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Tough macro choice, help needed
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2010 7:43 pm    Post subject: Tough macro choice, help needed Reply with quote
I need a lens for around lifesize and slightly beyond
i used the canon 100mm usm for a while and was not terribly impressed with the results at life size and beyond (tube and diopters used as well )
actual pixel crops always seemed a bit "wooly" or slightly soft and without the expected contrast
Brilliant lens for smaller than life "macro" though

So.. decided to stick to the bellows but am tired of reversing standards and 28mm lenses on it
I am thinking of getting Rodenstock Apo Rodagon N 80mm f/4.0 or maybe the zuiko 80/4 bellows lens
The zuiko is a symetrical design so would it be as "APO" as the rodagon?
both should be insanely sharp at 1:1 and i dont mind the long bellow ext to go past 1:1
Maybe some other lens will fit the bill better ?

Any advice or experience appreciated !


PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2010 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Proper technic is lot more important than lens ... look RensehH photos taken with Vivitar or Panagor almost any better than usual macros taken with $$$ lenses..


PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2010 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Attila wrote:
Proper technic is lot more important than lens ... look RensehH photos taken with Vivitar or Panagor almost any better than usual macros taken with $$$ lenses..


I second that!


PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2010 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I think you will have a hard job to find a bad macro lens: all dedicated macro lenses are excellent performers, as far as I know. But if I may give some advise: get yourself a decent 1:1 lens if you want to use it without bellows too. And: try to get a f2.8 lens! It is so much easier to focus, I will safe lots of shots!

More info? I wrote some thoughts on my blog: http://renseblog.stellaria.nl/#post46


PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2010 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
at 1:1 and more diffraction play a important rule
F8 on full frame, F5.6 on crop and F4 on m4:3 are needed to get nice 100% crops


PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2010 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
poilu wrote:
at 1:1 and more diffraction play a important rule
F8 on full frame, F5.6 on crop and F4 on m4:3 are needed to get nice 100% crops


But to get similar results with a 1:2 lens you have to crop anyway, and it hardly ever gets decent results. And: when do you ever make 100% crops, and why?


PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2010 9:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
RenseH wrote:
I think you will have a hard job to find a bad macro lens: all dedicated macro lenses are excellent performers, as far as I know. But if I may give some advise: get yourself a decent 1:1 lens if you want to use it without bellows too. And: try to get a f2.8 lens! It is so much easier to focus, I will safe lots of shots!

More info? I wrote some thoughts on my blog: http://renseblog.stellaria.nl/#post46

Hi Rense
I agree with all you said ( nice blog) but the fact remains, most "dedicated " macro lenses are not optimised for 1:1 repro because they are designed to be used also as normal lenses as well
I used 100 usm,macro tak50/4 canon 50mm compact and variuos reversed and stacked and tubed combinations, with correctly diffused lighting But they all lacked that BITE when going1:1 and beyond
Given one is using the right technique in the first place , the lenses mentioned in my original post, should be better for 1:1 and larger in my view
The Question mainly is which one of the 2 ?


PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2010 9:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Rense wrote:
when do you ever make 100% crops, and why?

I mean viewing the pic at 100%

at 1:1 you must add 2 stop to the aperture
when you set F8 on your lens, you are in fact at F16
when viewing pic at 100% the result look soft because of the diffraction

the lens optimized for 1:1 is the apo rodagon D 75
but even for this one, manufacturer advice to use between F5.6 and F8 for best result at 1:1
that mean between F2.8 and F4 on m4:3


PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2010 10:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Leica R 2,8/100 APO, 3-CAM
A good copy can be had for ~US$1200. Well worth the investment. It is 1:2 but with an Elpro adapter, you can achieve 1:1.

It is as sharp as it will ever get straight off at f/2.8. Stopping down only adds DOF. Makes a marvelous short tele/portrait lens as well. Built like a tank.

The Leica R 4/100 is another solid option though nowhere near the 2,8/100's performance; comes in a bellows version as well as a 3-CAM. About 1/4th the price of the APO.


PostPosted: Sat Jun 26, 2010 12:22 am    Post subject: Re: Tough macro choice, help needed Reply with quote
I have 3 MF lenses that could go to 1:1 (Kiron 105mm f2.8, Vivitar 90mm f2.8 by Komine and Mamiya 645 120mm f4) but just using as is (with no extension tubes and just the pop-up flash with DIY diffuser) and still not yet satisfying compared to the ones I get from my P&S years ago. While still playing with my MF lenses now using achromats and afocal TCs in front, I just bought a new FZ35 using my old P&S setup (2-3 achromats + TC) to play simultaneously with macro fun shots.

I am about 70% bird shooter (mostly BIFs) with about 10% on flowers and 10% on insect macros during spring. The rest others like moon. I am trying to put in similar energy to my macro shots as I put in my BIFs. I still need to play and experiment some more. Good reading from Rense's blog. His DIY diffuser is along the 1st one I used (http://art4less.smugmug.com/2007-Images/FZ4-Images/2586722_JmPar#147471479_3mtVs) but now I have it longer, horizontal and tubular but similar principle - bringing in the adequate pop-up light nearer the subject.

Here are what I can get from my old P&S setup, DIY pop-up diffuser and AF. Basic/crude PP back then.




The rest of test shots in this link: http://art4less.smugmug.com/2007-Images/FZ8-Images/2791191_wrqjQ#258534001_NgRgd

Here are sample from the Kiron. I didn't put in enough time to be familiar with.




Some test shots from newer FZ35 using DIY pop-up diffuser (still tinkering) and AF


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 26, 2010 5:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Rusty wrote:
Given one is using the right technique in the first place , the lenses mentioned in my original post, should be better for 1:1 and larger in my view


Maybe you should think about the Canon MP-E 65, if that's what you're after?
Attila said it best, it's the technique that's most important, how you master the light with a flash etc.


PostPosted: Sat Jun 26, 2010 6:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
symphonic wrote:
Rusty wrote:
Given one is using the right technique in the first place , the lenses mentioned in my original post, should be better for 1:1 and larger in my view


Maybe you should think about the Canon MP-E 65, if that's what you're after?
Attila said it best, it's the technique that's most important, how you master the light with a flash etc.


And I agree completely. But then: these $$$$$ lenses won't make the photos worse......


PostPosted: Sat Jun 26, 2010 6:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
poilu wrote:
Rense wrote:
when do you ever make 100% crops, and why?

I mean viewing the pic at 100%

at 1:1 you must add 2 stop to the aperture
when you set F8 on your lens, you are in fact at F16
when viewing pic at 100% the result look soft because of the diffraction

the lens optimized for 1:1 is the apo rodagon D 75
but even for this one, manufacturer advice to use between F5.6 and F8 for best result at 1:1
that mean between F2.8 and F4 on m4:3


I guess I never do that, viewing the photo at 100%

This is an example of a 100% crop of one of my macro photos shot at 1:1 (or in fact a bit more because it was made with the Panagor 90mm + 36mm tubes). Soft? Probably. But still with enough detail, and in the original photo it is negligible.... (I added that one too).





PostPosted: Sat Jun 26, 2010 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
symphonic wrote:
Rusty wrote:
Given one is using the right technique in the first place , the lenses mentioned in my original post, should be better for 1:1 and larger in my view


Maybe you should think about the Canon MP-E 65, if that's what you're after?
Attila said it best, it's the technique that's most important, how you master the light with a flash etc.


I would like to get as close to the results, of the mpe , but without changing lenses if i bump into a critter that is larger than the sensor
In other words , something optimized in the 1/2 to 2 X life size region with reasonable working distance for insects
Ca is also a big problem with most lenses when working at that mag, so symmetrical or apo will be great


PostPosted: Sat Jun 26, 2010 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
RenseH wrote:
poilu wrote:
at 1:1 and more diffraction play a important rule
F8 on full frame, F5.6 on crop and F4 on m4:3 are needed to get nice 100% crops


But to get similar results with a 1:2 lens you have to crop anyway, and it hardly ever gets decent results. And: when do you ever make 100% crops, and why?

Making 100% crops is a great tool for checking lighting , technique and too see if the lens in use is up to the job that you are using it for
Mistakes made are always easy to spot at pixel level and also the only way to check if you want maximum detail
I want the difference between my full frame macro shot and the 100% crop the same as on this test shot with the 300mm and it's 100% crop Very Happy



PostPosted: Sat Jun 26, 2010 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
My recommendations for you (with some examples):

Canon 200mm f4 : http://flickriver.com/photos/elchivato/tags/200mm/
Tokina ATX 90mm f2.5 (with extender 1:1): http://flickriver.com/photos/elchivato/tags/tokina+extender/
Kiron 105mm f2.8 : http://flickriver.com/photos/elchivato/tags/kiron/

Good luck


PostPosted: Sat Jun 26, 2010 8:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
http://forum.mflenses.com/kiron-105mm-f2-8-macro-om-eos-t29779.html

We have a Kiron at marketplace on great price.
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