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[slightly OT] Help me decide: new camera or old camera?
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 6:51 am    Post subject: [slightly OT] Help me decide: new camera or old camera? Reply with quote
Hi there,

I'm very interested in the new Sony A7s, mainly for the video but I love taking photos too.
I've read a lot about this new camera and, considered the perfect camera does not exist, I still think this is finally something fresh in the market (especially for video).
Now, I guess one rule of thumb to get a new camera, especially considering the cost, is one simple question: do I need it?
If I answer that question, I guess I don't see any urgent reason to buy it. No new job would requires it and all the stuff I'm doing with my 7D and the collected lenses I've gathered so far, seems to be working quite well.
But this A7s seems to be really something! Therefore, a few questions for you guys:

1 - Any of you are already using the A7s? If so, what are your thoughts on this camera? (pro & cons).
2 - In case I would buy it, I'm thinking to keep my Nikon, M42, OM adapters to EOS on the lenses and simply buy one EOS to E-mount adapter to use all my lenses, I think that should work, right? (I already asked on a sub-forum here, but at this point I'm just putting all my questions together for easier future ref).
3 - Probably the most important question: do you think/see any advantages (or disadvantages) using the A7s vs the 7D? Would I get a better gear that would potentially allow me to get better photos? (of course only on the technical side, obviously creativity it's another matter).

I might have forgot some questions, if so I'll edit the post later.

Thanks for any advice!!


PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 7:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hmm, I don't have either camera so you can take this advice with a grain of salt.
But ...... the 7D seems to be a very capable camera - even able to take HD video.
It already has c18Mp sensor and you are well versed in using it.
It is not full frame as is the Sony, and likely won't have as wide a range of ISO sensitivity.
Sooo - do you need the A7s - probably not.
Do you want the A7s - probably very much so.
If you can afford it and you can't wait for the next big thing from Sony then buy it.
If I was just starting into digital photography I would be looking seriously at the Sony A7 lineup for sure.
Having said all that, would I buy one?
- no.
I would spend the money on a holiday, so that I could get more use out of the camera/lenses that I have.
There will always be another camera release around the corner that will be even better than the A7s.
Good luck with your choices - just have fun making images whatever you choose.
OH


PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 7:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Oldhand wrote:
Hmm, I don't have either camera so you can take this advice with a grain of salt.
But ...... the 7D seems to be a very capable camera - even able to take HD video.
It already has c18Mp sensor and you are well versed in using it.
It is not full frame as is the Sony, and likely won't have as wide a range of ISO sensitivity.
Sooo - do you need the A7s - probably not.
Do you want the A7s - probably very much so.
If you can afford it and you can't wait for the next big thing from Sony then buy it.
If I was just starting into digital photography I would be looking seriously at the Sony A7 lineup for sure.
Having said all that, would I buy one?
- no.
I would spend the money on a holiday, so that I could get more use out of the camera/lenses that I have.
There will always be another camera release around the corner that will be even better than the A7s.
Good luck with your choices - just have fun making images whatever you choose.
OH


Thank you Oldhand,

I like all you said, especially the part where I want the A7s very much Smile
Actually, you mentioned something that reminded me another question that I forgot to ask.

Quote:
If you can afford it and you can't wait for the next big thing from Sony then buy it.

and
Quote:
There will always be another camera release around the corner that will be even better than the A7s.


So, my other question is about Sony cameras life cycle. It seems they are baking new cameras quite frequently, for sure more often than Canon does (and with better options at this point).
To all Sony users (and I know this questions may sound a bit silly considered we can't predict what the plans are): do you think Sony will come up with something new soon? Like, in 6 months maybe, 1 year perhaps or more?
I guess what I'm trying to figure out, especially after your thoughts Oldhand, is if it might make more sense just wait for a better camera or not. The more I write about this question, the more I find it myself impossible to answer Confused
Sony could fix/improve some important features on the next A7s firmware release, but also considering they improved the video from the A7r to A7s so much, who can imagine what they could come up with after the A7s... Hm...


PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 8:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Sony have a large lineup, and they do release new models fairly frequently. But the old models also seem to stick around for a long time - certainly the better and more popular models, it hasn't been long since the NEX models dissapeared from the Sony web site - replaced by the Alpha range.
I bought a A6000 when they came out early this year and now the dealers are discounting them a small amount, just 6 months after release, but I suspect it is the price they will settle at for a long time. I don't think A7 prices will drop dramatically from where they are now.


PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I have both Canon 7D and Sony A7r ... after I received my A7r , the 7D sits in a closet for 99% of time. Will most probably sell it.
Not because it's bad, but because the A7R is so great and fun to use.


PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
There are rumors of a 50mpix sensor comming up. If this ends up in a A7 body the old A7r prices will drop.
The 36mpix sensor has a couple of years on the neck and a new sensor will mean latest technology with its benefits.
Just my 2 cents.
Kjell


PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Belcanto wrote:
There are rumors of a 50mpix sensor comming up. If this ends up in a A7 body the old A7r prices will drop.
Kjell


It's not a rumor, but next logical step (technology moves forward not backward). Smile

But here are my 2 cents.

Last december i was seriously considering selling all my canon gear and completely switching over to sony a7 (not a7r). I needed the full frame, and mirrorless full frame - sounded like dream come true. The only downside to sony a7 was that variety of optics in sony line up are poor, incomplete and heavily overpriced (limited primes with ridiculous prices, no 85mm no 135mm, no 200mm, and standard zoom lenses costing nearly as much as canon's L series lenses but nowhere near as fast as canon's counterparts). Obviously if you're going full-on manual lenses on sony a7/r/s then it's not a problem. And of course you can get an adapter to use Sony/Minolta AF lenses on it, but that's an extra expense, that i thought would be better spent on getting new lenses. So, i went with Canon 6d instead, especially when B&H was selling those at $1400 (sony a7 was going at $1800 at that time) -so no brainer. I got to keep all my excellent canon glass and for manual lenses bought nex 6.

Agreed that sony's coming up with newer camera models more often than any other camera manufacturer. But in my opinion, they should be concentrating on releasing new and wide variety of optics and at acceptable prices for existing cameras.

I'm not endorsing purchase of a canon 6d. No. I'm merely suggesting, you should choose what you are or going to be comfortable with and from what you get the most use.


PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2014 12:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Thank you all for your advices.
I've been thinking to sell the 7D too, and I've actually tried even though is not easy (I guess a lot of people want to sell their gears now).
There should be a big news about Sony products this January-February, so it is really up to me at this point to buy the A7s or just wait.
I think I'll let the time to decide for me. If I feel still very interested in this camera in 2-4 weeks from now, than I'll buy it.
For sure I won't go with Canon again, clearly they're not interested in developing anything for video in that range, they just want to keep the C-series dedicated to video and leave the lower cameras for stills with basic video features.


PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2014 1:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Having moved from EOS to E mount, and shoot nothing but Manual glass, I'm very happy with my A7r, The A7s is still very tempting to me just for the low light ability and it's reduction of color-shift with WA RF lenses.I think I will be able to resist buying an A7s for now, and wait to see what comes next.
The A7s is probably the best camera for Adapted lenses, period.


PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2014 5:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lightshow wrote:
Having moved from EOS to E mount, and shoot nothing but Manual glass, I'm very happy with my A7r, The A7s is still very tempting to me just for the low light ability and it's reduction of color-shift with WA RF lenses.I think I will be able to resist buying an A7s for now, and wait to see what comes next.
The A7s is probably the best camera for Adapted lenses, period.


That's another reason why I've got interested in Sony. I've read they're probably the best in terms of adapted lenses, why is that?
I assume as usual all I need is an adapter. What are the restrictions? On my 7D I'm adapting quite a good range of lenses, except for Cine lenses, would those work on the A7s or only Sony MFT?

Also, this reminds me of my question: I'm using this Nikon to EOS http://amzn.com/B001G4QXLE. If I use this Eos to E-mount http://amzn.com/B003X1FSCS I guess I can simply mount the Nikons with the EOS adapter to it. Basically: Nikon -> EOS -> e-Mount

edit: and in the meantime this seems to be the big news for next year: http://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/50-megapixel-full-frame-sensor-generation-coming-first-quarter-of-2015
Not sure how this will/could affect A7s line though. The smart move with the A7s to have it working great in low-light conditions seems to be the opposite route going with the small MP solution.


PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2014 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I have no experience with A7S, but I have used both the 7D and the A7.

Sony A7/S/R are best in terms of adapted lenses because:
a) short register/ flange distance - there are lots of lenses that need to sit closer to the sensor than it's possible on current DSLRs. Canon FD, Minolta MD, LTM/L39 just to name a few mounts. Mirrorless cameras like the Sony can easily accommodate them.
b) A7 series are currently the only (at least somewhat reasonably priced) full-frame mirrorless cameras - so you get the same field of view and depth of field on all those legacy lenses as they were originally meant to have.
c) since adapted lenses are usually manual focus only, you need focusing aides; Sony offers quite usable zooming and focus peaking features - and you also get to see them through the viewfinder, unlike the liveview on 7D.
d) A7S reportedly has the least problems with (mostly wide rangefinder) lenses that cause issues with image corners on other A7 cameras; it's also the most forgiving resolution-wise.

As for adapters, yes, in principle you can use stacked adapters (OM lens, OM->EOS adapter, EOS->E-mount adapter, camera), but be sure to get the right EOS->E-mount adapter, from this topic you linked to a Nikon->E-mount adapter and in your other topic to a Canon FD->E-mount. Canon FD is not the same as Canon EOS. I prefer single adapters - the Nikon/OM->EOS adapters are somewhat thin and fiddly; tolerances and any slack also stack up when using multiple adapters.

As for 7D vs A7(s), well, the 7D has reasonable AF and a huge AF lens system; it's quite fast and responsive and has impressive battery life. But that's pretty much it. So if you are shooting sports/action/events on a budget, the 7D might be a better choice (AF, speed, more reach because of the crop sensor), but in most other scenarios Sony will be better. I hope I'm not starting a war, but image quality wise, the fairly old Canon crop sensor can not keep up with current full-frame tech. Noise, dynamic range, per-pixel sharpness (if there is such a thing) will be superior on the Sonys and I think it will more than make up for the resolution loss on the A7S compared to 7D. Shallower depth of field on fullframe also offers some additional creative possibilities.

I can't really comment on how good or bad the Sony AF is because I pretty much use MF lenses only on the A7, but if you are comfortable using your MF lenses on the 7D, the Sony will be inspiring to use - many more lenses you can try, full-frame FOV and DOF, easier MF, superior image quality. It's also compact and easy to carry with you and stealthy/unintrusive if needed, particularly the A7S, I think it can shoot completely silently, unlike other A7 models. The flipscreen is also nice to have. The biggest issue I can think of is that in harsh sunlight coming from the wrong direction, I find both the screen and viewfinder images (especially in portrait orientation) on the Sony hard to see.

The A7S in particular should also be better for video - I understand it has good in-camera 1080p (unlike 7D and the other A7 models, where there is softness, aliasing and moire), but no personal experience with that.

But like others have said, there's always something better around the corner as well.


PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2014 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
cgustav wrote:


Also, this reminds me of my question: I'm using this Nikon to EOS http://amzn.com/B001G4QXLE. If I use this Eos to E-mount http://amzn.com/B003X1FSCS I guess I can simply mount the Nikons with the EOS adapter to it. Basically: Nikon -> EOS -> e-Mount


Sure, you can stack adapters, but you'll be better off getting dedicated adapters for couple of reasons:

1) most adapters have play (some more than others), so in essence when stacking adapters you increase the chances of wobble and play, which becomes a problem with manual focus lenses. (from personal experience only M42 & LTM adaptes fit snug, without play, others, especially bayonet types show some degree of play).

2) most adapters (that i've tried: fotodiox, fotga, newer) slightly miss the infinity mark, meaning infinity focus happens just a fraction of a millimeter before infinity mark on focus scale. Not a problem when using single adapter but if stacked "beyond infinity" range becomes more obvious.

3) you might run a risk of "permanently" stacking adapters, detaching them from each other or from the lens might happen, depending on stack combination.


PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2014 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Thanks for the thorough explanation Jvg!
I think it's better to go with specific adapters then.

In the meantime Fotodiox came out with this, seems a good replacement to have:
The TOUGH E-Mount from Fotodiox Pro
http://www.amazon.com/The-TOUGH-E-Mount-Fotodiox-Pro/dp/B00OI8WK1M/


PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2014 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
cgustav wrote:
Thanks for the thorough explanation Jvg!
I think it's better to go with specific adapters then.

In the meantime Fotodiox came out with this, seems a good replacement to have:
The TOUGH E-Mount from Fotodiox Pro
http://www.amazon.com/The-TOUGH-E-Mount-Fotodiox-Pro/dp/B00OI8WK1M/


Looks interesting though, but not of particular use for me. If i mount huge/bulky lens on my nex6, i make sure that lens has tripod mount, and never apply the weight of the lens to the camera body, meaning i grip on the lens not body.

My general experience with fotodiox is that they tend to make lots of lemons (not sure about their pro-line). For instance, recently bought 3 AF extension tube sets for Canon, only to find that only 1 set worked great/as intented, but the rest either had too much wobble or would grind against lens mount. Had to return 2, but i'm quite happy with one that worked. With their adapters, having owned few, i can say that all of them go beyond infinity mark, but slightly, and way better than what i had experienced with fotga adapters (for instance few of my LTM lenses were able to achieve infinity focus, while wast majority of them couldn't with fotga LTM to E-mount adapter). So in general, fotodiox is good, but expect lemons, although they've been good on returns/refunds so can't complain about that either.


PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2014 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
MartinV wrote:
I have no experience with A7S, but I have used both the 7D and the A7.

Sony A7/S/R are best in terms of adapted lenses because:
a) short register/ flange distance - there are lots of lenses that need to sit closer to the sensor than it's possible on current DSLRs. Canon FD, Minolta MD, LTM/L39 just to name a few mounts. Mirrorless cameras like the Sony can easily accommodate them.
b) A7 series are currently the only (at least somewhat reasonably priced) full-frame mirrorless cameras - so you get the same field of view and depth of field on all those legacy lenses as they were originally meant to have.
c) since adapted lenses are usually manual focus only, you need focusing aides; Sony offers quite usable zooming and focus peaking features - and you also get to see them through the viewfinder, unlike the liveview on 7D.
d) A7S reportedly has the least problems with (mostly wide rangefinder) lenses that cause issues with image corners on other A7 cameras; it's also the most forgiving resolution-wise.

[...]

The A7S in particular should also be better for video - I understand it has good in-camera 1080p (unlike 7D and the other A7 models, where there is softness, aliasing and moire), but no personal experience with that.

But like others have said, there's always something better around the corner as well.


Thank you MartinV, lot of interesting points in your post!
I shoot only manual, so I'm not taking any advantage from the AF system of the 7D. Also I don't shoot sport/actions. I love street photography, architecture and above all video and that's why I thought the A7s could be a push in that direction.

Even though as a geek person I feel I'm always interested in new technology, I don't buy new stuff just because they're cool. It is true that it is up to us to get the best out of our gears.
That being said I also believe that there are things that can help us to get better results (or in same cases only achievable with particular tools). What I found hard so far with the 7D it's been focusing using manuals looking through the optical viewfinder, having to deal with the limited color range for color correction/color grading and all in all dealing with a fairly heavy camera. I kinda like how it feels but when you go out for a session and you're on the field for three-four hours you may definitely start to feel the weight of the 7D (even though I guess the weight it is really a minor thing).

A part from this little digression on the new gears, thank you for noticing the adapters issue I've posted. I've collected several links and I've posted the wrong ones. But you've got the idea I was aiming at, so as you say stacking works but might not be the best solution. I'll bear that in mind Wink

One last thing: since shooting with ML is something that really matters to me, and since A7s seems to be a good candidate for that role, would CCTV lenses work on the A7s FF? Or are they limited to four thirds sensor only?

Thanks
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