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Comparison between a Few 17-21mm Lenses
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2016 9:05 am    Post subject: Comparison between a Few 17-21mm Lenses Reply with quote

I have accumulated a number of wide angle lenses with a focal length of more or less 20mm. I love 20mm lenses. For me, 20mm is the most useful focal length for wide angle photography. I find 15-16mm or wider is too much for a rectilinear lens because the deformations near the edges of the frame are too unpleasant (I prefer to use a fisheye when I need a wider angle). On the other side, I find 24mm and 28mm not wide enough for most uses. That's why I have so many 20mm lenses...

Today, as the weather was fine, I decided to shoot a few pictures with my favorite 20-ish lenses. I have deliberately excluded the worst lenses (for example, my copy of the Vivitar 19/3.5 is awful, and the same goes for my Cosina 19-35 zoom).

Here are the selected lenses, ready for the shootout:


From right to left: Tamron Adaptall 51B 17/3.5, Pentax-M 20/4, Pentax FA 20-35/4, Pentax-FA 20/2.8, Super-Takumar 20/4.5, Carl Zeiss Jena Flektogon 20/4, Cosina Voigtlaender Ultron 21/1.8


The size varies greatly from one lens to the other and the fastest lenses are not necessarily the biggest!

The pictures were shot on my Sony A7 in raw format and processed with the same settings in Capture One without correcting for vignetting or chromatic aberrations. The camera was on a tripod, with 2 sec delay and I adjusted the focus with the help of the magnifier before each shot. I shot 3 pictures for every lens: one wide open, one at F/5.6 and one at F/11. I have posted the resulting images on a Zenfolio page:
http://abbazz.zenfolio.com/ultrawides

As I already knew what to expect from these lenses from an optical quality standpoint, the biggest surprise for me was the variation in field of view between these lenses. For example, the Flektogon 20/4 covers a much narrower field than the Super-Takumar 20/4.5.

Now, if you ask me which lens I prefer, I am afraid I cannot answer this question. They all have distinct qualities that make me prefer one lens or the other according to the subject, the light and the circumstances. I would not shoot an event in a dim nightclub with the same lens as a seascape in bright sun. I love the way Flektogon renders at F/11 but I find it too bulky to bring it with me when traveling. On the other side, the Pentax-M 20/4 is certainly not the sharpest lens but it is so tiny and renders such nice colors, that it often finds its way into my bag...

Cheers!

Abbazz


Last edited by Abbazz on Sun May 01, 2016 4:31 pm; edited 1 time in total


PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 1:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Excellent comparison, Abbazz! Like 1 small

I have a Tamron SP 17mm F3.5 and your test confirms the good performance wide open, except in the extreme corners, which require some stopping down for true sharpness.

You noted that the Flektogon 20mm F4 has a real focal length greater than 20mm. The newer version Flektogon 20mm F2.8 has real FL of about 21mm. The same way, the real FL of the Pentacon 29mm F2.8 is more than 30mm. It seems that the rules used by optical designers in the former East Germany were poorly calibrated... Rolling Eyes

I noticed that for the Flektogon 20mm F4, coma is the dominant aberration in the corners, while for the Pentax-M 20mm F4 it is astigmatism. As a general rule, coma decreases very quickly with stopping down, but astigmatism is more persistent. This could explain why the Pentax-M is not sharp in the corner even at F11.

I was not impressed with the sharpness in the corners of the CV Ultron wide open. OK, the aperture F1.8 is wider than the other lenses, but nonetheless this goes against the myth in which many people believe, that a symmetrical wide-angle lens always outperforms a retrofocus.

I like the performance of the Pentax-FA 20-35mm F4. Very good for a wide-angle zoom.


PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 2:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for performing this test. I, too, have the Tamron 17mm f3.5 and wondered if I was missing anything by not trying other lenses. Based on your results, I think that I can say that there isn't a big enough difference between them for me to search out another UWA.


PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 2:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, let me also chime in and say that I also own a copy of the Tamron SP 17mm and yours is the first test I've seen using this lens with one of the Sony A7 series cameras. To me, the Tamron's results look very good -- a little soft in the extreme corners, but not really objectionable.

Your test is important to me because I've been seriously considering buying a clean A7, and one of the reasons why I want one is so I can use my ultra wides and extra wides on it (three 24s, one 20 and two 17s). So thanks very much for this!


PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 2:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cooltouch wrote:
Well, let me also chime in and say that I also own a copy of the Tamron SP 17mm and yours is the first test I've seen using this lens with one of the Sony A7 series cameras. To me, the Tamron's results look very good -- a little soft in the extreme corners, but not really objectionable.

Your test is important to me because I've been seriously considering buying a clean A7, and one of the reasons why I want one is so I can use my ultra wides and extra wides on it (three 24s, one 20 and two 17s). So thanks very much for this!


I took this just this past week using a Sony A7II and the Tamron SP 17mm. I don't know how much you can really tell from the photo being resized, but it is very sharp. Look at the house, not the trees. The wind was blowing and there is some movement in the trees.

DSC02564 by James Poupard, on Flickr


PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 3:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gerald wrote:
Excellent comparison, Abbazz! Like 1 small

Thank you Gerald!

Gerald wrote:
I have a Tamron SP 17mm F3.5 and your test confirms the good performance wide open, except in the extreme corners, which require some stopping down for true sharpness.

The Tamron is not a bad lens. It shows quite a lot of blue chromatic aberration under some circumstances (even when stopped down) but this is fairly easy to correct with software.

Gerald wrote:
You noted that the Flektogon 20mm F4 has a real focal length greater than 20mm. The newer version Flektogon 20mm F2.8 has real FL of about 21mm. The same way, the real FL of the Pentacon 29mm F2.8 is more than 30mm. It seems that the rules used by optical designers in the former East Germany were poorly calibrated... Rolling Eyes

Despite not being as wide as other lenses, the Flektogon has some strong points: very low distortion, very close minimum focus (15cm / 6 inches), nice rendering and adequate sharpness when stopped down.

Gerald wrote:
I noticed that for the Flektogon 20mm F4, coma is the dominant aberration in the corners, while for the Pentax-M 20mm F4 it is astigmatism. As a general rule, coma decreases very quickly with stopping down, but astigmatism is more persistent. This could explain why the Pentax-M is not sharp in the corner even at F11.

Yes, the Pentax-M is never really sharp in the extreme corners, but the borders are OK at F/11. Extreme corners are not always important and it's really nice to be able to put a small 20mm lens in a pocket and forget about it until you need to use it. Not something you could do with the Flektogon!

Gerald wrote:
I was not impressed with the sharpness in the corners of the CV Ultron wide open. OK, the aperture F1.8 is wider than the other lenses, but nonetheless this goes against the myth in which many people believe, that a symmetrical wide-angle lens always outperforms a retrofocus.

Ultron has a lot of coma at F/1.8 and vignetting is pretty severe. Both defects clean up when you stop down and the lens is very sharp over the whole field at f/8-11. I don't think the Ultron will be a great lens for Milky Way shots but it is quite competent for street photography in dim places (crowded gloomy market places in Asia), thanks to the fast aperture and large depth of field, allowing the lens to be used at the hyperfocal without the need for precise focusing.

Gerald wrote:
I like the performance of the Pentax-FA 20-35mm F4. Very good for a wide-angle zoom.

The FA 20-35 is a great zoom. Like the M 20/4 lens, it somewhat lacks sharpness in the extreme corners but otherwise renders nicely. And 20-35 is a great range for a walkabout lens on full-frame.

Cheers!

Abbazz


PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 3:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LifesShort wrote:
Thanks for performing this test. I, too, have the Tamron 17mm f3.5 and wondered if I was missing anything by not trying other lenses. Based on your results, I think that I can say that there isn't a big enough difference between them for me to search out another UWA.

You're welcome! Yes, the Tamron is a good lens among the vintage ultrawides. Certainly one of the best bargains for a lens notably wider than 20mm.

Cheers!

Abbazz


PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 4:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cooltouch wrote:
Well, let me also chime in and say that I also own a copy of the Tamron SP 17mm and yours is the first test I've seen using this lens with one of the Sony A7 series cameras. To me, the Tamron's results look very good -- a little soft in the extreme corners, but not really objectionable.

Your test is important to me because I've been seriously considering buying a clean A7, and one of the reasons why I want one is so I can use my ultra wides and extra wides on it (three 24s, one 20 and two 17s). So thanks very much for this!

You're welcome!

The main drawback of the original A7 when used with ultrawides is the issue with sensor reflections. Due to the wide field of view of these lenses, it is very common to have the sun (during the day) or the moon or an artificial lightsource (at night time) inside the frame; this will result in series of unsightly blue-green blobs, like in the following picture (A7 is on the left, A7II on the right):


Picture credit: Phillip Reeve http://phillipreeve.net/blog/sony-a7ii-vs-sony-a7/

Cheers!

Abbazz


PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 4:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LifesShort wrote:
I took this just this past week using a Sony A7II and the Tamron SP 17mm. I don't know how much you can really tell from the photo being resized, but it is very sharp. Look at the house, not the trees. The wind was blowing and there is some movement in the trees.

DSC02564 by James Poupard, on Flickr

Nice picture! I should try some nighshots with mine.

Cheers!

Abbazz


PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 4:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LifesShort wrote:
I took this just this past week using a Sony A7II and the Tamron SP 17mm. I don't know how much you can really tell from the photo being resized, but it is very sharp. Look at the house, not the trees. The wind was blowing and there is some movement in the trees.


Very impressive, James. I can see a fair amount of detail along the edges and corners. The lens looks like it was holding up pretty well. Couple of questions. What aperture were you using, and do you recall how long you had your shutter open? I really like the stars, but you had the shutter open long enough where they were beginning to show trails -- which I don't mind; it adds the dimension of time to the photo.


PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 6:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well done Sebastien!!

I don't have that many, but if I need a wide one, I take my 17mm Tokina


PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 8:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kds315* wrote:
Well done Sebastien!!

I don't have that many, but if I need a wide one, I take my 17mm Tokina

Thank you, Klaus!
I have never tried the 17mm Tokina but people who have used both the Tokina and the Tamron usually find them very similar in image quality (within the usual sample variation limits). The Tamron is usually a bit more expensive though because the Adaptall mount makes it a more versatile lens (although the Adaptall advantage is not so important anymore with the abundance of cheap adapters we have nowadays).

Cheers!

Abbazz


PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 8:22 am    Post subject: Re: Comparison between a Few 17-21mm Lenses Reply with quote

Abbazz wrote:
n 20/4 covers a much narrower field than the Super-Takumar 20/4.5.

Now, if you ask me which lens I prefer, I am afraid I cannot answer this question. They all have distinct qualities that make me prefer one lens or the other according to the subject, the light and the circumstances. I would not shoot an event in a dim nightclub with the same lens as a seascape in bright sun. I love the way Flektogon renders at F/11 but I find it too bulky to bring it with me when traveling. On the other side, the Pentax-M 20/4 is certainly not the sharpest lens but it is so tiny and renders such nice colors, that it often finds its way into my bag...

Cheers!

Abbazz



Spoken like a true lens lover! Very Happy


Great comparison set.
Thanks for sharing.

Now, I'm kicking myself for not buying the FA20-35 cheap when I had the chance.

The Takumar 20 looks reasonable to me, I might just add it to complete my usable range of M42 lenses.


PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Abbazz wrote:
LifesShort wrote:
I took this just this past week using a Sony A7II and the Tamron SP 17mm. I don't know how much you can really tell from the photo being resized, but it is very sharp. Look at the house, not the trees. The wind was blowing and there is some movement in the trees.

DSC02564 by James Poupard, on Flickr

Nice picture! I should try some nighshots with mine.

Cheers!

Abbazz


Thanks! This was a 30 sec. exposure at ISO 1600 and f5.6. I fired the flash manually at some point during the exposure. I was using an old Canon auto-thyristor flash and it nailed the exposure on the house.


PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cooltouch wrote:
LifesShort wrote:
I took this just this past week using a Sony A7II and the Tamron SP 17mm. I don't know how much you can really tell from the photo being resized, but it is very sharp. Look at the house, not the trees. The wind was blowing and there is some movement in the trees.


Very impressive, James. I can see a fair amount of detail along the edges and corners. The lens looks like it was holding up pretty well. Couple of questions. What aperture were you using, and do you recall how long you had your shutter open? I really like the stars, but you had the shutter open long enough where they were beginning to show trails -- which I don't mind; it adds the dimension of time to the photo.


Thank you. The exposure was 30 sec., ISO 1600 @ f5.6. I probably could have shortened the exposure and either bumped the ISO or opened the lens a little, but, like you, I don't mind the start trails. I was photographing the house for a friend so I wanted to make sure I carried a fair amount of depth of field, keeping all of the house and the fence in focus. I used an olld Canon auto-thyristor flash to light the house.

One comment about this lens: some will not like the vignetting that you get at f5.6 and lower. However, it doesn't bother me. It can easily be corrected in post if you don't like it. In this particular photo, you can see that I got vignetting just like Abbazz did in his terrific comparison. In this instance, I liked the vignetting so much that I added to it slightly in post. Looking at the other lenses in the comparison, it looks like there is vignetting with every lens...at least to some degree.


PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 12:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Comparison between a Few 17-21mm Lenses Reply with quote

pinholecam wrote:
Spoken like a true lens lover! Very Happy


Great comparison set.
Thanks for sharing.

Now, I'm kicking myself for not buying the FA20-35 cheap when I had the chance.

The Takumar 20 looks reasonable to me, I might just add it to complete my usable range of M42 lenses.

Thank you for the kind words, Jenkwang!

The Takumar 20/4.5 is usually seen as an inferior lens, because there are very few reviews on the net and they are usually rather negative. I don't think the Tak 20/4.5 merits such a bad rap. For example, many reviewers insist on the "huge distortion" but in fact the distortion is not worse than other comparable superwide lenses from that time (except for the 20/4 Flektogon, which is almost distortion-free). Sharpness is also more or less in line with other vintage superwide lenses (of course the lens a bit dreamy wide open). As for the flare, the Tak is indeed susceptible to it but we all know that flare can be used for creative purposes! I would nevertheless advise to use the sunshade if available, especially with the single-coated Super-Takumar. The sunshade is a rather rare item that comes in two parts: a 58-77 step-up adaptor (which is also used to mount 77mm filters to avoid vignetting) and a rectangular sunshade with a 77mm thread (I also use it on my Flektogon).

Cheers!

Abbazz


PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 1:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Comparison between a Few 17-21mm Lenses Reply with quote

Abbazz wrote:
pinholecam wrote:
Spoken like a true lens lover! Very Happy


Great comparison set.
Thanks for sharing.

Now, I'm kicking myself for not buying the FA20-35 cheap when I had the chance.

The Takumar 20 looks reasonable to me, I might just add it to complete my usable range of M42 lenses.

Thank you for the kind words, Jenkwang!

The Takumar 20/4.5 is usually seen as an inferior lens, because there are very few reviews on the net and they are usually rather negative. I don't think the Tak 20/4.5 merits such a bad rap. For example, many reviewers insist on the "huge distortion" but in fact the distortion is not worse than other comparable superwide lenses from that time (except for the 20/4 Flektogon, which is almost distortion-free). Sharpness is also more or less in line with other vintage superwide lenses (of course the lens a bit dreamy wide open). As for the flare, the Tak is indeed susceptible to it but we all know that flare can be used for creative purposes! I would nevertheless advise to use the sunshade if available, especially with the single-coated Super-Takumar. The sunshade is a rather rare item that comes in two parts: a 58-77 step-up adaptor (which is also used to mount 77mm filters to avoid vignetting) and a rectangular sunshade with a 77mm thread (I also use it on my Flektogon).

Cheers!

Abbazz


I aquired the Tak recently and I also find its reputation unwarranted. It is actually very sharp, and has the lovely Takumar handling as a bonus. I will be using this lens a lot.

HOWEVER, my copy has a relatively annoying problem. It focuses PAST infinity, so you have to be very careful when operating at the infinity mark.


PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Abbazz,

I think all the lenses you have tested can produce excellent photos. Of course, any lens will show its flaws if the picture is looked closely enough. Current sensors work as microscopes that reveal all the residual aberrations of a lens.

The Flektogon 20mm F4 is a lens of great historical value. It is cited in many books as an innovative design of ultra wide angle lens. It is remarkable that it can still produce excellent images in digital cameras with high resolution sensors.

About the Tamron SP 17mm F3.5, it is important to remember that it is much more difficult to design a good 17mm lens than a 20mm or 21mm. Of course I'm talking of lenses for FF sensors. The 18mm lenses for APS-C are FF equivalent to 28mm, which is much easier to design than a 17mm.

In my experience, virtually all non-symmetrical lenses suffer from some lateral chromatic aberration, including almost all wide-angle retrofocus and telephoto lenses. A notable case of lens that is virtually free of lateral chromatic aberration is the normal 50~60mm lens based on the Double Gauss formula.

In my opinion, except perhaps for the last 400x400 pixels at the extreme corners, lateral chromatic aberration of the Tamron SP 17mm F3.5 is not stronger than other non-symmetric lenses. To show this point, I posted 100% crops of last 800x800 from the top left corner of 24MP (6000x4000) test images for Tamron 17mm F3.5, CZJ Flektogon 20mm F2.8, CZJ Sonnar 180mm F2.8, and Helios 44-4M 58mm F2.

All lenses were stopped down to F11 to minimize aberrations other than laCA. Obviously, the Sonnar 180mm F2.8 is not a wide angle lens, but you may notice that it also suffers from laCA. Interestingly, for a telephoto lens, the "hot" colors (red / magenta / yellow) fringes are on the interior sides of the black squares, and the "cold" colors (cyan/green/blue) fringes are on the exterior side. For a wide angle lens, it is just the opposite.

Tamron SP 17mm F3.5:


CZJ Flektogon 20mm F2.8:


CZJ Sonnar 180mm F2.8:



Finally, notice as a typical Double Gauss lens, such as the Helios 44-4M 58mm F2, hardly suffers from laCA. Nonetheless, these type of lens may suffer from loCA, spherical aberration, coma, astigmatism, distortion, etc.

Helios 44-4M 58mm F2:


Last edited by Gerald on Mon Mar 14, 2016 4:44 pm; edited 1 time in total


PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gerald wrote:
In my experience, virtually all non-symmetric lenses suffer from some lateral chromatic aberration, including almost all wide-angle retrofocus and telephoto lenses. A notable case of lens that is virtually free of lateral chromatic aberration is the normal 50~60mm lens based on the Double Gauss formula.

In my opinion, except perhaps for the last 400x400 pixels at the image corners, lateral chromatic aberration of the Tamron SP 17mm F3.5 is not stronger than other non-symmetric lenses.

I agree with you regarding the lateral chromatic aberration being present in most lenses. My point was not to criticize the Tamron 51B for the amount of LaCA it exhibits, but just to point out that the blue fringes were very visible in the corners of the frame, especially if there are tree leaves on a bright sky (whereas other colors might be less distracting). As I said though, it's very easy to correct these fringes in post processing.

Cheers!

Abbazz


PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice stuff. I have the flektogon the super takumar and and also have a canon FD 20mm. I like them all. I will be picking up a AF minolta at some point. I dream of the Konica 2.8 but that will have to wait. LifesShort: You mention the fill flash with thyristor. Was taht manually accomplished or do you have a way to trigger it with the a7ii? I have several old thyristor flashes I would love to get some use from.


PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jamaeolus wrote:
Nice stuff. I have the flektogon the super takumar and and also have a canon FD 20mm. I like them all. I will be picking up a AF minolta at some point. I dream of the Konica 2.8 but that will have to wait. LifesShort: You mention the fill flash with thyristor. Was taht manually accomplished or do you have a way to trigger it with the a7ii? I have several old thyristor flashes I would love to get some use from.


I manually fired the flash simply because I had to light from an angle to avoid reflections in the windows. However, I use this same flash mounted on my A7II all the time. The flash I used is a Canon 199A. Before using a flash mounted directly to the camera, though, you should check http://www.botzilla.com/photo/strobeVolts.html to make sure the trigger voltage is safe for the camera. Unfortunately, Sony doesn't list a "safe" trigger voltage for the A7II, but it is generally accepted that anything under 12V is safe.

This is all Sony has to say about the trigger voltage (taken from Sony A7II Instruction Manual):

Do not use an external flash with a high voltage flash sync terminal or inverse polarity. This may result in malfunction.

FYI - I also use my Nikon SB-800 on camera with great results. I just set it in AA mode. My Nikon SB-24 works great, as well.


PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Excellent work!
And that is quite a collection!


PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2016 2:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

luisalegria wrote:
Excellent work!
And that is quite a collection!

Thank you, Luis!

Cheers!

Abbazz


PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2016 9:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

luisalegria wrote:
Excellent work!
And that is quite a collection!


+1, very well done and informative
the 20-35mm zoom looks great for the upcoming K-1, but I see it's surprisingly dear


PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2016 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kds315* wrote:
Well done Sebastien!!

I don't have that many, but if I need a wide one, I take my 17mm Tokina

I have no experience with extreme wideangles, but I have a Vivitar 17/3.5, I suppose manufactured by Tokina (serial 37XXXX):



It seems multi coated and in good condition, but I can not say I'm satisfied with it. The flare is difficult to control, vignetting at f/8 and mustache distortion (the small white wall is perfectly straight:



In addition, I warn altered color, low overall sharpness and poor detail:







The last can be seen in full resolution: http://www.dpreview.com/galleries/9073487821/download/3412050
All photos were taken at f/8, without editing, direct JPG from the camera with neutral settings, only resize.

This is what I can reasonably expect of a 17mm or I am seeking another copy?
Happy shots!