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APO-Telyt-R 180/3.4 vs. APO-Lanthar 180/4
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Which lens is the APO-Telyt-R 180/3.4?
Lens A) is APO-Telyt-R 180/3.4
38%
 38%  [ 5 ]
Lens B) is APO-Telyt-R 180/3.4
61%
 61%  [ 8 ]
Total Votes : 13

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Orio




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PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

james wrote:
Orio's suggestion that a third shot featuring a more mundane lens @ 180mm may also help put things into perspective is a great idea.


It was not my suggestion.
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james



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My apology, Orio. It was "cheve" who suggested it.
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Esox lucius



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Again, f/5.6 and same white balance, same settings, same post-processing, same sharpening etc. etc.

LENS A 20m center



LENS B 20m center



LENS A 4m bokeh uncropped



LENS B 4m bokeh uncropped


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Nikon DSLR: D4, D800, Nikon D3, D70
Nikon SLR: Nikon F100, Nikon FM2n
Nikkor MF: 20/2.8 Ai-S, 24/2 Ai-S, 24/2.8 Ai-S, 28/2 Ai-S, 28/2.8 Ai-S, 35/1.4 AIS, 35/2 Ai-S, 45/2.8 GN, 50/1.2 Ai, 50/1.2 Ai-S, 50/1.4 Ai, 50/1.4 Ai-S, 50/1.8 AI-S "long", 50/1.8 AI-S "short", 55/1.2 Ai, 85/1.4 Ai-S, 85/1.8H, 105/2.5 Ai, 135/2.8Q, 135/3.5 Ai, 180/2.8 Ai-S ED
Nikkor AF/AF-S FX: 14-24/2.8G, 16/2.8D Fisheye, 16-35/4G VR, 17-35/2.8D, 24/1.4G, 24/3.5D PC-E, 24/2.8D, 24-70/2.8G, 28/1.4D, 28/1.8G, 35/1.4G, 35/2D, 50/1.4D, 50/1.4G, 50/1.8G, 60/2.8 Micro, 60/2.8G Micro, 70-200/2.8G VR, 70-200/2.8G VR II, 80-400/4.5-5.6D VR, 85/1.4G, 85/2.8D PC-E Micro, 105/2D DC, 105/2.8G VR Micro, 135/2D DC, 200/2G VR, 200-400/4G VR, 300/2.8G VR, 300/4D ED, 400/2.8G VR, 800/5.6E VR
Nikkor AF/AF-S DX: 10.5/2.8G Fisheye, 12-24/4G, 18-70/3.5-4.5G
Topcor: Auto-Topcor 58/1.4,
Voigtländer SL: 40/2 Ultron, 58/1.4 Nokton, 75/2.5 Color-Heliar, 90/3.5 APO-Lanthar, 125/2.5 APO-Lanthar, 180/4 APO-Lanthar
Zeiss ZF: Planar T* 85/1.4 ZF
M42 SLR: Voigtländer Bessaflex TM
M42: Flektogon 20/4, Flektogon 35/2.4, Tessar 50/2.8 T, Super-Takumar 55/1.8, Biotar 58/2 T, Pentacon 135/2.8, Sonnar 135/3.5
Medium format: several Zeiss Super Ikonta 532/16 Opton-Tessar 80mm f/2.8, Zeiss Ikonta 524/16 Opton-Tessar 75mm f/3.5
Leica: R7, M4, Super-Angulon-R 4/21, Elmarit-R 2.8/28, Summicron-R 2/35, Summicron-M 2/35, Summicron-M 2/50, Elmarit-R 2,8/180
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Esox lucius



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BACKGROUND
I already own the 180/4 APO-Lanthar and also have access to a 2nd copy of the same lens. In addition, I was offered the 180/3.4 APO-Telyt-R for purchase, and naturally I was interested as it has a reputation that is very high.

WHY ALL THIS TROUBLE?
Because I can. Because I have the lenses on my table.

WHICH LENS IS WHICH?
Lens A is APO-Lanthar. Lens B is APO-Telyt-R.

IN FAVOUR OF THE APO-Telyt-R
It has a slightly stiffer focusing feel which I find good. It is better geared for focusing near infinity, APO-Lanthar is more "touchy" to focus changes near the infinity mark. APO-Telyt extends slightly less than the APO-Lanthar when focusing towards MFD.

IN FAVOUR OF THE APO-Lanthar
APO-Lanthar is more contrasty throughout the aperture range. The light greenish overcast from the APO-Telyt-R is not appealing to me. Snow here has melted now but I imagine shooting snow with the APO-Telyt is a pain in the arse. The APO-Lanthar vignettes slightly less at f/5.6 and wide open. The aperture control is also more precise: even when not Leitax converted the aperture ring and click-stops of the APO-Telyt-R feel flimsy compared to the precise APO-Lanthar. The APO-Lanthar weighs slightly less and has a detachable lens hood, making it more compact in size. The diaphragm is also more rounded at smaller apertures, which affects only OoF highlight shape.

Detail?

At infinity it is a very close call, on my Eizo Coloredge CG222W I see a mathematical edge to the APO-Lanthar, which my eyes and brain probably interpret this way due to better contrast and more true colors.

At medium focusing distance (50m), APO-Lanthar pulls a slight lead. At 20m the APO-Lanthar is clearly better than the APO-Telyt-R.

At close focusing distance (<5m) I did not test detail, because given the different MFD (2.5m vs. 1.2m) and magnification ratio I did not find it meaningful to compare apples and oranges.

Bokeh is great on both lenses.

Both lenses are exceptional, but given what I see in the photos I've taken during two days I find it very hard to justify myself purchasing the more expensive Leica when it isn't better than the Voigtländer.

PURE SPECULATION
Since the APO-Telyt-R was designed for marine surveillance and in its time probably mostly used in conjunction with B/W film, the green cast is perhaps intentional? On B/W film it would make skies and grey warships slightly more contrasty, painting a better silhouette.

USER-INDUCED ERRORS
This is what I thought as well, once I started pixel-peeping the first shots. Which is why I yesterday changed methodology, to rule out focusing errors. I used Live View at 100% to confirm correct focus, then I shot 5-10 frames per setting and always shuffled and re-acquired focus again. Statistically, I saw about a 15-20% misfocus rate. It means that I could discard about 1 in 5 or 6 frames because another frame in the same sequence had better detail in the intended focus spot.

Most of the shots I did with tripod, sandbag & exposure delay mode (to rule out mirror slap), of the samples posted only the wooden cross is hand-held (at 1/500s).

SAMPLE VARIATION, DUD COPY
Anything is possible of course, but this is a Leica lens (not a Sigma). I am not going to go through all this nerdwork again to find out for that my two 180/4 APO-Lanthars are better than two 180/3.4 APO-Telyt-R's
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Nikon DSLR: D4, D800, Nikon D3, D70
Nikon SLR: Nikon F100, Nikon FM2n
Nikkor MF: 20/2.8 Ai-S, 24/2 Ai-S, 24/2.8 Ai-S, 28/2 Ai-S, 28/2.8 Ai-S, 35/1.4 AIS, 35/2 Ai-S, 45/2.8 GN, 50/1.2 Ai, 50/1.2 Ai-S, 50/1.4 Ai, 50/1.4 Ai-S, 50/1.8 AI-S "long", 50/1.8 AI-S "short", 55/1.2 Ai, 85/1.4 Ai-S, 85/1.8H, 105/2.5 Ai, 135/2.8Q, 135/3.5 Ai, 180/2.8 Ai-S ED
Nikkor AF/AF-S FX: 14-24/2.8G, 16/2.8D Fisheye, 16-35/4G VR, 17-35/2.8D, 24/1.4G, 24/3.5D PC-E, 24/2.8D, 24-70/2.8G, 28/1.4D, 28/1.8G, 35/1.4G, 35/2D, 50/1.4D, 50/1.4G, 50/1.8G, 60/2.8 Micro, 60/2.8G Micro, 70-200/2.8G VR, 70-200/2.8G VR II, 80-400/4.5-5.6D VR, 85/1.4G, 85/2.8D PC-E Micro, 105/2D DC, 105/2.8G VR Micro, 135/2D DC, 200/2G VR, 200-400/4G VR, 300/2.8G VR, 300/4D ED, 400/2.8G VR, 800/5.6E VR
Nikkor AF/AF-S DX: 10.5/2.8G Fisheye, 12-24/4G, 18-70/3.5-4.5G
Topcor: Auto-Topcor 58/1.4,
Voigtländer SL: 40/2 Ultron, 58/1.4 Nokton, 75/2.5 Color-Heliar, 90/3.5 APO-Lanthar, 125/2.5 APO-Lanthar, 180/4 APO-Lanthar
Zeiss ZF: Planar T* 85/1.4 ZF
M42 SLR: Voigtländer Bessaflex TM
M42: Flektogon 20/4, Flektogon 35/2.4, Tessar 50/2.8 T, Super-Takumar 55/1.8, Biotar 58/2 T, Pentacon 135/2.8, Sonnar 135/3.5
Medium format: several Zeiss Super Ikonta 532/16 Opton-Tessar 80mm f/2.8, Zeiss Ikonta 524/16 Opton-Tessar 75mm f/3.5
Leica: R7, M4, Super-Angulon-R 4/21, Elmarit-R 2.8/28, Summicron-R 2/35, Summicron-M 2/35, Summicron-M 2/50, Elmarit-R 2,8/180


Last edited by Esox lucius on Sat Apr 24, 2010 9:52 am; edited 4 times in total
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Orio




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PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Esox lucius wrote:

WHICH LENS IS WHICH?
Lens A is APO-Lanthar. Lens B is APO-Telyt-R.


he-hee! Very Happy
I never guessed a lens blind test wrong on this site, and this means more than three years Smile
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A G Photography



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Orio wrote:
Esox lucius wrote:

WHICH LENS IS WHICH?
Lens A is APO-Lanthar. Lens B is APO-Telyt-R.


he-hee! Very Happy
I never guessed a lens blind test wrong on this site, and this means more than three years Smile


Hmmm... I could put up something really hard for you then Wink
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Attila



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Orio wrote:
Esox lucius wrote:

WHICH LENS IS WHICH?
Lens A is APO-Lanthar. Lens B is APO-Telyt-R.


he-hee! Very Happy
I never guessed a lens blind test wrong on this site, and this means more than three years Smile


Laughing Laughing Nice!

I never guessed well any Wink
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james



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Damn, I wish you ran the series before I bought the Leica 180/3.4 a week ago.... I was also intrigued with the reputation of the optic. I guess i can shoot it B&W if the greenish cast is there purposefully to increase contrast as Vilhelm theorized or sell it with a Leitax conversion once it arrives.

Decision, decisions...


Last edited by james on Fri Apr 23, 2010 11:53 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Orio




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PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 10:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A G Photography wrote:
Orio wrote:
Esox lucius wrote:

WHICH LENS IS WHICH?
Lens A is APO-Lanthar. Lens B is APO-Telyt-R.


he-hee! Very Happy
I never guessed a lens blind test wrong on this site, and this means more than three years Smile


Hmmm... I could put up something really hard for you then Wink


You would cheat, I know Razz
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Abbazz



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PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 1:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Esox lucius wrote:
Lens A is APO-Lanthar. Lens B is APO-Telyt-R.

Thanks Vilhelm for the interesting comparative review. It confirms that the Apo Lanthar is really an outstanding lens, as the Leica lens is certainly no slouch either!

Cheers!

Abbazz
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Esox lucius



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PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 6:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are all most welcome. I'm happy to share, though main interest here was purely personal.

james wrote:
Damn, I wish you ran the series before I bought the Leica 180/3.4 a week ago.... I was also intrigued with the reputation of the optic. I guess i can shoot it B&W if the greenish cast is there purposefully to increase contrast as Vilhelm theorized or sell it with a Leitax conversion once it arrives


Someone who owns two sportscars will likely use the other for racetrack weekends and the other he will enjoy on normal roads, as it's too rare to replace.

I think I am not the only one interested in finding out whether the color cast is there on your APO-Telyt-R as well, when you compare skyline shots taken at identical white balance.
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Nikon DSLR: D4, D800, Nikon D3, D70
Nikon SLR: Nikon F100, Nikon FM2n
Nikkor MF: 20/2.8 Ai-S, 24/2 Ai-S, 24/2.8 Ai-S, 28/2 Ai-S, 28/2.8 Ai-S, 35/1.4 AIS, 35/2 Ai-S, 45/2.8 GN, 50/1.2 Ai, 50/1.2 Ai-S, 50/1.4 Ai, 50/1.4 Ai-S, 50/1.8 AI-S "long", 50/1.8 AI-S "short", 55/1.2 Ai, 85/1.4 Ai-S, 85/1.8H, 105/2.5 Ai, 135/2.8Q, 135/3.5 Ai, 180/2.8 Ai-S ED
Nikkor AF/AF-S FX: 14-24/2.8G, 16/2.8D Fisheye, 16-35/4G VR, 17-35/2.8D, 24/1.4G, 24/3.5D PC-E, 24/2.8D, 24-70/2.8G, 28/1.4D, 28/1.8G, 35/1.4G, 35/2D, 50/1.4D, 50/1.4G, 50/1.8G, 60/2.8 Micro, 60/2.8G Micro, 70-200/2.8G VR, 70-200/2.8G VR II, 80-400/4.5-5.6D VR, 85/1.4G, 85/2.8D PC-E Micro, 105/2D DC, 105/2.8G VR Micro, 135/2D DC, 200/2G VR, 200-400/4G VR, 300/2.8G VR, 300/4D ED, 400/2.8G VR, 800/5.6E VR
Nikkor AF/AF-S DX: 10.5/2.8G Fisheye, 12-24/4G, 18-70/3.5-4.5G
Topcor: Auto-Topcor 58/1.4,
Voigtländer SL: 40/2 Ultron, 58/1.4 Nokton, 75/2.5 Color-Heliar, 90/3.5 APO-Lanthar, 125/2.5 APO-Lanthar, 180/4 APO-Lanthar
Zeiss ZF: Planar T* 85/1.4 ZF
M42 SLR: Voigtländer Bessaflex TM
M42: Flektogon 20/4, Flektogon 35/2.4, Tessar 50/2.8 T, Super-Takumar 55/1.8, Biotar 58/2 T, Pentacon 135/2.8, Sonnar 135/3.5
Medium format: several Zeiss Super Ikonta 532/16 Opton-Tessar 80mm f/2.8, Zeiss Ikonta 524/16 Opton-Tessar 75mm f/3.5
Leica: R7, M4, Super-Angulon-R 4/21, Elmarit-R 2.8/28, Summicron-R 2/35, Summicron-M 2/35, Summicron-M 2/50, Elmarit-R 2,8/180
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BRunner



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PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My quick and dirty comparison, Leica has definitely some green cast. Both images same exposure times and same white balance (no AWB) and at f5.6. First Lanthar, second APO-Telyt. Just plain JPEGs from camera, no sharpness comparison.

APO-Lanthar


APO-Telyt


And maybe this are just the Leica colors. Two 135s, same settings as with both APOs above:
Leica Elmarit-R 2.8/135

CZJ Sonnar 3.5/135 MC which is, at least on my Eizo, closest to reality.


APO-Lanthar

APO-Telyt


BUT, looks like Leica is little bit more "APO" than Lanthar. And slightly longer.
Lanthar left, Telyt right
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Esox lucius



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PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very valuable information, thank you for adding! So that's with a Samsung GX-20 and 1.5x crop factor? It explains the lack of vignetting.

Unlike the 125/2.5, my 180/4 APO-Lanthars will show in extreme situations (shiny metal like in your pic) a hint of CA towards the corners, amount however is nowhere near a normal lens - perhaps 0.1-0.2 pixels. RAW conversion software takes care of it, but it shows in unprocessed images.

I don't use UV filters with it because I've noticed that UV filters add various aberrations to images, and they eat detail.
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Nikon DSLR: D4, D800, Nikon D3, D70
Nikon SLR: Nikon F100, Nikon FM2n
Nikkor MF: 20/2.8 Ai-S, 24/2 Ai-S, 24/2.8 Ai-S, 28/2 Ai-S, 28/2.8 Ai-S, 35/1.4 AIS, 35/2 Ai-S, 45/2.8 GN, 50/1.2 Ai, 50/1.2 Ai-S, 50/1.4 Ai, 50/1.4 Ai-S, 50/1.8 AI-S "long", 50/1.8 AI-S "short", 55/1.2 Ai, 85/1.4 Ai-S, 85/1.8H, 105/2.5 Ai, 135/2.8Q, 135/3.5 Ai, 180/2.8 Ai-S ED
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Topcor: Auto-Topcor 58/1.4,
Voigtländer SL: 40/2 Ultron, 58/1.4 Nokton, 75/2.5 Color-Heliar, 90/3.5 APO-Lanthar, 125/2.5 APO-Lanthar, 180/4 APO-Lanthar
Zeiss ZF: Planar T* 85/1.4 ZF
M42 SLR: Voigtländer Bessaflex TM
M42: Flektogon 20/4, Flektogon 35/2.4, Tessar 50/2.8 T, Super-Takumar 55/1.8, Biotar 58/2 T, Pentacon 135/2.8, Sonnar 135/3.5
Medium format: several Zeiss Super Ikonta 532/16 Opton-Tessar 80mm f/2.8, Zeiss Ikonta 524/16 Opton-Tessar 75mm f/3.5
Leica: R7, M4, Super-Angulon-R 4/21, Elmarit-R 2.8/28, Summicron-R 2/35, Summicron-M 2/35, Summicron-M 2/50, Elmarit-R 2,8/180
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james



Level 2

Joined: 25 Sep 2009
Posts: 266

Expire: 2011-12-28

PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 12:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great series of photos that really test the lens's performance. I will do the comparison as soon as I receive the Leitax mount I ordered this week. Maybe I should have gone to Barcelona to get it instead of waiting for the mail Cool

Last edited by james on Sat Apr 24, 2010 12:21 pm; edited 1 time in total
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BRunner



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Joined: 29 Jul 2009
Posts: 709
Location: Czech Republic


PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 12:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Esox lucius wrote:
So that's with a Samsung GX-20 and 1.5x crop factor?


Yes, I didn´t touch the EXIF information.
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