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Leica 180/4 Elmar opinions?
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 6:03 am    Post subject: Leica 180/4 Elmar opinions? Reply with quote

Hi all,

I'm after a decent compact telephoto in the 180-200mm range. I already own an excellent 200/2.8 autofocus prime, but I want something more compact so I can travel light. I don't mind dropping a stop of speed and 20mm to make the lens much more compact.

Money is not too much of an issue, since I'm willing to sell my 200/2.8 to fund it.

My first thought was the Voigtlander 180/4 APO Lanthar, but these are now very rare (and I am particular that I must buy one of these in a Pentax mount if I do go this route). I'd *love* this lens though, but it has evaded me thus, despite some pretty hard work searching for one.

So, after a bit more hunting, I've come to the 180/4 Leica Elmar. But I can't find much info on it. Everyone seems to talk about the 180/3.4 apo-telyt. But the Elmar is a half-stop slower which makes it much lighter too.

Long story short, are there any opinions on the 180/4 Elmar that you might share? I'd love the APO Lanthar, but the Elmar might have to do.


PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 9:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Gillbod.

Here are 4 links to the Elmarit R 4/180 :
http://forum.mflenses.com/leica-elmar-r-4-180-bruecker-muehle-t16953,highlight,%2Bleica+%2B180+%2Belmar.html
http://forum.mflenses.com/leica-elmar-r-4-180-t17719,highlight,%2Bleica+%2B180+%2Belmar.html
http://www.foto-bochum.net/Historical-Equipment/Lens-Leitz-Elmar-R-f4180/8341725_Xe3iX#546823852_PeYJr
http://forum.mflenses.com/fs-leica-elmar-r-4-180mm-t29763,highlight,%2Bleica+%2B180+%2Belmar.html
So, I think you can ask Carsten or Rolf about this lens if any specific questions. Smile

Else, if you are not focused on this very lens, I have several questions so that we could advice you well.
On what camera will you use this 200mm ?
What is the AF 2.8/200 lens that you want to sell ?
What do you mean by a lot more compact : which dimensions, weight ?


Last edited by Olivier on Mon Jan 10, 2011 9:49 am; edited 1 time in total


PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 9:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Olivier,

Thanks for the reply.

I'm going to be using it on Pentax DSLRs. I'm pretty happy to go the Leitax route.

Size-wise, i'd like to keep things as small as possible, but I'll place a restriction on the lens being faster than f/4.

The 200/2.8 that I would sell would be Pentax's current 200/2.8 da* (dimensions: 83mm x 134mm, weight: 825 g). With a lens hood attached the size is a heck of a lot larger. I appreciate this is still much smaller than a comparable f/2.8 zoom, but I reckon I can go a step better with regards to size, and still get great optics.

The Elmar (dimensions: 85.5mm x 100mm, weight : 540g) does appear on a first glance to give too much advantage in size (although 3.5cm is significant to me), but it has an integrated hood in there, which significantly brings the bulk down.


PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you Gill,

I added links in my previous post. Smile
It seems to be a very, very good lens.


PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 9:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I love this lens!

It is only one stop slower than an f/2.8 which you hardly realize in normal use since it is absolutely usable wide open at f/4.
And it is so compact for a 180mm lens. It often is the only tele lens (longer than 85mm) that I have in my bag.


PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 10:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks again Olivier, and thanks Carsten (LucisPictor) for the help.

it does look really nice from those images that Olivier has shared.

Lucis, can you give any comments on how much longitudinal chromatic aberration i'd see with the lens?

the bokeh certainly seems smooth for a lens being shot wide open...


Last edited by gillbod on Mon Jan 10, 2011 10:53 am; edited 1 time in total


PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 10:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

gillbod wrote:
thanks again Olivier, and thanks Lucis for the help.

it does look really nice from those images that Olivier has shared.

Lucis, can you give any comments on how much longitudinal chromatic aberration i'd see with the lens?

the bokeh certainly seems smooth for a lens being shot wide open...

Please, thank Carsten (aka Lucispictor) and Rolf for the images. Wink


PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pls use the search function here - there are more pics taken with this lens posted here.

Wink


PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 2:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've never owned the Leica 180/4 but did have a 180/3.4 APO for a period and can comment on it (also own the CV 180). For distant objects at near-infinity or infinity, it excelled. A tad lower contrast and outstanding ability to draw details out of the shadows was it's hallmark, as it was designed for use by the US Navy in naval surveillance. At near-to-medium distances it was ordinary and this is highlighted by the following review (he appears to miss the point that it was optimized for very distant objects):

http://www.slrlensreview.com/web/leica-slr-lenses-133/telephoto-slr-lenses-140/423-leica-apo-telyt-r-180mm-f34-e60-lens-review.html

There is a thread on this site started by 'esox lucius' comparing the Leica to the CV 180. The latter proves in his tests to be the more versatile lens. In Pentax mount, it does tend to come up on eBay with some regularity, priced below the Nikon AIS mount. Until early 2010, Cameraquest (Los Angeles) had one in stock for $900 US but that's long since gone.
For a compact lens in that FL, the only other lens that rivals the CV 180 is the Nikkor 200/4 AIS, a classic yet inexpensive (<$200). The Leica 180/3.4, BTW, is neither a small nor light lens like the CV.


PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 8:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi James, and thanks for your input.

i gather the elmar is a very different beast to the 180/3.4 apo, with the elmar being pretty good close up. the extra bulk of the 180/3.4 as well as its optimisation for longer distances is what is making me look at the elmar and and the voigtlander.

the nikon ais has not occurred to me. i'll do some reading on it and have a look at some sample images. i've never converted from nikon to pentax, but i hope it's not too hard, unless some odd mechanical things get in the way...

thanks again.


PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi gillbod,

I don't have the 180/4, but i do have both the 180/3.4 APO and 180/2.8.

The APO is a stunning lens, it is very compact and light compared to the 2.8. It's performance is also much better than the 2.8 in my opinion.

Here are 2 shots focused at about 4 - 5 mtrs. Both shot wide open

(sorry i couldn't get the images to embed) Embarassed

http://www.flickr.com/photos/rpo83/4000175495/in/set-72157622560682852/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/rpo83/4000942664/in/set-72157622560682852/


PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steve, it seems that Flickr doesn't authorize direct image links anymore.
If you want, you can upload them from your computer to here by using the "upload picture" button. Wink


PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gillbod wrote:
hi James, and thanks for your input.

the nikon ais has not occurred to me. i'll do some reading on it and have a look at some sample images. i've never converted from nikon to pentax, but i hope it's not too hard, unless some odd mechanical things get in the way...

thanks again.


There's a Fotodiox Nikon F-to-Pentax adapter, the only caveat being that it has an element embedded and may degrade the image:

http://www.fotodiox.com/product_info.php?products_id=498


PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Talking about Nikon conversion anyway, two absolutely excellent lenses are the Nikkor 200mm F4 Ai/S and the 180mm F2,8 Ai/S. They especially interesting when looking at the price, and I feel they are good examples of those cases where Takumar, Nikkor, Zuiko etc. are not half a step behind Leica and Zeiss, but equal.


PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only F>K adapter I was able to find (Fotodiox) contains an element. Not certain this is the best route. Leitax-conversion of a Leica R appears to be the better option, in which case the 180/3.4 APO is your best quality, readily available choice for a 180.


PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think so. Adapters with conversion lenses always ruin the quality. I thought maybe there might be some Leitax-style solution where just the back piece of the lens is changed.


PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 9:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

now a voigtlander 180/4 has popped up in a pentax mount on ebay!

1250 USD. seems a bit steep to me, since i saw one sell a month ago on the bay for about 900 USD.

now my head is really racing. i've got the leica at a much more affordable price, or the CV at what i consider to be a bit too steep.


PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 10:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gillbod wrote:
now a voigtlander 180/4 has popped up in a pentax mount on ebay!

1250 USD. seems a bit steep to me, since i saw one sell a month ago on the bay for about 900 USD.

now my head is really racing. i've got the leica at a much more affordable price, or the CV at what i consider to be a bit too steep.


If you're comparing the Leica 4/180 vs. CV 4/180 APO, remember that the CV is optimized for near to medium distances and the benefits of the APO element are startlingly clear when compared to, say, the Nikkor 180/2.8 ED. Also, good lenses will last the test of time. If you're committed to Pentax, remember that Cosina discontinued K mount for the SL II lenses so if they do re-introduce the 180, no Pentax. If you can afford it, the compact CV 180 will serve you well.


PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 12:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have one of these, probably the most expensive lens I own even though it's the cheapest of it's brand!

I find the sharpness and contrast are excellent wide open, colours are superb too.

On my Panasonic G1 I experience a little fringing which has a red colour to it but it's very mild. Of more concern is the axial CA (bokeh CA) which can be quite prominent at times with oof highlight discs tending to have a green ring around them but both of these issues may well be exaggerated by the sensor in my G1

Here's an example:



Like I said many times it seems to happen with a lot with different lenses on my G1 and less so on my 350d so what camera you use with it may play a big role and even with the green rings the smoothness of the bokeh is commendable considering the harsh points of light they originate from.

I will have to do a comparison with it on my 350d when I get an eos adapter but overall I'd say it's a very good lens, it's well made and the sharpness and contrast and bokeh are very good wide open. The only issue I can see is the CA, it might show less on some cameras but it will still be there a little bit so it's worth bearing in mind, I found it to not be too intrusive most of the time and of course under some shooting conditions it probably won't show up at all as with any lens.


PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 11:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi dave,

thanks for the in-detail review.

with regards to the longitudinal ca, i can hardly say i'm surprised. it's only those apo lanthars, and that nikon 200/2 which is prohibitively big (and expensive, but an incredible optic).

i appreciate your time in showing the example shot of the LoCA. it seems a worst-case scenario that you have there. i've seen plenty of those sorts of highlights from my old 85/1.4. they don't show up that often.

i think i should give up my dream of chasing a true apo lens for the moment. it seems there are a ton of fantastic lenses there—i'm not seeing the wood through the trees.


PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 1:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It certainly a torture test for the lens however I feel I must add that I tried a lowly Komine/Vivitar 200mm F/3.5 and it performed slightly better on the same subject. The Komine lacks the wide open contrast and flares slightly more but both types of CA are less severe and this lens cost maybe 1/15th what the elmar is worth.

Another lens I tried on the same subject that easily bested both of them for LoCa and regular CA was my budget Canon EF-S 55-250mm but this modern lens has special coatings optimized for digital sensors which might explain a lot.


The Leitz is beautifully made but I find on my G1 at least there are better lenses to be had for substantially less money.

I too lust after a truly APO lens, the one's you mentioned are great examples though beyond my reach by a long way. Another lens I would like to try is the bigger brother to the Elmar, the LEITZ 180mm f3.4 APO-TELYT-R.

On different sensors the Elmar may well perform better and when used in situations that don't highlight the weakness it is a fine lens indeed but it just doesn't seem to be worth the price it commands, perhaps a case of paying for the name? it's cheap compared to other leica/leitz optics but still significantly more than some more common lenses that seems to out perform it. The lens was never designed to work with a digital sensor so it may be an unfair criticism but the reality for me is how well any given lens works on my G1 so that's how I judge them.

Here is a full size unmodified original to give you better insight and I stress again that while this is a tough test for a lens I have many less expensive optics that fare better under similar conditions so only so much can be blamed on the subject alone.

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5244/5382976296_7611f59b1d_o.jpg


PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 9:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

in spite of the LoCA in the picture, the bokeh is looking smooth for wide open. i suppose i should demand that of a lens which doesn't open so wide, since spherical aberration should be easier to control with a narrow aperture.

the thing about other long lenses is that they all tend to be so big. it's the elmar's built in hood and compact dimensions that attract me.

but you're right, perhaps other options are best. if i'm going to compromise, i might as well go cheaper with the pentax 150/3.5 or the 200/4.


PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The bokeh is indeed nice and smooth and what you say about the dimensions is very true. I wanted to like this lens a lot but I really thought I would be able to take a photo of a white horse without having a red fringe around it, I found that disappointing considering I have cheaper and less respected lenses that are as good or better in that regard. Few are as well put together as the leitz though.

I keep meaning to do a shootout of my lenses for CA.

The next time I use the lens I will post some photos to hopefully demonstrate what it can do in circumstances that it is more comfortable in.


PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 5:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another CV 180 Pentax mount has appeared on eBay with open bidding:

http://cgi.ebay.com/VOIGTLANDER-180MM-F4-PKA-PENTAX-HARD-FIND-/140503627990?pt=Camera_Lenses&hash=item20b6ab38d6


PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 12:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

fatdeeman wrote:
The next time I use the lens I will post some photos to hopefully demonstrate what it can do in circumstances that it is more comfortable in.