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Soligor MC 200mm F/2.8 - Optical Formula [non C/D version]
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Oldhand wrote:
This might be the one.
OH



this is a Golden/Series (g/s) lens made by sun
As most of sun lenses at that period : poor


PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
PBFACTS wrote:


this is a Golden/Series (g/s) lens made by sun
As most of sun lenses at that period : poor


Can you point us to something that will provide information on those lenses? I am not familiar with Golden Series and only get eyeglasses when searching.


PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
woodrim wrote:
PBFACTS wrote:


this is a Golden/Series (g/s) lens made by sun
As most of sun lenses at that period : poor


Can you point us to something that will provide information on those lenses? I am not familiar with Golden Series and only get eyeglasses when searching.


The g/s includes
24/2.5 (sun)
28/2.5 (sun)
135/2.5 (sun)
200/2.8 (sun)
35/140 (sun).. The WORST lens sold !
70/160 3.5 (Tefnon I presume)
70/222 3.5 (tokina I presume)


PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
PBFACTS wrote:
woodrim wrote:
PBFACTS wrote:


this is a Golden/Series (g/s) lens made by sun
As most of sun lenses at that period : poor


Can you point us to something that will provide information on those lenses? I am not familiar with Golden Series and only get eyeglasses when searching.


The g/s includes
24/2.5 (sun)
28/2.5 (sun)
135/2.5 (sun)
200/2.8 (sun)
35/140 (sun).. The WORST lens sold !
70/160 3.5 (Tefnon I presume)
70/222 3.5 (tokina I presume)


do they say g/s on the front of the lens, or does it have something to do with marketing/color of the box?


PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2014 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
kenetik wrote:
PBFACTS wrote:
woodrim wrote:
PBFACTS wrote:


this is a Golden/Series (g/s) lens made by sun
As most of sun lenses at that period : poor


Can you point us to something that will provide information on those lenses? I am not familiar with Golden Series and only get eyeglasses when searching.


The g/s includes
24/2.5 (sun)
28/2.5 (sun)
135/2.5 (sun)
200/2.8 (sun)
300/4.5 (sun)
400/5.6 (sun)
35/140 (sun).. The WORST lens sold !
70/160 3.5 (Tefnon I presume)
70/222 3.5 (tokina I presume)


do they say g/s on the front of the lens, or does it have something to do with marketing/color of the box?


i have to search but as far i can remember : the answer is NOT on front of lens (perhaps on the stop ring ?)


PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2014 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
There does not appear to be anything on my stop ring as far as I can see from pictures. When I was searching around for info, I noticed that there were at least two different prefixes for serial numbers: 37 and 38(mine). I know they didn't use the same convention as Vivitar, but doesn't that suggest different manufacturers?

I have experienced with other lenses what sceptic reported about focusing. With lenses like this it is important to have good focusing aids.


PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2014 8:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
woodrim wrote:
There does not appear to be anything on my stop ring as far as I can see from pictures. When I was searching around for info, I noticed that there were at least two different prefixes for serial numbers: 37 and 38(mine). I know they didn't use the same convention as Vivitar, but doesn't that suggest different manufacturers?

I have experienced with other lenses what sceptic reported about focusing. With lenses like this it is important to have good focusing aids.


I think that the current consensus is that Soligors commencing with a 3XXXX... prefix are from SUN, except maybe 31XXXXX.... which might be from someone else. So 37XXXXX and 38XXXXX would both be from SUN.
37XXX.... Vivitars are normally Tokina of course
OH


PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2014 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Oldhand wrote:
woodrim wrote:
There does not appear to be anything on my stop ring as far as I can see from pictures. When I was searching around for info, I noticed that there were at least two different prefixes for serial numbers: 37 and 38(mine). I know they didn't use the same convention as Vivitar, but doesn't that suggest different manufacturers?

I have experienced with other lenses what sceptic reported about focusing. With lenses like this it is important to have good focusing aids.


I think that the current consensus is that Soligors commencing with a 3XXXX... prefix are from SUN, except maybe 31XXXXX.... which might be from someone else. So 37XXXXX and 38XXXXX would both be from SUN.
37XXX.... Vivitars are normally Tokina of course
OH


Aha. So they may have had a convention after all.


PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2014 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
woodrim wrote:
Oldhand wrote:
woodrim wrote:
There does not appear to be anything on my stop ring as far as I can see from pictures. When I was searching around for info, I noticed that there were at least two different prefixes for serial numbers: 37 and 38(mine). I know they didn't use the same convention as Vivitar, but doesn't that suggest different manufacturers?

I have experienced with other lenses what sceptic reported about focusing. With lenses like this it is important to have good focusing aids.


I think that the current consensus is that Soligors commencing with a 3XXXX... prefix are from SUN, except maybe 31XXXXX.... which might be from someone else. So 37XXXXX and 38XXXXX would both be from SUN.
37XXX.... Vivitars are normally Tokina of course
OH


Aha. So they may have had a convention after all.


Yes, it is a work in progress, but lots of experience. discussion and model matching has come up with this so far:

Updated list

Soligor Codes

1 = Tokina
2 = Sun
3 = Sun
4 = Sun
5 = ???
6 = Komine
7 = Sun
8 = ???
9 = Kiron/Kino or maybe Kobori ?
31 = ??? *
A = Komura #
H4 = Kawanon ? #
H5 = Komine #
H6 = Komine #
H7= Tokina #
H37 = Kawanon? #
M = ??? #
N = ??? #
R = ??? #
T = Tamron #
Y = Komura #

Code system. First number = Maker.
Second number = Decade
Third number = Year

*Six digit lens date code unknown.

# Letter code lens date code unknown.


..... DISCLAMER THIS IS A WORKING LIST......
..... IT MAY CHANGE AS NEW EVIDENCE IS FOUND.....

See:

http://forum.mflenses.com/soligor-12-8-f28mm-21and-versions-t30866,start,180.html

To add to that, I have a Soligor 3.3/200 with serial 35XXXX.. which is, by consensus, made by Makinon ....... so .......... there is more yet to discover
OH

Last edited by Oldhand on Fri Nov 28, 2014 9:07 pm; edited 1 time in total


PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2014 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
There is no unified Soligor convention that would hold throughout all time. There are at least two systems, more possibly three. C/D is one of them.


PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2014 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Seems all conjecture. Has anyone thought of trying to track down people who were involved at the time?


PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2014 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Pancolart wrote:
There is no unified Soligor convention that would hold throughout all time. There are at least two systems, more possibly three. C/D is one of them.


Were all the C/D Soligors made by the one supplier?
OH


PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2014 9:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Oldhand wrote:
Pancolart wrote:
There is no unified Soligor convention that would hold throughout all time. There are at least two systems, more possibly three. C/D is one of them.


Were all the C/D Soligors made by the one supplier?
OH


Nope:
C/D 135/2.0 (1XXXXXXX): definitely Tokina
C/D 200/2.8 (1XXXXXXX): most likely Tokina
C/D 105/2.8 Macro (6XXXXXXX): definitely Kiron/Kino

I've got a Soligor Auto 17/4.0 (1172XXXX) here that seems to be made by Norita Kogaku.


PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2014 10:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Oldhand wrote:
woodrim wrote:
But is okay now, right? I look forward to see some images from you.


Me too.
And also from you in due course woodrim ............. Very Happy
OH


I took the lens out to test in proper light today (it was sunny out), and i think sceptic is absolutely right. This lens, wide open - just doesn't have the sharpness, it's too soft, gets better at 5.6 but not great though. Disappointed. Could be that my copy is crappy - knowing its history its quite possible, or could it be that this particular lens had quite large number of lemons. Sorry i didn't provide any pics, after trying couple shots with it, i couldn't bear its poor performance so i switched to a lens i could enjoy shooting with. Strange, but this lens fetches decent prices on ebay (anywhere from $80 to $180).

BTW mine doesn't mention G/S anywhere on the nameplate or barrel of the lens. Perhaps G/S was intended only for packaging box.


PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2014 10:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
[quote="Jvg"]
Oldhand wrote:
[quote="woodrim"I took the lens out to test in proper light today (it was sunny out), and i think sceptic is absolutely right. This lens, wide open - just doesn't have the sharpness, it's too soft, gets better at 5.6 but not great though. Disappointed. Could be that my copy is crappy - knowing its history its quite possible, or could it be that this particular lens had quite large number of lemons. Sorry i didn't provide any pics, after trying couple shots with it, i couldn't bear its poor performance so i switched to a lens i could enjoy shooting with. Strange, but this lens fetches decent prices on ebay (anywhere from $80 to $180).

BTW mine doesn't mention G/S anywhere on the nameplate or barrel of the lens. Perhaps G/S was intended only for packaging box.


That sounds rather like the Soligor Tele-Auto 300/4.5 (378XXXX) that I had (bought cheap, sold somewhat less cheap) a while ago:



PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2014 11:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
That seems to have the same shiny paint and same focusing grip. Mine has a different grip... I wonder if there is any hope.

Mine may be up for sale real quick. I was most interested in comparing it to my Series 1 3/200 which is fractionally slower, but razor sharp.


PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2014 11:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
woodrim wrote:
That seems to have the same shiny paint and same focusing grip. Mine has a different grip... I wonder if there is any hope.

Mine may be up for sale real quick. I was most interested in comparing it to my Series 1 3/200 which is fractionally slower, but razor sharp.


Do you have the C/D version?

"Auto" version (Sun?):
http://olypedia.de/static/images/2/2d/OM-Soligor_200_2.8_3rdpartylens-om.JPG

C/D version (Tokina):
http://olypedia.de/static/images/d/de/OM-Soligor_200_2.8_CD_3rdpartylens-om.JPG


Even if you have the Tokina version, I'd still expect the Vivitar to be better. I've never had a Soligor 200/2.8 but I've had the Vivitar S1 135/2.3 & 200/3 and the Soligor C/D 135/2. The Viv 135/2.3 is a lot better than the Soligor 135/2, especially at close distances. The Komine and Tokina designs each seem to have a lot in common (i.e. the floating elements for close focus in the Komine lenses).

I've posted detailed comparisons a while back (Warning: lots of 100% crops, may take a bit to load):

Soligor C/D 135/2 -vs- Vivitar Series 1 135/2.3
Vivitar Series 1 200/3 -vs- Pentax-M 200/4

I've had all 4 of the early Series 1 primes (28/1.9, 90/2.5, 135/2.3, 200/3) at one point, the 90/2.5 is the only one left.
The Komine lenses are quite good but the Rokkors were better... except at close range perhaps, the Viv 200/3 blew my Pentax-M 200/4 out of the water at 2-5m distance but the Vivitar coatings (VMC, mine didn't even have that) are probably worse than the OEM-coatings of their time.


PostPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2014 12:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Boris_Akunin wrote:
woodrim wrote:
That seems to have the same shiny paint and same focusing grip. Mine has a different grip... I wonder if there is any hope.

Mine may be up for sale real quick. I was most interested in comparing it to my Series 1 3/200 which is fractionally slower, but razor sharp.


Do you have the C/D version?

"Auto" version (Sun?):
http://olypedia.de/static/images/2/2d/OM-Soligor_200_2.8_3rdpartylens-om.JPG

C/D version (Tokina):
http://olypedia.de/static/images/d/de/OM-Soligor_200_2.8_CD_3rdpartylens-om.JPG


Even if you have the Tokina version, I'd still expect the Vivitar to be better. I've never had a Soligor 200/2.8 but I've had the Vivitar S1 135/2.3 & 200/3 and the Soligor C/D 135/2. The Viv 135/2.3 is a lot better than the Soligor 135/2, especially at close distances. The Komine and Tokina designs each seem to have a lot in common (i.e. the floating elements for close focus in the Komine lenses).

I've posted detailed comparisons a while back (Warning: lots of 100% crops, may take a bit to load):

Soligor C/D 135/2 -vs- Vivitar Series 1 135/2.3
Vivitar Series 1 200/3 -vs- Pentax-M 200/4

I've had all 4 of the early Series 1 primes (28/1.9, 90/2.5, 135/2.3, 200/3) at one point, the 90/2.5 is the only one left.
The Komine lenses are quite good but the Rokkors were better...


There is much in your post that I must comment. My version looks more like the Sun than the Tokina, although the grip is different...

I look forward to checking out your comparison posts. Most people here probably know that I've been real big on the Series 1 lenses - the three that I have. I recently picked up a Rokkor 4/200 to see how well it compared to the 3/200. The Vivitar is superior. I have been watching for the right 2.8/135 based on its reputation and will compare it to my 2.3/135. As of today, my Tair-11 is the only 135mm that has come close. The 2.5/90 is in a class of its own and the only reason I have other lenses in the range is because of unique image characteristics. The Bokina is just technically perfect.


PostPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2014 12:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
[quote="woodrim"]
Boris_Akunin wrote:
There is much in your post that I must comment. My version looks more like the Sun than the Tokina, although the grip is different...


Yeah, the Tokina-made C/D primes have a rather distinct look. I'd be very surprised if that one comes even close to the Vvitar/Komine.

woodrim wrote:
I look forward to checking out your comparison posts. Most people here probably know that I've been real big on the Series 1 lenses - the three that I have. I recently picked up a Rokkor 4/200 to see how well it compared to the 3/200. The Vivitar is superior. I have been watching for the right 2.8/135 based on its reputation and will compare it to my 2.3/135. As of today, my Tair-11 is the only 135mm that has come close. The 2.5/90 is in a class of its own and the only reason I have other lenses in the range is because of unique image characteristics. The Bokina is just technically perfect.


There are 3 different Minolta 200/4 designs, the late MC and early MD version (520/535g, ~65x130mm) seems to be the best, which one do you have? And at what distance did you compare them? The Viv 200/3 may be hard to beat at close range but long distances and backlighting are a different story...

Among the affordable options (excluding the Nikon/Minolta/Canon/Zeiss/Pentax 135/2's and 135/1.8's), the Pentax-K 135/2.5 might be your best option (the second version of the Takumar 135/2.5 is optically identical).

Artaphot.ch is a good source for Minolta lens comparisons:
http://artaphot.ch/minolta-sr/objektiv-vergleiche

Here's the comparison of Minolta's 200s:
http://artaphot.ch/minolta-sr/objektiv-vergleiche/338-nex-5n-und-minolta-200mm-teleobjektive

Dennis Lohmanns list is useful to identify the different versions:
http://minolta.eazypix.de/lenses/


PostPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2014 12:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I actually referenced all those sites before purchasing. I have the MD Tele Rokkor. It is a good lens. I found it to be no better than my Topcor 5.6/200.


PostPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2014 12:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
woodrim wrote:
I have the MD Tele Rokkor.

Which one?


PostPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2014 1:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I was speaking of the 4/200.


PostPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2014 1:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
woodrim wrote:
I was speaking of the 4/200.

I know, there are two different 200/4 designs under the name MD Tele Rokkor, one ~520g and ~65x130mm, one ~400g and ~65x117mm. The heavier version is considered to be better (same as the 4/4 version for the 135s), I sold my Viv 200/3 before I got my MD 200/4 (the early, heavy version) so I never tested them head-to-head. Im wondering whether you did.

I'll compare my MD200/4 with my Canon FD 200/2.8 when I find the time.


PostPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2014 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Pancolart wrote:

C/D 105/2.8 Macro (6XXXXXXX): definitely Kiron/Kino

I've got a Soligor Auto 17/4.0 (1172XXXX) here that seems to be made by Norita Kogaku.


1- I did not know that the kiron 105 was sold under soligor name
2- 17/4.0 is Tokina made (same lens than the 17/3.5 even if f: is indicated different)
3- Who knows you manufactured on the very first c/d batch (1975/1976)
    50mm macro ? (komine ??)
    100mm macro ? (no idea on my side)
    80/200mm (also sold as miranda ec 80/200) (makinon ??)


Last edited by PBFACTS on Sat Nov 29, 2014 5:53 pm; edited 1 time in total


PostPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2014 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
PBFACTS wrote:

1- I did not know that the kiron 105 was sold under soligor name
2- 17/4.0 is Tokina made (same lens than the 17/3.5 even if f: is indicated different)


1. I've got one right here.
2. I'm quite sure it isn't, I've got both and they don't exactly look similar:






The Noritar however does look rather similar to the Soligor.

Noritar:
http://www.kevincameras.com/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=80769&g2_serialNumber=2
http://www.kevincameras.com/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=80775&g2_serialNumber=2

Soligor:
http://forum.mflenses.com/userpix/20116/big_3922_PICT0022_1.jpg
http://forum.mflenses.com/userpix/20116/big_3922_PICT0027_1.jpg

Rikenon:
http://forum.mflenses.com/userpix/20119/big_4709_IMG_9667_1.jpg
http://forum.mflenses.com/userpix/20119/big_4709_IMG_9668_1.jpg


I know there's an older version of the Tokina 17/3.5 but the Noritar still seems like the closer fit:
http://digicamclub.de/dunkelnetz.de/images/objektivvergleiche/17er_tokina_vivitar/3_17mm.jpg
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