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First images Topcor RE 100m f/2.8
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2021 9:03 am    Post subject: First images Topcor RE 100m f/2.8 Reply with quote

All images directly derived from RAW, no post-processing. Click a few times for full resolution.

Wide open:

Topcor10028629 by devoscasper, on Flickr

Topcor10028630 by devoscasper, on Flickr

Topcor10028631 by devoscasper, on Flickr

Stopped down to f/4:

Topcor10028633 by devoscasper, on Flickr

Topcor10028632 by devoscasper, on Flickr

Impressive performer IMO, especially for a lens from the early sixties. Rendering and colors remind me of my Minolta MDIII 100/2.5. Will do a comparison soon.


PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2021 10:47 am    Post subject: Re: First images Topcor RE 100m f/2.8 Reply with quote

caspert79 wrote:


Impressive performer IMO, especially for a lens from the early sixties. Rendering and colors remind me of my Minolta MDIII 100/2.5. Will do a comparison soon.


Well, both lenses suffer from purple fringing when used wide open, maybe the Topcor a little bit more. I didn't compare them directly up to now. Maybe I do it as well.....
For typical portrait usage under normal light conditions I think both lenses are more than good enough. The real differences will only be visible when used under critical circumstances.


PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2021 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Superb results. Surely among best portrait lenses.


PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2021 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Excellent! Like 1


PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2021 1:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Excellent , amazing for portraits , the question would be ...... How to justify the 15yrs between the MDIII and topcor in term of quality Laugh 1


PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2021 1:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Like 1 Like 1 Very nice.

O.T. Am I the only one having trouble viewing these posts with so many humongous in-line images?


PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2021 6:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

visualopsins wrote:
Like 1 Like 1 Very nice.

O.T. Am I the only one having trouble viewing these posts with so many humongous in-line images?


Sorry about that, here it works fine. Next time I will post seperate links to the full size images.


PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2021 7:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

caspert79 wrote:
visualopsins wrote:
Like 1 Like 1 Very nice.

O.T. Am I the only one having trouble viewing these posts with so many humongous in-line images?


Sorry about that, here it works fine. Next time I will post seperate links to the full size images.


You're very kind. If that's not too much trouble and nobody else minds I'd really appreciate it I suppose in the nearer than we imagine future somebody will be moaning about not being able to stream googolplex-pixel 3-d holographic video without flicker, lol...


PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2021 8:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Excellent. Especially the 1st one which shows the sharpness & bokeh capabilities.


PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2021 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What also surprised me is the color saturation for such an old lens. Outdoor pictures were taken on a very cloudy and dark moment.


PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2021 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looks like you are shooting this on a 42mp camera and the lens is still able to perform without issue?


PostPosted: Sat Dec 18, 2021 9:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cbass wrote:
Looks like you are shooting this on a 42mp camera and the lens is still able to perform without issue?

My 36mp FF and 24mp APS-C cameras show zero indication of reaching the limits of the lenses resolution(for most of my Topcors), except in the extreme corners which was never a big deal back then.
I don't think a 100mp FF sensor will expose their limits, they will IMO still look as good or better than many lenses design 50 years later.


PostPosted: Sat Dec 18, 2021 10:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Like 1 Like 1 Like 1 excellent lens, have it, too!


PostPosted: Sat Dec 18, 2021 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lightshow wrote:
cbass wrote:
Looks like you are shooting this on a 42mp camera and the lens is still able to perform without issue?

My 36mp FF and 24mp APS-C cameras show zero indication of reaching the limits of the lenses resolution(for most of my Topcors), except in the extreme corners which was never a big deal back then.
I don't think a 100mp FF sensor will expose their limits, they will IMO still look as good or better than many lenses design 50 years later.


I have several lenses that seem to resolve much more detail on my A7RII than my former A7. I'm not sure if it's the amount of pixels, or the absence of a low-pass filter. I'm pretty sure the Topcor 100/2.8 lens falls into that category as well. Other lenses that show very high resolution on my A7RII are for example the Minolta MD 35/2.8, Minolta MD 100/2.5, the Mamiya-Sekor 50/2, 55/1.8 and EF 50/1.7, Mamiya SX 135/2.8, Nikkor Ai 55/3.5 macro, Nikkor Ai 85/2 and Tokina AT-X 90/2.5 macro.


PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2021 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's my opinion about the lens, including 100% corner crops from 24 MP FF A7II at different apertures from f2.8 to f11:

http://artaphot.ch/topcon-re/re-auto-topcor-lenses/485-re-auto-topcor-100mm-f28

S


PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2021 2:29 pm    Post subject: Re: First images Topcor RE 100m f/2.8 Reply with quote

tb_a wrote:
caspert79 wrote:


Impressive performer IMO, especially for a lens from the early sixties. Rendering and colors remind me of my Minolta MDIII 100/2.5. Will do a comparison soon.


Well, both lenses suffer from purple fringing when used wide open, maybe the Topcor a little bit more. I didn't compare them directly up to now. Maybe I do it as well.....
For typical portrait usage under normal light conditions I think both lenses are more than good enough. The real differences will only be visible when used under critical circumstances.


Here you are: MD-III 2.5/100mm vs Topcor RE 2.8/10cm.

These images are 100% crops from RAWs taken with the 43MP sony A7RII, converted with Photoshop and sharpened (while converting) with a setting of "40" and "radius 1 px".

The MD-III 2.5/100 clearly has more detail and less CA, but both lenses are doing pretty well considering their age.

NOTE: I have two samples of the Topcor, one "10 cm 1:2.8" shown here and a later "100 mm 1:2.8". The latter is considerably worse at all apertures; so there seems to be some sample variation or a slightly different optical coputation.



S

EDIT: INTERESTINGLY, I CAN'T SEE MUCH DIFFERENCES WHEN LOOKING AT THE IMAGES USING THE WEB BROWSER.
IT'S PROBABLY BEST TO DOWNLOAD THE IMAGE ABOVE AND LOOK AT IT E. G. IN PHOTOSHOP!


PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2021 4:01 pm    Post subject: Re: First images Topcor RE 100m f/2.8 Reply with quote

stevemark wrote:


Here you are: MD-III 2.5/100mm vs Topcor RE 2.8/10cm.

These images are 100% crops from RAWs taken with the 43MP sony A7RII, converted with Photoshop and sharpened (while converting) with a setting of "40" and "radius 1 px".

The MD-III 2.5/100 clearly has more detail and less CA, but both lenses are doing pretty well considering their age.

NOTE: I have two samples of the Topcor, one "10 cm 1:2.8" shown here and a later "100 mm 1:2.8". The latter is considerably worse at all apertures; so there seems to be some sample variation or a slightly different optical coputation.


Thank you. That's what I've realized as well, having the older 10 cm version. I definitely prefer the Minolta lens.


PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2021 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stevemark,

Don't misunderstand me as I appreciate the tests you do. However, testing a classic portrait focal length at infinity for corner sharpness is like slapping baby Jesus in the face. Most of us are not such one dimensional photographers. In the other thread compared to the Minolta MDIII 100 f/2.5 the bokeh was softer and lower contrast while the center at the same contrast and sharpness (very high). For some people that is a highly desirable trait in a portrait lens. For portraits this lens would be preferred over the Minolta by many.

As for sample variation. It has always existed and is present even in modern lenses. However, when you are looking at a lens from the 1960s - 1970s That's 50-60 years where it could have been serviced improperly or dropped or various other things may have happened. Once a lens gets that old you get what you get and there is a long time for previous owners to be the issue and not the factory.


PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2021 3:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cbass wrote:
Stevemark,

Don't misunderstand me as I appreciate the tests you do. However, testing a classic portrait focal length at infinity for corner sharpness is like slapping baby Jesus in the face. Most of us are not such one dimensional photographers. In the other thread compared to the Minolta MDIII 100 f/2.5 the bokeh was softer and lower contrast while the center at the same contrast and sharpness (very high). For some people that is a highly desirable trait in a portrait lens. For portraits this lens would be preferred over the Minolta by many.

As for sample variation. It has always existed and is present even in modern lenses. However, when you are looking at a lens from the 1960s - 1970s That's 50-60 years where it could have been serviced improperly or dropped or various other things may have happened. Once a lens gets that old you get what you get and there is a long time for previous owners to be the issue and not the factory.


Steve's extreme corner tests, are extreme ,for pushing the corners right where so many lenses struggle. On the other hand ,having a FL good for portraits and landscape on the same time , is a plus , so many other lenses do have good resolution (good enough) for portraits but not so good for long distance shooting.
I've shot the RE 58 1.4 with nice results ,but the smaller 5,8 cm 1.8 is worth every penny also, so older cm vs mm, could surprise us sometimes .


Last edited by kiddo on Wed Dec 22, 2021 6:30 am; edited 1 time in total


PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2021 6:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Steve for the comparison. I opened your image in Photoshop.
I think it more or less confirms what I found in my test (with the same camera): http://forum.mflenses.com/topcor-re-100-2-8-vs-minolta-mdiii-100-2-5-t83273.html , although I did my test at short distance in stead of infinity.

I didn't find any difference in center performance really, but I didn't apply sharpening either, and the subject is different. So it may very well be that the Minolta has a slight edge here on a 43 mp camera. The Topcor has weaker corners, which is what I also found. Real life difference for portraiture, close subject shots etc., IMO is negligible. More notable difference from my test however, is that the Topcor has blurrier bokeh at similar aperture settings. There is a slight difference in focal length between the lenses, but I doubt that accounts fully for the difference.


PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2021 6:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have only ever used this lens for portraits.
Mine is the 100mm lens.
It does not lack for sharpness
Tom


#1


#2


PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2021 6:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oldhand wrote:
I have only ever used this lens for portraits.
Mine is the 100mm lens.
It does not lack for sharpness
Tom


#1


#2


Mine is the 100mm as well, and plenty of sharpness.


PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2021 11:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oldhand wrote:
I have only ever used this lens for portraits.
Mine is the 100mm lens.
It does not lack for sharpness
Tom


Mine is the 100mm as well, and plenty of sharpness.


PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2021 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

An additional test. Center performance at close distance.
The little green dot is where I put the focus. I did the test once more, and shifted the point of focus a little, just as a control.

100%cropsA by devoscasper, on Flickr

Second test:
100%cropsB by devoscasper, on Flickr

I think the Topcor looks a bit better in the first test at wider apertures, but the difference is probably explained by slight out of focus images of the Minolta.
In the second test, the Minolta seems to generate a little more detail from f/5.6 and smaller. Keep in mind that each crop is only 1,3% of the total image size (42,3 mp). Here's an overview of the full image:
Minolta@56B by devoscasper, on Flickr


As a bonus I thought it would be fun to throw in the Tokina AT-X 90mm f/2.5. I moved the tripod a bit closer to get a comparable frame:
100%cropsTokinaATXvsMinolta by devoscasper, on Flickr

Purple fringing wide open from the Tokina, but in terms of detail, this lens keeps on shocking me Smile


PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2021 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

caspert79 wrote:

Purple fringing wide open from the Tokina, but in terms of detail, this lens keeps on shocking me Smile


Which one keeps shocking you? The Tokina or the Minolta? To my eyes the Minolta looked a bit better than the Tokina when it came to details although it's so close it doesn't really matter.