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BRunner
Joined: 29 Jul 2009 Posts: 705 Location: Czech Republic
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Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 10:45 am Post subject: Leica APO-Macro-Elmarit-R 2.8/100mm f5.6 vs. f2.8 on 5DmkII |
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BRunner wrote:
Yesterday I did some photos in local Aero oldtimers museum. I shoot few photos with AME and this one was done on tripod, so I took one wide-open and one at f5.6 just for comparison. No PP, only conversion from RAW in DPP. Color style Neutral, Contrast -1, Saturation -1, Unsharp mask 1,10,1. What to say? This lens is flawless!
f2.8 and f5.6
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Orio
Joined: 24 Feb 2007 Posts: 29545 Location: West Emilia
Expire: 2012-12-04
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Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 11:32 am Post subject: |
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Orio wrote:
Don't know what to say, certainly the Apo performance is flawless, and that means a lot when photographing products that have metal parts.
But if I have to say my honest word, I'd say that I would expect something more from an Apo Leica lens: some more sparkle, some more micro-contrast and "presence" of the objects.
I'd have to say honestly that what I have seen from the Voigtlaender Apo-Lanthar 125mm with similar subjects looks more convincing to me. Of course, that could also be fault of the lighting conditions.
I also prefer the type of performance of the Makro-Planars aesthetically, even if I reckon that being non-Apo, they would fall short in the fringing department. _________________ Orio, Administrator
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BRunner
Joined: 29 Jul 2009 Posts: 705 Location: Czech Republic
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Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 12:03 pm Post subject: |
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BRunner wrote:
This is probably due to my very neutral standard camera settings. Here is very slightly adjusted f5.6 version. Again DPP, Color style Neutral, Contrast 0, Saturation 0, Shadows -1, Unsharp mask 2,10,1.
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Orio
Joined: 24 Feb 2007 Posts: 29545 Location: West Emilia
Expire: 2012-12-04
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Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 12:21 pm Post subject: |
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Orio wrote:
Do you have other photos taken with the lens, in different lighting?
Maybe it's the lighting in the room that does not create depth. _________________ Orio, Administrator
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BRunner
Joined: 29 Jul 2009 Posts: 705 Location: Czech Republic
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Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 1:08 pm Post subject: |
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BRunner wrote:
I don't had the opportunity to compare AME directly with Makro-Planar or Lanthar 125 yet. I own only CZ Sonnar 2.8/85 (QBM) and Lanthar 90 SLII.
CZ Sonnar has better micro contrast than AME in center but it's worse in all other areas on FF (vignetting, CA, field and corner sharpness). If Makro-Planar can keep this level of performance over entire 35mm field, it must be fantastic.
On the other side, AME was computed around 1980 and more than 20 years later, Zeiss (and other manufacturers too) still isn't able to reach it's level of CA correction :-/
Lanthar 90 SLII is comparable to AME. It has even slightly deeper blacks (result of cooperation with Zeiss?), but correction of CAs isn't on AME level too.
But I agree, that at half or third the price of AME, for all practical purposes, the Lanthar can fully replace it.
I don't have comparable photos in different lighting with AME. I don't used it too often outside yet - it's little bit too heavy and slow focus in comparison to my other lenses.
Here is same car, with Distagon 2.8/25 ZF @f5.6 or f8. I think that both lenses perfectly match in terms of color rendering. Lighting was only dull indirect daylight.
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Orio
Joined: 24 Feb 2007 Posts: 29545 Location: West Emilia
Expire: 2012-12-04
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Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 1:53 pm Post subject: |
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Orio wrote:
BRunner wrote: |
I don't had the opportunity to compare AME directly with Makro-Planar or Lanthar 125 yet. I own only CZ Sonnar 2.8/85 (QBM) and Lanthar 90 SLII. |
I also don't have the Apo-Lanthar 125mm (sadly). Not being a macro shooter at all, I could not justify the expense.
But from what I can see from photos of other people, it sets the standard of today for 100mm (approx.) macro lenses.
Quote: |
CZ Sonnar has better micro contrast than AME in center but it's worse in all other areas on FF (vignetting, CA, field and corner sharpness). |
This is normal, it's not APO and it's not a macro lens. It's still a damn good lens though. A tele lens so sharp wide open for just 200 Euros (approx) is almost unique.
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If Makro-Planar can keep this level of performance over entire 35mm field, it must be fantastic. |
The 100mm does - I speak of the Contax version, I never tried the new Z version. The Contax M-P 100 has perfect planarity over the whole frame, and an extremely low distortion.
It's the ideal lens for reproduction of regular edged objects such as paintings, documents, etc.
Of course, it's not completely free from fringing, because it's not an APO, but the fringing is very low, as you can guess from the MTF curves, so fringing does not become a problem except
in extreme situations, for which a photographer should invest in an APO Macro lens anyway.
The 60mm version of the M-P has a visible resolution fall past the centre, that does not go away with stopping down (see MTF), which makes it not a good choice for documents,
in fact people use it mostly for insects, flowers etc. where centre resolution and contrast are what matter most.
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On the other side, AME was computed around 1980 and more than 20 years later, Zeiss (and other manufacturers too) still isn't able to reach it's level of CA correction :-/ |
Yes... Zeiss never made an APO macro lens (at least, that I know of).
It was their choice for the Z series to make a 100mm lens that could work both as a 1:2 macro and as a portrait tele, and for this reason they stayed with a spherical design.
In my opinion, that's been a mistake, because as macro, it's a lot weaker than the Apo-Lanthar 125, and as portrait lens, is not as effective as the 1.4/85 Planar.
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Lanthar 90 SLII is comparable to AME. It has even slightly deeper blacks (result of cooperation with Zeiss?), but correction of CAs isn't on AME level too. |
Yes, I have the first version, and APO name is a bit usurped, as the lens does show fringing in critical conditions. On the other hand, I do not consider that lens as a real macro lens,
more as a tele lens with close focus capability. The excellent sharpness performance at f/5.6 is what makes the lens worth in my opinion,
plus the fact that it performs equally well at infinity as it does at portrait distance, which is really uncommon for a lens without a floating element.
Quote: |
But I agree, that at half or third the price of AME, for all practical purposes, the Lanthar can fully replace it. |
I think you are misunderstanding me here, I compared with the Apo-Lanthar 125mm, not with the 90mm.
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I don't have comparable photos in different lighting with AME. I don't used it too often outside yet - it's little bit too heavy and slow focus in comparison to my other lenses. |
No problem, it was just my curiosity. _________________ Orio, Administrator
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Orio
Joined: 24 Feb 2007 Posts: 29545 Location: West Emilia
Expire: 2012-12-04
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Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 2:51 pm Post subject: |
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Orio wrote:
Looking at the histograms of the f/5.6 image from the A-M-E and of the Distagon 25 ZF tells something about the different character of the two lenses:
The Mean and Median values of the histogram show that the Distagon lens (on the right) recorded a much higher intensity of middle tones.
This is also visible in the diagram, where there is a significant peak in the middle area, that is almost as rich as the bottom area.
The highlights instead do not differ much from the A-M-E histogram.
The A-M-E histogram shows a lot of dark tones, with clipping in all three channels (the Distagon image shows clipping only in the blue channel),
but afterwards, the histogram falls quite low and there stays until 2/3rds of the run, where there is a small, double peak.
The highlights, as noted, are similar to the Distagon image (except for the red channel).
This weakness of the middle tones is confirmed by the standard deviation value, which is higher in the A-M-E lens
(because the jump from the low tones to the high tones is steeper, due to weaker middle tones).
Of course the images are different, so the comparison is somehow limited, however there are middle tones in the frame of the A-M-E image also,
which should have shown not as wide as in the Distagon image (where you also have the red car), but certainly just as high, even if narrower -
which does not happen, because the A-M-E lens does not boost the middle tones (what we usually refer to as "clarity") as the Distagon lens does.
Of course this is not a defect, rather a different character of the lens. With other subjects, more subtle in shadings (such as flowers, or a human face),
the Leica lens will probably offer a better performance than the Distagon. _________________ Orio, Administrator
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poilu
Joined: 26 Aug 2007 Posts: 10471 Location: Greece
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Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 3:56 pm Post subject: |
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poilu wrote:
congrats! this is the best 100mm macro
I am surprised by the amount of purple fringe on all the metallic surfaces at f2.8, at f5.6 they are clean
green is present in the bokeh even at f5.6 but at a level certainly acceptable
sharpness is difficult to evaluate as the dof is small, but it should not be a problem with this lens _________________ T* |
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Orio
Joined: 24 Feb 2007 Posts: 29545 Location: West Emilia
Expire: 2012-12-04
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Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 4:33 pm Post subject: |
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Orio wrote:
poilu wrote: |
congrats! this is the best 100mm macro
I am surprised by the amount of purple fringe on all the metallic surfaces at f2.8, at f5.6 they are clean
green is present in the bokeh even at f5.6 but at a level certainly acceptable |
I can not see the purple.
I see some green, but only at f/2.8 _________________ Orio, Administrator
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poilu
Joined: 26 Aug 2007 Posts: 10471 Location: Greece
Expire: 2019-08-29
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Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 5:06 pm Post subject: |
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poilu wrote:
Orio wrote: |
poilu wrote: |
congrats! this is the best 100mm macro
I am surprised by the amount of purple fringe on all the metallic surfaces at f2.8, at f5.6 they are clean
green is present in the bokeh even at f5.6 but at a level certainly acceptable |
I can not see the purple.
I see some green, but only at f/2.8 |
it is my 24" wide color lcd
usually most aberrations are not visible on my laptop but on the big screen everything show up _________________ T* |
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BRunner
Joined: 29 Jul 2009 Posts: 705 Location: Czech Republic
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Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 6:44 pm Post subject: |
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BRunner wrote:
Yes, I can confirm, that in truly extreme situations AME shows some purple fringing wide-open (i don't know if this is caused by lens alone or sensor blooming). But other lenses in same situation shows massive amount of CA (Tamron 90, Pentax FA 100). Stopping down to f4 solves this problem. There is no perfect lens unfortunately, only better and worse corrected. I have confirmed from no-x, that even APO Lanthar 125 in some situations suffer from bokeh fringing. But still it's nothing to worry about.
My best lens regarding CA WO is surprisingly APO-TELYT-R 3.4/180. I didn't get any photo yet, with even trace of purple color. _________________ .: APO-Maniac :. |
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jjphoto
Joined: 17 Mar 2009 Posts: 406
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Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 8:39 pm Post subject: |
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jjphoto wrote:
Orio wrote: |
Looking at the histograms of the f/5.6 image from the A-M-E and of the Distagon 25 ZF tells something about the different character of the two lenses:
[snip]
The Mean and Median values of the histogram show that the Distagon lens (on the right) recorded a much higher intensity of middle tones.
This is also visible in the diagram, where there is a significant peak in the middle area, that is almost as rich as the bottom area.
The highlights instead do not differ much from the A-M-E histogram.
The A-M-E histogram shows a lot of dark tones, with clipping in all three channels (the Distagon image shows clipping only in the blue channel),
but afterwards, the histogram falls quite low and there stays until 2/3rds of the run, where there is a small, double peak.
The highlights, as noted, are similar to the Distagon image (except for the red channel).
This weakness of the middle tones is confirmed by the standard deviation value, which is higher in the A-M-E lens
(because the jump from the low tones to the high tones is steeper, due to weaker middle tones).
Of course the images are different, so the comparison is somehow limited, however there are middle tones in the frame of the A-M-E image also,
which should have shown not as wide as in the Distagon image (where you also have the red car), but certainly just as high, even if narrower -
which does not happen, because the A-M-E lens does not boost the middle tones (what we usually refer to as "clarity") as the Distagon lens does.
Of course this is not a defect, rather a different character of the lens. With other subjects, more subtle in shadings (such as flowers, or a human face),
the Leica lens will probably offer a better performance than the Distagon. |
Sorry, but comparing histograms from completely different images makes no sense to me.
JJ |
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jjphoto
Joined: 17 Mar 2009 Posts: 406
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Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 8:48 pm Post subject: |
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jjphoto wrote:
I believe some zooms (such as the latest Canon 70-200/2.8 II) are better corrected for spherochromatism than many primes, but don't hold me to that.
Last edited by jjphoto on Sun Mar 17, 2013 11:54 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Himself
Joined: 01 Mar 2007 Posts: 3214 Location: Montreal
Expire: 2013-05-30
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Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 8:58 pm Post subject: Re: Leica APO-Macro-Elmarit-R 2.8/100mm f5.6 vs. f2.8 on 5Dm |
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Himself wrote:
BRunner wrote: |
This lens is flawless! |
I have to contradict you.
It's not flawless because it's expensive. _________________ Moderator Himself |
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poilu
Joined: 26 Aug 2007 Posts: 10471 Location: Greece
Expire: 2019-08-29
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Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 9:22 pm Post subject: |
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poilu wrote:
jjphoto wrote: |
APO lenses are only APO at the plane of focus where all colours are focused at the same point |
because some cannot see the purple I have desaturated colors and saturated magenta to make it appear more easily
I also put circle for those with poor lcd (on my laptop it is still invisible)
you can see that purple fringing appear on the focused plane
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Himself
Joined: 01 Mar 2007 Posts: 3214 Location: Montreal
Expire: 2013-05-30
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Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 12:21 am Post subject: |
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Himself wrote:
Poilu is right. There is a purple-ish shadow ( I wouldn't call it purple) barely visible.
Poilu you're a purpleish nit picker.
Meself with an IPS panel. _________________ Moderator Himself |
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my_photography
Joined: 03 Nov 2008 Posts: 2772 Location: Pearl of the Orient
Expire: 2016-12-25
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Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 3:09 am Post subject: |
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my_photography wrote:
Poilu, you really have good eyes for this purple thing. Thanks for the extra effort you put in to make it obvious for people like me. _________________
Zeiss: CJZ Flektogon 20/2.8, CJZ Flektogon 20/4, , CJZ Pentacon 29/2.8, CJZ Flektogon 35/2.4, CJZ Pancolar 50/1.8, Tessar 50/2.8, Biotar 7.5cm/1.5, CJZ Pancolar 80/1.8, CJZ Sonnar 135/3.5, CJZ Pentacon 135/2.8 CJZ Sonnar 200/2.8
Other Germany: Meyer Primoplan 50/1.8, Meyer Trioplan 100/2.8
Takumar: SMC 50/1.4 Super Tak 55/2, Super Tak 85/1.9, S-M-C 135/3.5, Super Tak 150/4
Russian: Zenith 16/2.8, Mir-24M 2/35, Volna-9 50/2.8, Helios 44M (58/2), Helios 44M-3 MC (58/2), Helios 40 (85/1.5), Tair 11A (135/2.8 )
Others: Sears 28/2.8, Sankor 35/2.8, Enna M�nchen Tele-Ennalyt 135/3.5
Zoom Sigma Zoom 28-85/3.5-4.5
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BRunner
Joined: 29 Jul 2009 Posts: 705 Location: Czech Republic
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Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 6:07 am Post subject: |
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BRunner wrote:
Himself wrote: |
I have to contradict you.
It's not flawless because it's expensive. |
In comparison to APO Lanthar 125 it's still relatively cheap. I bought mine in Switzerland in local shop at almost half the price of Lanthar. Unfortunately on eBay the prices starting to rise above 1000€. But this weekend one was sold for 750€ only.
poilu wrote: |
I also put circle for those with poor lcd (on my laptop it is still invisible)you can see that purple fringing appear on the focused plane |
Actually this part is slightly before focus plane. Focus plane is on "Aero" inscription. _________________ .: APO-Maniac :. |
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Orio
Joined: 24 Feb 2007 Posts: 29545 Location: West Emilia
Expire: 2012-12-04
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Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 10:11 am Post subject: |
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Orio wrote:
750 Euros? That's really a fantastic price.
In the used camera fairs here in Italy for 750 Euros you can only get a Macro-Elmar-R 100.
Apo-Macro-Elmarits are always above the 1k. _________________ Orio, Administrator
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Ferrania film is reborn! http://www.filmferrania.it/
Support the Ornano film chemicals company and help them survive!
http://forum.mflenses.com/ornano-chemical-products-t55525.html |
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AhamB
Joined: 22 Jun 2008 Posts: 733 Location: Germany
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Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 1:02 pm Post subject: |
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AhamB wrote:
Orio wrote: |
Yes... Zeiss never made an APO macro lens (at least, that I know of). |
The Contax 645 Apo-Makro-Planar 120/4 is the only one that I know of. It can be used on Canon with the NAM-1 adapter when you have that converted by Conurus.
Here's a comparison between the Leica AME, Zeiss ZE MP100/2 and Voigtländer APO-Lanthar 125/2.5: http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1025651/0#9747210
In my opinion, the Leica has the best color but slightly less smooth bokeh than the Zeiss. Zeiss has 2nd best color for me. Voigtländer has more blurring capacity because of the longer FL. The differences in sharpness aren't even interesting really. |
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BRunner
Joined: 29 Jul 2009 Posts: 705 Location: Czech Republic
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Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 2:24 pm Post subject: |
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BRunner wrote:
AhamB wrote: |
Here's a comparison between the Leica AME, Zeiss ZE MP100/2 and Voigtländer APO-Lanthar 125/2.5: http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1025651/0#9747210
In my opinion, the Leica has the best color but slightly less smooth bokeh than the Zeiss. Zeiss has 2nd best color for me. Voigtländer has more blurring capacity because of the longer FL. The differences in sharpness aren't even interesting really. |
Thank you for this interesting comparison. The colors of AME at f11 trully stands out!
But it looks to me, that Zeiss shows slightly more micro contrast at wider apertures. But hard to tell from web sized images.
Is possible to obtain full sized files of this test from you? Or even better, original RAW files to play with them? _________________ .: APO-Maniac :. |
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AhamB
Joined: 22 Jun 2008 Posts: 733 Location: Germany
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Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 3:57 pm Post subject: |
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AhamB wrote:
BRunner wrote: |
Is possible to obtain full sized files of this test from you? Or even better, original RAW files to play with them? |
It's not my comparison, I just pointed to it. You can ask the poster on FM. You can see my comments in that thread, under the same username (AhamB). |
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