirely correct but this is how my bro-in-law explained it:

In the Soviet Union and the eastern bloc countries cameras and radios were considered to be luxury items so factories were set up to mass produce them and make it easy for the populace to acquire them. Owning a Zenit (etc) camera, Vega radio or TV or Rigonda stereo gave the people a feeling that they have luxury goods equal to the west.

The factories tested every item coming off the line listing the actual focal length and lines per mm on an optical bench. The radios and tv's had the tuners tested and the exact frequency range of each band was put on their 'passport'. Cameras and lenses, particularly rangefinders had the standard 50mm lenses matched to the bodies, swopping lenses would result in a slight reduction in performance.

Families were not allowed to own more than two cameras and if they were given permission to travel, only one camera was allowed (plus lenses etc) and the passport had to accompany each item. Copies were attached to a carnet (list of equipment carried) which was held by the border authorities. If you returned without a piece of your gear you were in trouble.

Ok pick holes in it but that is how it was explained to me.

My wife and her brother visited relatives in France in 1982. Her bro decided to buy a camera in the west rather than take his. He got a Polaroid Button and a couple of films. Lovely photos of the Eifell Tower and family. But when he got it home there was no film available for it. It ended up being an ornament and object of curiosity to friends who visited.


PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

philslizzy wrote:

Perhaps this is not entirely correct but this is how my bro-in-law explained it:

Families were not allowed to own more than two cameras and if they were given permission to travel, only one camera was allowed (plus lenses etc) and the passport had to accompany each item. Copies were attached to a carnet (list of equipment carried) which was held by the border authorities. If you returned without a piece of your gear you were in trouble.
[/i]
Ok pick holes in it but that is how it was explained to me.


Well, that sounds like a bunch of Grimm's tales. Keep in mind though, that Soviet Union existed for a long time, so it's possible that some of those crazy rules were in effect at some point in time. Cameras certainly were luxury items so having 2 or 3 of them was uncommon. However, in 70-80 there was no per household camera limit as you didn't have to register the camera in your name anywhere. Perhaps KGB was doing all the paperwork for you, but they didn't advertise it Laughing I personally knew someone with 3 of them and he was unmarried with no kids, so no child camera allowance for him Wink

The story with a passport required to take the camera abroad is quite absurd. Soviet customs were always royal pain in the ass to deal with, so perhaps the limit of 2 cameras per family pertains to customs regulations. It is also possible that camera passport made dealing with customs easier, but there was no requirement to have this passport when crossing the border, obviously one could always write a S/N in the customs forms.


PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 7:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm a bit too young to remember those times myself, but having grown up in an ex-Soviet block country, those stories don't sound that absurd to me. In the mid-eighties my Father owned a Pentacon Six and a Practica, plus lenses, filters and a fully equipped home photo lab, including some kind of enlarger. The bathroom and kitchen of our apartment acted as darkrooms, where I could sit with him and watch over his shoulder while he developed the photos and sometimes did some tricks like putting some detail from image to another one.
At that time there were probably no more restricitions as to the number of cameras per household, my Dad's gear was mostly brought from DDR, partly for ideological reasons I guess. Thus my first Helios lens was one bought recently, not found in some forgotten cupboard at home, like many people in Poland found theirs Smile


PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 8:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lena wrote:
I'm a bit too young to remember those times myself, but having grown up in an ex-Soviet block country, those stories don't sound that absurd to me. In the mid-eighties my Father owned a Pentacon Six and a Practica, plus lenses, filters and a fully equipped home photo lab, including some kind of enlarger. The bathroom and kitchen of our apartment acted as darkrooms, where I could sit with him and watch over his shoulder while he developed the photos and sometimes did some tricks like putting some detail from image to another one.
At that time there were probably no more restricitions as to the number of cameras per household, my Dad's gear was mostly brought from DDR, partly for ideological reasons I guess. Thus my first Helios lens was one bought recently, not found in some forgotten cupboard at home, like many people in Poland found theirs Smile


I was born in Australia but my parents come from Croatia. Under former communist Yugoslavia all sorts of things went on. There were even spy's sent to keep an eye on Croatian community here in Sydney. Nothing sounds absurd when you actually hear about events that took place and even witness them yourself first hand.


PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 9:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

parabellumfoto wrote:
Lena wrote:
I'm a bit too young to remember those times myself, but having grown up in an ex-Soviet block country, those stories don't sound that absurd to me. In the mid-eighties my Father owned a Pentacon Six and a Practica, plus lenses, filters and a fully equipped home photo lab, including some kind of enlarger. The bathroom and kitchen of our apartment acted as darkrooms, where I could sit with him and watch over his shoulder while he developed the photos and sometimes did some tricks like putting some detail from image to another one.
At that time there were probably no more restricitions as to the number of cameras per household, my Dad's gear was mostly brought from DDR, partly for ideological reasons I guess. Thus my first Helios lens was one bought recently, not found in some forgotten cupboard at home, like many people in Poland found theirs Smile


I was born in Australia but my parents come from Croatia. Under former communist Yugoslavia all sorts of things went on. There were even spy's sent to keep an eye on Croatian community here in Sydney. Nothing sounds absurd when you actually hear about events that took place and even witness them yourself first hand.


Of all the former comunist block, former Yugoslavia was the most liberal (not really a part of it, actually, Yugoslavia was not a member of the Warshaw pakt, for example) i know that, i grew up in it (Slovenia), that said it was still a paranoid and opressive regime and what you say about spies it s true. One thing that must be said is that both sides where seen as enemies, the west and the Sovient Union. It would lead to a purely political debate if we go on, not a thing to do in this forum Smile

Tomas


PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 10:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tomasg wrote:


Of all the former comunist block, former Yugoslavia was the most liberal (not really a part of it, actually, Yugoslavia was not a member of the Warshaw pakt, for example) i know that, i grew up in it (Slovenia), that said it was still a paranoid and opressive regime and what you say about spies it s true. One thing that must be said is that both sides where seen as enemies, the west and the Sovient Union. It would lead to a purely political debate if we go on, not a thing to do in this forum Smile

Tomas


Hi Tomas,

I was mindful of the fact that its all old politics that doesn't belong here. I could talk about a whole lot of events that occurred here in Sydney. The Yugoslav secret police were just as bad as the Stazi and the rest of them. Most Australians are oblivious to what went on. Poles, Hungarians, Slovaks etc living here knew the truth.

Anyways, like you said it's best leave it at that.

Passports for lenses.…


PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 11:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

parabellumfoto wrote:
tomasg wrote:


Of all the former comunist block, former Yugoslavia was the most liberal (not really a part of it, actually, Yugoslavia was not a member of the Warshaw pakt, for example) i know that, i grew up in it (Slovenia), that said it was still a paranoid and opressive regime and what you say about spies it s true. One thing that must be said is that both sides where seen as enemies, the west and the Sovient Union. It would lead to a purely political debate if we go on, not a thing to do in this forum Smile

Tomas


Hi Tomas,

I was mindful of the fact that its all old politics that doesn't belong here. I could talk about a whole lot of events that occurred here in Sydney. The Yugoslav secret police were just as bad as the Stazi and the rest of them. Most Australians are oblivious to what went on. Poles, Hungarians, Slovaks etc living here knew the truth.

Anyways, like you said it's best leave it at that.

Passports for lenses.…


Don t get me wrong, i am not arguing, or trying to defend a former regime, but there where some differences, bear with my basic english please Smile As i said it was a paranoid, control obsessed regime, the "UDBA", the secret service, politic police, saw enemies everywhere, in Yugoslavia and abroad. Emigrants, like your parents, where seen as potential enemies, thus they sent spies also into the emigrants comunities.
If it s not too personal, may i ask which part of Croatia where they from? After WW2 many, many Croatian left, there are some islands in the Kvarner and Dalmatia that where almost abandoned.

I think this "passports" where like the stickers on some of todays products, i know some Nikkor lenses had them, but just saying: "QC, passed"

Tomas


PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tomasg wrote:


Don t get me wrong, i am not arguing, or trying to defend a former regime, but there where some differences, bear with my basic english please Smile As i said it was a paranoid, control obsessed regime, the "UDBA", the secret service, politic police, saw enemies everywhere, in Yugoslavia and abroad. Emigrants, like your parents, where seen as potential enemies, thus they sent spies also into the emigrants comunities.
If it s not too personal, may i ask which part of Croatia where they from? After WW2 many, many Croatian left, there are some islands in the Kvarner and Dalmatia that where almost abandoned.

I think this "passports" where like the stickers on some of todays products, i know some Nikkor lenses had them, but just saying: "QC, passed"

Tomas


Hi Tomas,

I'm not misinterpreting anything you say as being defensive and am not taking offence or anything like that. I have never been to Croatia but I can personally speak of first hand experience with UDBA. Like I said earlier, I don't want to go into old politics, but I had to back up those 'stories' as well as what Lena stated.

You could be right in these so called 'passports' being some sort of 'quality control' but the cynic in me has me thinking it was a form of 'people control.'

Either way - the subject is what it is and it's all part of photographic history. I find it interesting and am not getting upset or emotional. I'm just telling it how I see it. Others may form the opinion that these passports were just quality assurance. All modern corporations live by this system so it's natural to assume so. I personally suspect there was more to it and believe those silly absurd stories to be bang on the money.

My father is from Dalmatia and my Mother is from Slavonia.

Tomislav


PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I personally find the current discussion more interesting than my posted subject. I do understand that this forum isn't for politics, so I ask if it would be of interest to continue this discussion in the Cafe or Dive Bar, preferably the Cafe so anyone can participate. Having grown up as the western enemy, I have perceptions of my own developed from information of the time. I don't see it as a debate or argument, but instead a sharing of those perceptions and experiences. After all, one cannot debate another person's experience. Would others be interested in continuing this in... what forum?

As for the Passport receipt itself, I see now that it isn't so rare an item, but I do appreciate having this piece of history nonetheless; That is, when I finally get it, which I suspect will be in a few months.


PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

woodrim wrote:
...
As for the Passport receipt itself, I see now that it isn't so rare an item, but I do appreciate having this piece of history nonetheless; That is, when I finally get it, which I suspect will be in a few months.


They are quite rare, it's rare to have one with the original camera and lens. I have lots of Russian equipment but only one passport with my Leningrad 4 meter.

Regards my original post, 2 cameras were what I was told, last autumn when visiting Lodz. I thought at the time "I'm sure I read that somewhere".

Visiting France was the nightmare; permissions, passports, visas, letters, birth certificates, family history, who you were visiting, why, where you going when there etc. Bureaucracy gone mad. So why not camera equipment listed on a carnet. You could get in trouble if you sold it.

I suppose things were a little different traveling between eastern bloc countries.

Just to finish off. In the 80's my brother and I ran a bar at Manchester University we were hosting the Air traffic Controllers cup (5-a-side soccer tournament) the teams from Leningrad and Kiev were bitter rivals and tried all they could to impress us westerners. I arranged a tour of Manchester the next day with a couple of guys from Leningrad. They brought a 'security' man with them who watched us like a sokol (a little Russian pun there) all the time and was nervous as hell. He stopped the guys buying Levis but was ok with records. He wouldn't even let us look in the window of Chester Cameras or talk to people. The Russians were asking me constantly if it was ok to photograph this and that.

I believe what others in this thread have written, I have seen a little and heard a lot. particularly as my wife is Polish and I work with a lot of (older) former eastern bloc people.

I think the passport provided the equivalent of the 'Passed' sticker and proof of ownership. We didnt really see many here in the UK, perhaps they got lost when TOE were inspecting the imports.


PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

woodrim wrote:
I personally find the current discussion more interesting than my posted subject. I do understand that this forum isn't for politics, so I ask if it would be of interest to continue this discussion in the Cafe or Dive Bar, preferably the Cafe so anyone can participate. Having grown up as the western enemy, I have perceptions of my own developed from information of the time. I don't see it as a debate or argument, but instead a sharing of those perceptions and experiences. After all, one cannot debate another person's experience. Would others be interested in continuing this in... what forum?

As for the Passport receipt itself, I see now that it isn't so rare an item, but I do appreciate having this piece of history nonetheless; That is, when I finally get it, which I suspect will be in a few months.


I would like to give the point of view from someone who lived "behind the iron curtain", i always like to hear opinions from people from the west. I have two kids, when we visit our friends with kids i always notice the "mistakes" they are doing trying to "educate" them, as i am sure my mistakes are also arpparent to them, sometimes you need someone from the outside to tell you how things really are.

If you start such a conversation i ll gladly participate.

Tomas


PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

parabellumfoto wrote:
tomasg wrote:


Don t get me wrong, i am not arguing, or trying to defend a former regime, but there where some differences, bear with my basic english please Smile As i said it was a paranoid, control obsessed regime, the "UDBA", the secret service, politic police, saw enemies everywhere, in Yugoslavia and abroad. Emigrants, like your parents, where seen as potential enemies, thus they sent spies also into the emigrants comunities.
If it s not too personal, may i ask which part of Croatia where they from? After WW2 many, many Croatian left, there are some islands in the Kvarner and Dalmatia that where almost abandoned.

I think this "passports" where like the stickers on some of todays products, i know some Nikkor lenses had them, but just saying: "QC, passed"

Tomas


Hi Tomas,

I'm not misinterpreting anything you say as being defensive and am not taking offence or anything like that. I have never been to Croatia but I can personally speak of first hand experience with UDBA. Like I said earlier, I don't want to go into old politics, but I had to back up those 'stories' as well as what Lena stated.

You could be right in these so called 'passports' being some sort of 'quality control' but the cynic in me has me thinking it was a form of 'people control.'

Either way - the subject is what it is and it's all part of photographic history. I find it interesting and am not getting upset or emotional. I'm just telling it how I see it. Others may form the opinion that these passports were just quality assurance. All modern corporations live by this system so it's natural to assume so. I personally suspect there was more to it and believe those silly absurd stories to be bang on the money.

My father is from Dalmatia and my Mother is from Slavonia.

Tomislav


Ok, people here (former Yugoslavia) can stil get very emotional when discussing these themes still today. I am an avid amateur historian, if i can say it like that, i like very much all militarly history, particulary WW2 which was fought here also, of course. So i know a few things about it, i would really like to hear what was UDBA doing abroad, i did research what they did here. Of course that is not a photographic theme anymore and should be discused somewhere else.

Tomas


PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think the passport is that rare since it accompanied every sold lens. Of course people tend to lose or throw them away when the lens was no longer under warranty, when they moved, when the lens was resold, etc. In the end it's just as rare as accompanying paperwork for Japanese lenses: not very common, but strictly speaking not a rarity.

One of my Photosniper sets has an accompanying passport. Unlike woodrim's it no longer lists resolution or any other lens' technical data, just serial numbers and QC signature. The passport is from 1977.


PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

philslizzy wrote:
Perhaps this is not entirely correct but this is how my bro-in-law explained it:

In the Soviet Union and the eastern bloc countries cameras and radios were considered to be luxury items so factories were set up to mass produce them and make it easy for the populace to acquire them. Owning a Zenit (etc) camera, Vega radio or TV or Rigonda stereo gave the people a feeling that they have luxury goods equal to the west.


I was born in the Soviet Union. When I was a kid, my father had a bunch of cameras and lenses: two or three Zeniths, a couple of FED's, Smena Symbol (my first camera), LOMO, etc. In the 70's-80's at least these were expensive, but no longer a luxury. The cost of a Zenith with Helios-44 or, for example, a Jupiter-9, was equivalent to about 1/3 of my father's monthly salary *at the time*. In the 50's or 60's the story could be different, of course.

philslizzy wrote:

The factories tested every item coming off the line listing the actual focal length and lines per mm on an optical bench. The radios and tv's had the tuners tested and the exact frequency range of each band was put on their 'passport'. Cameras and lenses, particularly rangefinders had the standard 50mm lenses matched to the bodies, swopping lenses would result in a slight reduction in performance.


Sounds pretty much like Zeiss, doesn't it? Surprisingly, this was the truth: each lens was individually tested with film on an optical bench, and the numbers were filled in the so-called "passport" that accompanied the lens when it was sold. The "passport" would be required to obtain warranty service; when the lens was purchased, the store would datestamp the passport. This would be enough for the warranty; the owner would not have to present the receipt or another proof of purchase.

The individual testing of lenses continued in the 70's, when the quality started declining. At a certain point, the measured numbers were no longer provided to the customers (yet, supposedly, they were still kept at the factory). Later on (I don't know exactly when) factories stopped individual testing, and only performed control on a few samples out of a batch. This, in particular, explains why late USSR-produced lenses are, en mass, of a lower quality than those produced a decade earlier.

As to television picture tubes, those were also tested individually. They had a rather high rejection rate. As little could be done to fix those vacuum-filled tubes, rejected samples were marked down in price and sold in specialized stores to junior hams. Sometimes these rejected tubes were bought by unscrupulous TV repair technicians who then charged unsuspected owners the full repair price.

philslizzy wrote:

Families were not allowed to own more than two cameras and if they were given permission to travel, only one camera was allowed (plus lenses etc) and the passport had to accompany each item. Copies were attached to a carnet (list of equipment carried) which was held by the border authorities. If you returned without a piece of your gear you were in trouble.


I am pretty sure that by the beginning of 70's such border crossing rules did not exist. It does not necessarily mean that they weren't in force for some period of time, all I know is there were no such rules by the beginning of 1970's.


PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

woodrim wrote:
But I don't know why the form was called Passport; was that just being cute or did it have a meaning?


My feeling is that in Russian, the word "passport" may have a more generic use than in English - its proper translation might be "certificate" in this context.

Some years ago, I saw some plush animal toys that came with a passport attached to them stating the name of the puppet. I wonder what discussions will be generated 50 years from now when someone will find one. Smile


PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 1:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tomasg wrote:


Ok, people here (former Yugoslavia) can stil get very emotional when discussing these themes still today. I am an avid amateur historian, if i can say it like that, i like very much all militarly history, particulary WW2 which was fought here also, of course. So i know a few things about it, i would really like to hear what was UDBA doing abroad, i did research what they did here. Of course that is not a photographic theme anymore and should be discused somewhere else.

Tomas


For the third time!

I am not getting emotional.

Just stating fact!

Google "framed Croatian six, Sydney"

Just stating the fact that all sorts of crazy and scary events took place!