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old found film used and developed
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 26, 2013 9:46 pm    Post subject: old found film used and developed Reply with quote

While on holiday in Poland I picked up an old East German Certo 35, it seemed to work well but when I took it out of the case the bottom dropped off. Hmm needs fixing. However inside the Certo was an old film seemingly only just put in no exposures taken. I wound it back and put it in my bag. Later when my Olympus Trip finally ran out of Vista Colour I decided to give it a go. I set the meter to 100, figuring it wouldn't be any higher than 125 or lower than 50 (ASA/ISO).

This morning I developed it, I knew it was B&W by the colour of the emulsion so I guessed and gave it 10 mins (at 24C) in quite old Fomadol that was a couple of months old. The developer came out grey and cloudy. Not normal. However it worked, the negs are reasonably contrasty and only a couple of tweaks were needed in Photoshop to compensate the shortcomings of my £15 Maplins 'Gadget' film scanner.

here it is I have no idea what film it was, there are no markings on the margins, not even frame numbers. But plenty of fungus! PLENTY of fungus!

The film in an unmarked cassette, possibly rolled from bulk but the film end had a proper tongue so what make was it anyone?....



The sprockets and no markings. First glimpse of fungus.



These photos were taken in Warsawa mostly in the Stare Miasto (Warsaw's old town)

1



2



3


4


The lack of apparent sharpness is due to the film having a natural curve and the scanner not being able to hold it straight.

Not important photos, I had my digital P&S for the important stuff.

Despite the fungus on the film the lens on the Certo is clean as a whistle. More food on a film than a lens!!


PostPosted: Fri Jul 26, 2013 11:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The last picture, the hand, is stunning. Cool


PostPosted: Sat Jul 27, 2013 9:37 am    Post subject: Re: old found film used and developed Reply with quote

philslizzy wrote:

These photos were taken in Warsawa mostly in the Stare Miasto (Warsaw's old town)



I really like your shots.The fungus gives them something of a vintage touch. The last one, of the hand, is particularly nice. The fungus on it produced a lovely floral pattern of sorts. The camera must have been lying in someone's damp basement for years.

I was just strolling in Warsaw's Old Town last night with my incomparably better half, thinking I have to show up there at 5 AM to get some nice shots of the architecture before the crowd fills the streets.


PostPosted: Sat Jul 27, 2013 7:36 pm    Post subject: Re: old found film used and developed Reply with quote

Lloydy wrote:
The last picture, the hand, is stunning. Cool


Thanks Dave, the fungus just seems to fit right in and appears to force the eye to the hand.

konicamera wrote:
philslizzy wrote:

These photos were taken in Warsawa mostly in the Stare Miasto (Warsaw's old town)



I really like your shots.The fungus gives them something of a vintage touch. The last one, of the hand, is particularly nice. The fungus on it produced a lovely floral pattern of sorts. The camera must have been lying in someone's damp basement for years.

I was just strolling in Warsaw's Old Town last night with my incomparably better half, thinking I have to show up there at 5 AM to get some nice shots of the architecture before the crowd fills the streets.


You'll know where this hand is then? Good luck at 5am!

I read a tip about photographing busy streets use a heavy duty ND filter and take 2 or 3 minute long exposures. My brother did that in Venice and it worked quite well. But parked cars are a major problem - they stay there!


PostPosted: Sun Jul 28, 2013 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lloydy wrote:
The last picture, the hand, is stunning. Cool
+1


PostPosted: Sun Jul 28, 2013 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

martinsmith99 wrote:
Lloydy wrote:
The last picture, the hand, is stunning. Cool
+1


X2.


PostPosted: Sun Jul 28, 2013 2:38 pm    Post subject: Re: old found film used and developed Reply with quote

philslizzy wrote:

You'll know where this hand is then? Good luck at 5am!


I appreciate your picture of this hand because through it, for the first time, I saw something graceful and pleasing to the eye in an otherwise monstrous sculptural installation which I dislike intensely.

As to the 5 AM outing, I'll try it next Sunday with my Autoreflex T3 and my Hexanon 21/4.


PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 10:47 pm    Post subject: Re: old found film used and developed Reply with quote

konicamera wrote:
philslizzy wrote:

You'll know where this hand is then? Good luck at 5am!


I appreciate your picture of this hand because through it, for the first time, I saw something graceful and pleasing to the eye in an otherwise monstrous sculptural installation which I dislike intensely.

As to the 5 AM outing, I'll try it next Sunday with my Autoreflex T3 and my Hexanon 21/4.


I missed your last post here. I agree the sculpture is monstrous everything is 1.5 times bigger than normal but I understand what it is about. Events in Poland's turbulent past is something we have not had in centuries here in UK.

I will 'scan' this neg again with my new setup


PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 7:22 am    Post subject: Re: old found film used and developed Reply with quote

philslizzy wrote:


Events in Poland's turbulent past is something we have not had in centuries here in UK.

I will 'scan' this neg again with my new setup


...and cos we haven't been invaded (against our consent) for a 1000 years, many mainland Europeans considers us to have an Island mentality Laughing


PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 9:15 am    Post subject: Re: old found film used and developed Reply with quote

Excalibur wrote:
philslizzy wrote:


Events in Poland's turbulent past is something we have not had in centuries here in UK.

I will 'scan' this neg again with my new setup


...and cos we haven't been invaded (against our consent) for a 1000 years, many mainland Europeans considers us to have an Island mentality Laughing


As a historian by training, I can't resist throwing in a couple of observations here. I know there is this image of Poland being incessantly invaded by all of its allegedly nefarious neighbors in turn, but it wasn't always or quite like this for most of its history. Roughly until the mid-17th century, Poland's wars with its neighbors didn't differ all that much from those of, say, France in either frequency or intensity. Until that time, the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, as it was officially known, was the continent's largest state and one of its most powerful. It usually stood its ground quite effectively and its western border with the German states had been one of the most peaceful on the continent for centuries. The picture changed as both Prussia and Russia rose to become major absolutist land powers, and this process largely coincided in time with a crisis of government in Poland that weakened the state from within. Many in Poland saw which way the wind was blowing and there was a movement to reform the political system (which was an elective monarchy). Unfortunately, it was unsuccessful and the decline continued until the end of the 18th century, when Poland was carved up by the three empires that surrounded it, despite sweeping constitutional reforms introduced at the last minute by the king, of all people. In the end, Poland ceased to exist as an independent state until 1918, when all three partitioning powers disintegrated. After 20-some years of independence came WWII. We know what happened after the war. So the depiction of Poland as a victim of "invaders" holds some accuracy for the last 350 years or so.

As to Britain not being invaded, I like to tease my British friends by pointing out that the Poles succeeded in the last 10 years where both Napoleon and Hitler failed: They invaded the British Isles (I duly take note of the fact that it was not "against our consent"). I believe Poles are the largest single minority in Britain today: Pierogis, Polish sausage and Belweder vodka on every street corner. Na zdrowie! Smile


Last edited by konicamera on Sun Sep 22, 2013 10:24 am; edited 1 time in total


PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 10:24 am    Post subject: Re: old found film used and developed Reply with quote

konicamera wrote:
Excalibur wrote:
philslizzy wrote:


Events in Poland's turbulent past is something we have not had in centuries here in UK.

I will 'scan' this neg again with my new setup


...and cos we haven't been invaded (against our consent) for a 1000 years, many mainland Europeans considers us to have an Island mentality Laughing


As a historian by training, I can't resist throwing in a couple of observations here. I know there is this image of Poland having been invaded by all its allegedly nefarious neighbors for a 1000 years, but it wasn't quite like this. Until, roughly, the mid-17th century, Poland's wars with its neighbors didn't differ much from those of, say, France. Until that time, the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, as it was officially known, was the continent's largest states and one of the most powerful. It could stand its ground quite effectively and its western border with the German states was for centuries one of the quietest on the continent. The picture changed as both Prussia and Russia rose to become major land powers, and this process largely coincided in time with a crisis of government in Poland that weakened the state from within. Many in Poland saw which way the wind was blowing and tried to reform the political system in Poland (which was an elective monarchy), but were unsuccessful in the end. The decline lasted until the end of the 18th century, when Poland was partitioned by the three empires that surrounded it, despite sweeping constitutional reforms introduced at the last minute. Poland ceased to exist as a state, until 1918, when it was reconstituted after the Versailles Treaty. We know what happened in 1939 and what followed after the war. So the depiction of Poland as a victim of "invaders" holds some accuracy for the last 350 years or so.

As to Britain not being invaded, I like to tease my British friends by pointing out that the Poles succeeded in the last 10 years where both Napoleon and Hitler failed: They invaded the British Isles (I duly take note of the fact that it was not "against our consent"). I believe Poles are the largest single minority in Britain today: Pierogis, Polish sausage and Belweder vodka on every street corner. Na zdrowie! Smile


Well I sorta had to mention "against our consent" but in reality for example:-William of Orange was invited to be King (and accepted)..but the first thing he did was to put Dutch troops on the streets of London (I suppose just in case anyone objected) and Londoners were perplexed at all these soldiers speaking a weird language.....and I would guess that all our sayings today come from that time like speaking "double Dutch" and "going Dutch" etc

And didn't the Mongols invaded Poland.................


PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 10:42 am    Post subject: Re: old found film used and developed Reply with quote

Excalibur wrote:

And didn't the Mongols invaded Poland.................


They did sweep through in 1220s. They went as far west as present day Legnica, where a fierce battle was fought by a united force of 50,000 slow and heavy Polish, Czech and German knights on the one hand, and some 20,000 light Mongol archers on the other. The Europeans were mounted on slow heavy horses and the mongols on swift ponys. Needless to say, it was a carnage which, supposedly, left dozens of thousand knights on the ground.
The Mongols went back home nevertheless and never attempted to penetrate Europe this far west again, but not because they had been dissuaded by superior military force. It was just election time back home - the Great Khan had died and a new one had to be chosen (progressive lot, weren't they?). Smile


Last edited by konicamera on Sun Sep 22, 2013 11:14 am; edited 1 time in total


PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 11:12 am    Post subject: Re: old found film used and developed Reply with quote

konicamera wrote:
Excalibur wrote:

And didn't the Mongols invaded Poland.................


They did sweep through in 1220s. They went as far west as present day Legnica, where a fierce battle was fought by a united force of 50,000 slow and heavy Polish, Czech and German knights on the one hand, and swift and some 20,000 light Mongol archers on the other. The Europeans were mounted on slow heavy horses and the mongols on swift poneys. Needless to say, it was a carnage with, supposedly, left dozens of thousand knights on the ground.
The Mongols went back home nevertheless and never attempted to penetrate Europe this far west again, but not because they had been dissuaded by superior military force. It was just election time back home - the Great Khan had died and a new one had to be elected (progressive lot, weren't they?). Smile


Calvary against the Mongols was the wrong tactics as they were excellent, best to invite enemy cavalry to attack defensive positions like the English used to do, flanked with many archers using the longbow (draw weight 140Ibs, 15 arrows a min that could penetrate thin armour) and the arrows were sometimes stuck in anything from excreta to mud to infect the wounds.


PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 11:19 am    Post subject: Re: old found film used and developed Reply with quote

Excalibur wrote:
15 arrows a sec

15 arrows per sec? What sort of longbow was that?


PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 11:32 am    Post subject: Re: old found film used and developed Reply with quote

konicamera wrote:
Excalibur wrote:
15 arrows a sec

15 arrows per sec? What sort of longbow was that?


Laughing amended to min..... But the elite French knights came unstuck against the longbow. In fact before the battle of Waterloo, Wellington did ask "did we have anyone in the UK that could use a long bow"... to be used against mass French infantry (it would be like using machine guns), and was told there were no one.


PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

At both Agincourt and Waterloo, we had an ally - mud. The French got stuck in it both times. The other major factor was the French leadership on both occasions was incompetent. Smile

The last recorded kill with a longbow by a British soldier was during ww2 - a sargeant carried one and used it.

The ascension of William of Orange (Billy the bastard) was perhaps the greatest tragedy to befall the English. It gave rise to the banking system that has enslaved us ever since.

But back to the original topic, I've never seen fungus on an old film before, it must have been stored very badly. The film would probably be one of the Russian types, Svema maybe.


PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
At both Agincourt and Waterloo, we had an ally - mud. The French got stuck in it both times. The other major factor was the French leadership on both occasions was incompetent. Smile


French leadership was incompetent at Waterloo? Tactical mistakes aside, and I'm sure there were some on both sides, Waterloo was a very close call from what I remember and the dice were thrown only when the Prussian cavalry under Blucher showed up - something that seemed in question almost to the last. Had he stopped to rest, the French could have carried the day, once more. Not that this would have changed a thing in the long run. The French were bled dry after a decade and a half of on-and-off warfare against everybody. But at Waterloo, they were simply overwhelmed by superior numbers.


PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not true, the French had the superior numbers, and while the arrival of a couple of Prussian infantry brigades did have some effect, the battle was won by the British and their Dutch and German allies. Napoleon left the control of the battle in it's middle stages to Marshall Ney, who was very brave but also quite stupid. Ney saw the British brigades in the centre retiring behind the crest of the hill to avoid the French canon fire and rashly thought they were retreating, so he launched the French cavalry, without infantry support. The British formed squares, fought off this cavalry attack, and held their line on the ridge. Napoleon returned to command, threw a fit at Ney for launching the cavalry without infantry support and decided to roll the dice by throwing in his last reserve - the much-vaunted old Guard. The Old Guard marched up the hill, Wellington ordered the hidden and relatively undamaged brigades to stand up and pour fire into them and the Old Guard were soundly beaten, shot to pieces. It was only at his point that the Prussian brigades on his extreme right flank began to pressure Napoleon so the cowardly Corsican fled, leaving what remained of his army to it's fate.

Waterloo was 'a close run thing' but make no mistake, it was a triumphant victory for Wellington's superior tactics and leadership and the dogged resistance of the British, Dutch and Germans he commanded.

Even the opening stages of the battle, which were commanded by Napoleon were mishandled, he played directly into Wellington's plans by sending insufficient infantry without sufficient artillery support to attack the bastions of Hougoumont and La Haye Sainte, attacks that were necessary but poorly executed. To be fair to Napoleon though, the torrential rainfall of the night before had turned the bottom of the slope where his army stood into a quagmire and that prevented the formation of a 'Grande Batterie' as was his typical tactic. Napoleon intended to use his massed artillery to smash the British line as it had done against the Austrians, Russians and Prussians in previous campaigns, Wellington expected exactly that hence he chose his ground very well to avoid that - the ridge he chose to occupy provided good protection against artillery fire, so that he was able to preserve the strength of his brigades until the final decisive action.

You can also place some blame for the French defeat on Marshall Soult, who had over 30,000 men in his Corps and was following Blucher as ordered. If Soult had marched to the sound of the guns earlier in the day, as his staff officers wanted, he could have arrived on the field of Waterloo in time to join in the assault on the British position on the ridge, instead, he chose to follow Blucher, which meant he was still miles away when the Old Guard made their assault. Napoleon blamed Soult for his defeat, and he might have been right. It was strange that Soult, his most able Marshall, showed no initiative and meekly followed the order to 'keep his sword at Blucher's back' rather than acting on his own initiative as he had in previous campaigns.

So all in all, yes, the French leadership proved incompetent on that day. First Napoleon mishandled the attacks on La Haye Sainte and Hougoumont, then Ney made a rash cavalry charge that did little other than destroy the French cavalry, then Napoleon gambled with his last reserves and lost. Soult played no part and his inaction was a major factor in the French defeat. The commanders who performed well that day were Wellington, who displayed an understanding of the use of terrain and the preservation of force until the crucial moment and Blucher, who drove his battered and dispirited men forward with an iron will. All of Blucher's staff officers favoured a retreat back over the Rhine, to await the arrival of the Russian and Austrian armies, but Blucher was a real warrior who held a fierce burning hatred of the French and overruled them all, if Wellington would stand and fight, Blucher would do everything in his power to join him. He declared that he would shoot any man he saw with pity in him and would tie his men to trees to stop them retreating if he had to.

You can make an argument that without the heavy rain and mud, Napoleon would have got his Grande Batterie formed in the morning, used it to smash the British and Allies, then made a massed infantry assault and driven them off the ridge. That would have left Blucher to fight the French alone for a second time. If Napoleon had waited until the following day, Blucher and Wellington would have linked up, and outnumbered the French, so he had to try to defeat Wellington at Waterloo, it is hard to see what other option he had as time was against him, the longer he waited, the more time for the Austrians and Russians to march their armies into France. Napoleon planned to defeat Britain and Prussia as quickly as possible, hence his aggressive move into Belgium, so he could then chose to meet the advancing Austrians and Prussians on ground of his choosing.


PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
Not true, the French had the superior numbers, and while the arrival of a couple of Prussian infantry brigades did have some effect, the battle was won by the British and their Dutch and German allies. Napoleon left the control of the battle in it's middle stages to Marshall Ney, who was very brave but also quite stupid. Ney saw the British brigades in the centre retiring behind the crest of the hill to avoid the French canon fire and rashly thought they were retreating, so he launched the French cavalry, without infantry support. The British formed squares, fought off this cavalry attack, and held their line on the ridge. Napoleon returned to command, threw a fit at Ney for launching the cavalry without infantry support and decided to roll the dice by throwing in his last reserve - the much-vaunted old Guard. The Old Guard marched up the hill, Wellington ordered the hidden and relatively undamaged brigades to stand up and pour fire into them and the Old Guard were soundly beaten, shot to pieces. It was only at his point that the Prussian brigades on his extreme right flank began to pressure Napoleon so the cowardly Corsican fled, leaving what remained of his army to it's fate.

Waterloo was 'a close run thing' but make no mistake, it was a triumphant victory for Wellington's superior tactics and leadership and the dogged resistance of the British, Dutch and Germans he commanded.

Even the opening stages of the battle, which were commanded by Napoleon were mishandled, he played directly into Wellington's plans by sending insufficient infantry without sufficient artillery support to attack the bastions of Hougoumont and La Haye Sainte, attacks that were necessary but poorly executed. To be fair to Napoleon though, the torrential rainfall of the night before had turned the bottom of the slope where his army stood into a quagmire and that prevented the formation of a 'Grande Batterie' as was his typical tactic. Napoleon intended to use his massed artillery to smash the British line as it had done against the Austrians, Russians and Prussians in previous campaigns, Wellington expected exactly that hence he chose his ground very well to avoid that - the ridge he chose to occupy provided good protection against artillery fire, so that he was able to preserve the strength of his brigades until the final decisive action.

You can also place some blame for the French defeat on Marshall Soult, who had over 30,000 men in his Corps and was following Blucher as ordered. If Soult had marched to the sound of the guns earlier in the day, as his staff officers wanted, he could have arrived on the field of Waterloo in time to join in the assault on the British position on the ridge, instead, he chose to follow Blucher, which meant he was still miles away when the Old Guard made their assault. Napoleon blamed Soult for his defeat, and he might have been right. It was strange that Soult, his most able Marshall, showed no initiative and meekly followed the order to 'keep his sword at Blucher's back' rather than acting on his own initiative as he had in previous campaigns.

So all in all, yes, the French leadership proved incompetent on that day. First Napoleon mishandled the attacks on La Haye Sainte and Hougoumont, then Ney made a rash cavalry charge that did little other than destroy the French cavalry, then Napoleon gambled with his last reserves and lost. Soult played no part and his inaction was a major factor in the French defeat. The commanders who performed well that day were Wellington, who displayed an understanding of the use of terrain and the preservation of force until the crucial moment and Blucher, who drove his battered and dispirited men forward with an iron will. All of Blucher's staff officers favoured a retreat back over the Rhine, to await the arrival of the Russian and Austrian armies, but Blucher was a real warrior who held a fierce burning hatred of the French and overruled them all, if Wellington would stand and fight, Blucher would do everything in his power to join him. He declared that he would shoot any man he saw with pity in him and would tie his men to trees to stop them retreating if he had to.

You can make an argument that without the heavy rain and mud, Napoleon would have got his Grande Batterie formed in the morning, used it to smash the British and Allies, then made a massed infantry assault and driven them off the ridge. That would have left Blucher to fight the French alone for a second time. If Napoleon had waited until the following day, Blucher and Wellington would have linked up, and outnumbered the French, so he had to try to defeat Wellington at Waterloo, it is hard to see what other option he had as time was against him, the longer he waited, the more time for the Austrians and Russians to march their armies into France. Napoleon planned to defeat Britain and Prussia as quickly as possible, hence his aggressive move into Belgium, so he could then chose to meet the advancing Austrians and Prussians on ground of his choosing.


Wow, Ian, you've studied the battle in great detail it would seem. I don't feel competent to engage in an interpretative debate on who made what mistakes during the battle and what their consequences were, but I would like to point to a couple of things that seem curious to me in light of what you wrote:
- How were the French superior in number, when 69k of them were facing 67k English + 18k Dutch, + another 20k from various German states allied with the British royal family (without counting Blucher's forces)?
- Blucher forces, when they showed up, added another 45k to the allied side. The two brigades merely showed up first. Within another 2 hours, the rest of the Prussian forces had engaged the French as well;
- From everything I ever read on the subject, Blucher's contribution not only "had some effect" as you say, but was absolutely crucial and ultimately tipped the scales.
Don't get me wrong, I am not questioning the importance of this victory, but it seems to me it was a British one only insofar as the supreme commander was British. Less than half of the allied forces were British in fact, and it seems to me they wouldn't have done it alone.
Anyhow, this is how it seems to me.


Last edited by konicamera on Sun Sep 22, 2013 4:53 pm; edited 2 times in total


PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
At both Agincourt and Waterloo, we had an ally - mud. The French got stuck in it both times. The other major factor was the French leadership on both occasions was incompetent. Smile

The last recorded kill with a longbow by a British soldier was during ww2 - a sargeant carried one and used it.

The ascension of William of Orange (Billy the bastard) was perhaps the greatest tragedy to befall the English. It gave rise to the banking system that has enslaved us ever since.

But back to the original topic, I've never seen fungus on an old film before, it must have been stored very badly. The film would probably be one of the Russian types, Svema maybe.


Well William did give us a bill of rights in 1689 added from Magna Carta which the Americans copied and probably many other countries around the world...and probably explains why England was fairly peaceful from then. Note the bit where we had the right to own guns, and the governments in the 20th century ignored..like many other things.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_of_Rights_1689


PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 5:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well put it this way Konicamera...if the British hadn't got involved in Europe esp at Waterloo, the French would have had a European Empire (and large world empire). And later if the British DID NOT become allies of the French and the Entente Cordiale didn't exist...then in WW1 Germany would have won.


PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

konicamera wrote:

Wow, Ian, you've studied the battle in great detail it would seem. I don't feel competent to engage in an interpretative debate on who made what mistakes during the battle and what their consequences were, but I would like to point to a couple of things that seem curious to me in light of what you wrote:
- How were the French superior in number, when 69k of them were facing 67k English + 18k Dutch, + another 20k from various German states allied with the British royal family (without counting Blucher's forces)?
- Blucher forces, when they showed up, added another 45k to the allied side. The two brigades merely showed up first. Within another 2 hours, the rest of the Prussian forces had engaged the French as well;
- From everything I ever read on the subject, Blucher's contribution not only "had some effect" as you say, but was absolutely crucial and ultimately tipped the scales.
Don't get me wrong, I am not questioning the importance of this victory, but it seems to me it was a British one only insofar as the supreme commander was British. Less than half of the allied forces were British in fact, and it seems to me they wouldn't have done it alone.
Anyhow, this is how it seems to me.


I'll have to check the numbers, but I think it was more like 67k total under Wellington's command, of which around 40k were British. I think Napoleon had more like 80k, plus Soult's 30k, I think his total entering the campaign was around 115k, but I don't have the figures in my head. I don't watch TV much, I prefer to read, and I tend to read what history books turn up in the local charity shop for pennies, as you can imagine, Waterloo and Trafalgar are among the most common subjects.

After the Old Guard was defeated, Napoleon had lost really, Blucher's arrival was important, but it happened after Napoleon's main army had lost the battle, the real effect of Blucher's appearance was to send Napoleon scurrying off towards Paris, leaving his army behind. They continued to fight, but it was really a 'mopping up' operation and the armies of Wellington and Blucher rounded up everyone who didn't flee south. Unless Soult had arrived and reinforced Napoleon, there was no hope. Even if he had arrived, it would probably have just meant the battle would have carried over into a second day, and Wellington still stood on that ridge, the only way for Napoleon to win was to drive the British off that ridge and pursue them to Brussels, scattering them. If there had been a second day, Napoleon would have faced an Allied force on that ridge that was reinforced by 45k Prussians, and the likelihood of a successful assault on the ridge would have been reduced. In short, Napoleon had to defeat Wellington, drive him off that ridge before Blucher arrived, and he failed to do so, it is very doubtful that even with Soult's corps added to his army, he would have been able to make a successful second assault.


PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 10:04 pm    Post subject: Re: old found film used and developed Reply with quote

konicamera wrote:

As to Britain not being invaded, I like to tease my British friends by pointing out that the Poles succeeded in the last 10 years where both Napoleon and Hitler failed: They invaded the British Isles (I duly take note of the fact that it was not "against our consent"). I believe Poles are the largest single minority in Britain today: Pierogis, Polish sausage and Belweder vodka on every street corner. Na zdrowie! Smile

There was a successful minor invasion of the UK after WW2 - I grew up with a lot of Poles of 1st and 2nd generation who had settled in Scotland, when it became obvious that Poland was under the boot of Stalin.


PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 10:36 pm    Post subject: Re: old found film used and developed Reply with quote

Farside wrote:
konicamera wrote:

As to Britain not being invaded, I like to tease my British friends by pointing out that the Poles succeeded in the last 10 years where both Napoleon and Hitler failed: They invaded the British Isles (I duly take note of the fact that it was not "against our consent"). I believe Poles are the largest single minority in Britain today: Pierogis, Polish sausage and Belweder vodka on every street corner. Na zdrowie! Smile

There was a successful minor invasion of the UK after WW2 - I grew up with a lot of Poles of 1st and 2nd generation who had settled in Scotland, when it became obvious that Poland was under the boot of Stalin.


Some of these actually came to Scotland in 1940 and stayed after the war. The influx to which you are referring may be their families. more here: http://www.makers.org.uk/place/PolishInScotland2WW

I enjoyed the history I learned while over there this summer, I admire them as a nation, resilient and not afraid to speak out.

Poland, and other countries have had a rough ride these last few decades. Statues like the one I photographed have an important story to tell, of heroism and fearless determination to defend the defenceless. These are statues of teachers, soldiers and normal people performing feats of great bravery defending the old, the women and the children from the enemy. Putting their own lives at risk. I agree they are big and clumsy looking compared to the smooth classical lines of western Europe's sculpture.

I met two great Poles in the 1980's both in Manchester; Karol Józef Wojtyła who was visiting, I was on security and he shook our hands and blessed us. One day I saw TV cameras and crowds, going over to investigate I saw Lech Lech Wałęsa coming out of the TUC building on Princess St, he was shaking everybodys hands Laughing

Arguably these two gentlemen had an important role in bringing down communism by refusing to kow-tow to the Soviets.

Anyway. I've no problem with the majority of Polish coming here. Most have a good work ethic and slog their guts out all day and do all the overtime they can where I work. The English lads are lazy, complain, come in late and generally dont last.

I married a Polish lady who told me stories of her father who was taken to Germany to work in a uniform factory. We laugh at Dad's Army but her stories, and her older family members stories put it all into perspective.


PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 10:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's a few Poles from ww2 where I live too, there wasn't anything for them to go back home to.

You're right about Poles and their work ethic, I worked in a factory with over 200 of them, they worked so much better, harder and with less complaint than the English, and didn't pull sickies all the time. They are good people in my book.

I'm partial to a Wjieska and a Zwiec too. Wink