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What is a good price for Biotar?
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 11:14 pm    Post subject: What is a good price for Biotar? Reply with quote
The local shop has Contax D with Biotar attached. I don't really need this lens as I am overstocked on 50s, but the thing looks beautiful and I hear the siren's song. The temptation is too strong to show up in the shop with my EPL-1 and m42 adapter and then all the bets are off... So how much would you pay for Biotar that you don't really need? What's the current going rate?


PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 11:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Depends on condition, you need to examine it closely, the coatings on the Biotar are very soft and many of them are covered in light cleaning scratches rendering them soft and lacking contrast. A scratched one, as low as 50eu, a decent one, 75eu, a good one 100eu.

I think those figures are about right.


PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 11:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I have the chrome biotar personaly the build quality is very poor and prefer the helios 44-4


PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 11:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Thanks. The shop owner wants 75, that makes it possibly a good deal or possibly a lousy deal. But that means that I have to return to the shop, you are not helping Laughing


PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 11:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
eddieitman wrote:
I have the chrome biotar personaly the build quality is very poor and prefer the helios 44-4

I heard this first, poor built quality. I had have dozens of them, focus can be dry , but built quality is first class.

Avarage price is around 200 USD, depend from T or not T , AUS JENA or not , size , etc they are not same they have many variants.


PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 11:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
eddieitman wrote:
I have the chrome biotar personaly the build quality is very poor and prefer the helios 44-4


Yeah, it's a chrome Biotar. Any particular weaknesses in the build that I have to pay attention to when examining?


PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 11:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Attila wrote:

Avarage price is around 200 USD, depend from T or not T , AUS JENA or not , size , etc they are not same they have many variants.


Can you fill me in on the pricing? As far as I remember it's not T, not aus Jena and the size looks small. Actually this one looks pretty similar , but it is T. In any case if you could provide a pricing guide, I think it would be interesting for many people here.


PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 11:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
This is around 200 USD if no issue.


PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 11:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Thanks. What if it's the same, but without red T?


PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 11:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Yep the biotar has two rails mounted at the back of the lens made from aluminium very thin about as hard as cheese if the lens drys up they break and snap very easily rendering the lens unfixable


PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 1:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I have the Non T Biotar I picked up for $20...BUT I spent more getting it serviced as already said here, it may suffer from tight focusing ,dry grease etc.Mine also had a milky haze internally before it was cleaned.

I actually spent more buying the Helios... Laughing


PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 12:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
If the seller will give you Contax D body for that price too then take it. Otherwise lower the price to 50 EUR. If focussing is dry but moving normally it's OK you can easily revive it.


PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Attila wrote:
This is around 200 USD if no issue.


That's a bit too steep, really.


PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I have two M42 red T Biotars that I am totally happy with, they are both the first version (1949-1950) which you can tell by the shape of the barrel.
I find the later version (the one whose barrel looks similar to that of Tessar 2.8/50) inferior in quality in both optics and coating.
One of my two Biotars for some reason does not reach infinity - but focuses very close and works wonders as a close focus lens, for still life, product shots, portraits.
So I bought a second one which is calibrated correctly for infinity and I can use that for landscape.
In my personal experience, a very good copy of Helios (if you can find one - it's not easy), can be really sharper than the Biotar.
It is my guess, that Russian engineers, starting from the second version of Helios (the 44-2), have modified the optical design to provide more correction of spherical aberration.
My guess has no source, but it is based on observation. The bokeh highlights of the Helios-44 show more distinct edge rings which is a clear sign of over correction of spherical aberration for sharpness purposes.
The Biotars, the first version especially, has more neutral bokeh highlights. It is perhaps a little less sharp, but the bokeh is of superior quality and the images have a more "organic" look.
It is my guess that the first versions of Biotar use optical glass stock from prewar Jena deposits. The images they produce are very similar in characteristics to the images produced by prewar Jena Sonnars for Contax II and III.
Later Biotars appear to me to produce images very sharp, but of harsher quality. Same as Helios.


PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Orio wrote:
I have two M42 red T Biotars that I am totally happy with, they are both the first version (1949-1950) which you can tell by the shape of the barrel.
I find the later version (the one whose barrel looks similar to that of Tessar 2.8/50) inferior in quality in both optics and coating.
One of my two Biotars for some reason does not reach infinity - but focuses very close and works wonders as a close focus lens, for still life, product shots, portraits.
So I bought a second one which is calibrated correctly for infinity and I can use that for landscape.
In my personal experience, a very good copy of Helios (if you can find one - it's not easy), can be really sharper than the Biotar.
It is my guess, that Russian engineers, starting from the second version of Helios (the 44-2), have modified the optical design to provide more correction of spherical aberration.
My guess has no source, but it is based on observation. The bokeh highlights of the Helios-44 show more distinct edge rings which is a clear sign of over correction of spherical aberration for sharpness purposes.
The Biotars, the first version especially, has more neutral bokeh highlights. It is perhaps a little less sharp, but the bokeh is of superior quality and the images have a more "organic" look.
It is my guess that the first versions of Biotar use optical glass stock from prewar Jena deposits. The images they produce are very similar in characteristics to the images produced by prewar Jena Sonnars for Contax II and III.
Later Biotars appear to me to produce images very sharp, but of harsher quality. Same as Helios.


That all sounds accurate to me, the Biotar is indeed smoother and less harsh than the Helios-44, it is still a sharp lens and sharper than most Helios copies, but as Orio says, a good Helios is sharper than the Biotar. Not sure what year my Biotar is, it's the big silver one, not the earlier small black one.


PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
LucisPictor wrote:
Attila wrote:
This is around 200 USD if no issue.


That's a bit too steep, really.


http://www.ebay.com/itm/CARL-ZEISS-JENA-BIOTAR-2-58-Lens-M42-Pentax-Nikon-Canon-Germany-/170830237931?pt=Camera_Lenses&hash=item27c64690eb

http://www.ebay.com/itm/M42-Carl-Zeiss-2-58mm-Biotar-mint-/140741001204?pt=Camera_Lenses&hash=item20c4d13ff4

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Carl-Zeiss-Jena-Biotar-2-58-M42-mount-58-2-/160784172530?pt=Camera_Lenses&hash=item256f7bc5f2
and many others went above 200 USD , around 200 USD is correct market value today for an issue free Red T Biotar.


PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
Not sure what year my Biotar is, it's the big silver one, not the earlier small black one.


you can give me the serial number, I will tell you the year.

The only second version Biotar that I have tried was a very late one, from 1966.
It's possible that second version Biotars also have differences, they cover a span of 19 years, from 1950 to 1968.
The early second version Biotars started the same years the first version was abandoned (1950)
(actually, some first version ones released with Exakta bayonet were part of a special batch released in 1951, when the
production of the second version already started)
A lot of changes in materials might have happened in the meantime between 1950 and 1968 (and most certainly did)
As a general rule I follow, I always try to buy the earliest possible versions of Jena and Soviet lenses.
My two first version Biotar copies are from 1949 and 1950.
There are two easy ways to tell Biotar version one from version two other than the barrel shape:
- writing (first version has focal lenght written in cms. "5,8 cm" second version in mm. "58mm"
- iris blades (first version has 17 blades, second version has 10 blades)


PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Attila wrote:
LucisPictor wrote:
Attila wrote:
This is around 200 USD if no issue.


That's a bit too steep, really.


http://www.ebay.com/itm/CARL-ZEISS-JENA-BIOTAR-2-58-Lens-M42-Pentax-Nikon-Canon-Germany-/170830237931?pt=Camera_Lenses&hash=item27c64690eb

http://www.ebay.com/itm/M42-Carl-Zeiss-2-58mm-Biotar-mint-/140741001204?pt=Camera_Lenses&hash=item20c4d13ff4

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Carl-Zeiss-Jena-Biotar-2-58-M42-mount-58-2-/160784172530?pt=Camera_Lenses&hash=item256f7bc5f2
and many others went above 200 USD , around 200 USD is correct market value today for an issue free Red T Biotar.


Then it is definitely overpriced!

The Helios-44-2 is not much worse. And yes, I've got a Biotar (EXA) and it renders the images in a very special way, but I would never ever pay US$200 for this lens!


PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
You are in lucky case Carsten , many Biotar comming in your country, so you have diffrent point of view I think . I bought my first Biotar also in Germany. Lens and lens have little difference a Leica lens not much better than Helios or Biotar people pay much more for them. I am glad people respect Biotars they are well deserve it. Higher price means better respect just like on Leica items. Helios is close , but not Biotar.


PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
This is my Biotar, aluminium with 12 blades:




I really don't think the Biotar is overpriced at all, how much is a Leica 2/50 of the same age?

How many Helios-44 would you have to buy before you found one as good as the Biotar?


PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
12 blades, so this is an intermediate version, interesting!
In fact, your Biotar is quite old, yours was released on April 7th, 1953.
It is one of the first amongst the second version.
Interesting is also the fact that is labeled simply "Germany" instead of East Germany.


PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
200 USD is normal price for a good condition red T Biotar 2/58
Prices are rising compared to some years ago when I bought my first one for 58 Euros
I paid my second one 115 Euros and I consider myself very lucky for this beauty!


PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Orio wrote:
12 blades, so this is an intermediate version, interesting!
In fact, your Biotar is quite old, yours was released on April 7th, 1953.
It is one of the first amongst the second version.
Interesting is also the fact that is labeled simply "Germany" instead of East Germany.


Thanks for the info, I think that the formal division of Germany didn't occur until after the death of Stalin as during his time he made proposals to unify the country as a demilitarised zone. The actual declaration of the GDR as a sovereign state didn't occur until 1955. That is probably why it is just labelled 'Germany'.
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