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Sonnar 1.5 6cm , Can I get some info? (Pics Added)
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Here are some pictures of my fake 6cm Sonnar





Klaus


PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 3:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Wow this is a really amazingly good fake Smile
There's also a M39 50mm F1.5 Sonnar made by Zeiss and by KMZ (called Jupiter 3) which looks slightly similar and really exists bye the way.

I like to see how these fake lenses perform.
Who made them if not Zeiss? Or is it third party cheap lens with a Zeiss-Like fake casing? The production of and working with optical glass to make very difficult. Shocked


PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 4:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
the lens is not obviously coated like other lenses from zeiss or others, there isnt any color to the coating, but i do suspect there is some form of early colorless coating like an oxidation layer type, maybe

the s/n could be of a prototype since i found some prototypes from zeiss to have 6 digit s/n

why there is not Zeiss Jena or other Zeiss engravings on the lens is beyond me, because if you wanted to fake a zeiss wouldnt you want to engrave the Zeiss name on it?!


PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 6:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I doubt this is a fake as it's not unique, identical ones have turned up.

This is one:



Thread discussing it here:

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45497

At a guess, I'd say this is a WW2 military item.

Have a look at this PDF, it has a similar lens with the 6 spanner indentations and make reference to a verified authentic 6cm Sonnar owned by a prominent collector called Fricke:

http://www.leica-historica.de/VIDOM_92.pdf


PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 7:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Interesting!


PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
What does the pdf say Ian? i cant read Dutch...

Crying or Very sad Crying or Very sad


PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 10:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
ForenSeil wrote:
Wow this is a really amazingly good fake Smile
There's also a M39 50mm F1.5 Sonnar made by Zeiss and by KMZ (called Jupiter 3) which looks slightly similar and really exists bye the way.

I like to see how these fake lenses perform.
Who made them if not Zeiss? Or is it third party cheap lens with a Zeiss-Like fake casing? The production of and working with optical glass to make very difficult. Shocked


Not really good, when screwing the lens out of the focussing device, you can see that it was made by a skilled backyard technican. And the internal number on the rear, that can be seen after breaking it into two parts is 1407/.
Not a prototype by Zeiss. Zeiss prototypes were made very precisely and technically perfect. No slipshod work.
I'm sure, these lenses were made in batches by a skilled technican from left-over military parts from WWII.

Klaus


PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 10:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
iangreenhalgh1 wrote:

At a guess, I'd say this is a WW2 military item.

Have a look at this PDF, it has a similar lens with the 6 spanner indentations and make reference to a verified authentic 6cm Sonnar owned by a prominent collector called Fricke:

http://www.leica-historica.de/VIDOM_92.pdf


I rather doubt the wartime origin. All experts identify it as being not Zeiss Jena made, and the document you link to positively identifies the unique coating as one only known from a Swiss contractor, used on a Berthiot lens in the 46-48 time frame (which would place the lenses after the war). The "genuine" lenses you link to don't have any mention of Zeiss on the engraving either.


PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
The though thing here is that (so i've read) it is thought that Zeiss released a 1.5 6cm lens for Leica mount in a very small batch, and stopped soon after, the problem here, is that no one seems to have a genuine copy so we will be able to compare it the non genuine ones.

Or, this information is not true, and maybe zeiss never did release a 6cm 1.5 for Leica in the first place.

this is the problem, can some one give info on that?


PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 10:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Smoli4 wrote:

Or, this information is not true, and maybe zeiss never did release a 6cm 1.5 for Leica in the first place.

this is the problem, can some one give info on that?


I have never heard of any reference to anything like that in the Zeiss records - which are quite complete down to individual prototypes. But not all records have a good description, and being ordered by serial and date of production, it is possible that items of unclear description, unknown date and with wrong or missing serial might escape everybody. You can't really prove a negative, but overall it is very unlikely...


PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
ZEISS (West) actually did make a few prototypes for Sonnars, the 101299 V7 (1951) and V13 (1953), both f1.5/50mm for CONTAX but I haven't found a 60mm or 58mm


PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 7:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I think it's impossible that a guy in a backyard is able to make optical elements.
A lot of equipment is necessary to do this.
So if this is fake, from which lens could be the glas?


PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 8:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
It isn't a fake, I'm sure about that, otherwise why would there be a few of them in circulation?


PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
It isn't a fake, I'm sure about that, otherwise why would there be a few of them in circulation?

Caus they were made from parts available at Carl Zeiss Jena plant after WWII destruction by whomever, but don't be considered as Zeiss lenses, except from people believing swastika Leicas for real. Nevertheless they are different from Jupiter lenses upgraded by a "Carl Zeiss Jena" beauty ring. It would be fun to look how many "Zeiss" lenses in the 2.9xx.xxx area still existing, I bet there are millions....


PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 3:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lens is travel to me , friend of mine who was born into a 3 generations antique merchant family (he has good connection to all major Hungarian collectors) will show to them , so hopefully we will know more. Lens barrel is not Jupiter or other Russian what I know.


PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
taunusreiter wrote:
iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
It isn't a fake, I'm sure about that, otherwise why would there be a few of them in circulation?

Caus they were made from parts available at Carl Zeiss Jena plant after WWII destruction


Maybe. However, some of these 60mm's have been taken apart and show a coating of Swiss post-war origin, which would be hard to explain on a lens from the semi-legal Jena cottage industries. Other explanations might be a (aborted) attempt by some Swiss maker at copying the Sonnar after the patents were public domained, or lens parts from a breach of Swiss neutrality reused after the war (many Swiss companies had German ties).


PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Whatever the case, this sure is an interesting lens and it would be great to find out it's true history, let's hope Attila can find out. Would also be great if some sample pics could be made with it.


PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
While searching for some Helioplan lenses in my collection for another thread, I found another fake Sonnar in my collection.
Here is a side by side comparision of my two Sonnar 1:1,5 6cm. Both behave like 1:2,8 f= ~8cm
Carl Zeiss Jena Sonnar 1:1,5 6cm Nr 2914080
Carl Zeiss Jena Nr.2914099 Sonnar 1:1,5 f=6cm





Klaus


PS: Anyone believing that this hodgepodge was Zeiss-made?


PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Thank you Klaus, certainly they are not looks like made by Zeiss.

Today I got lens from Diwa MANY THANKS!, to try it out and sell it on behalf to him if possible. I did try it out already, I will publish result later and my opinion about it's origin.


PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Nice im glad you got it so fast Very Happy
and.. my name is Dima Laughing its short for Dmitry


PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Smoli4 wrote:
Nice im glad you got it so fast Very Happy
and.. my name is Dima Laughing its short for Dmitry


Smile sorry.


PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
common its nothing Wink


PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
kds315* wrote:
Looks fake to me sadly enough (as well as teh one in kevincamera site), there is no ZEISS mentioned and teh serial number is non exiting in THIELE's books. Military numbering usually is very different from that, but a 6 digit number would be way to low for a coated lens if made by Zeiss (Jena or West)


Lens is on my desk already, it is not marked as Zeiss , just Sonnar engraved on. Lens is high quality lens I did try it out today, uncoated or single coated. Barel looks different from any Russian what I know and bigger too. Precisely made ... all what I know from lens only this now. I am only sure it is not made as fake Carl Zeiss lens, due no Zeiss engraving on it.


PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
http://forum.mflenses.com/sonnar-6cm-f1-5-t46018.html

Sample images in Gallery , all are processed on my usual way.
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