Shooting in the shadows

[peterqd]

This isn't a normal gallery thread, I didn't know where to put it. It's more a question about metering technique.

The day I went to Oxford recently was bright and clear, just right for making a photographic tour, but unfortunately I didn't finish my meeting until 5.00pm and the sun was getting a little low in the sky, casting long shadows. Near the end of the walk-round the buildings in sunlight were extremely bright and the shadows were very dark.

I was using the Yashica-Mat 124 with its own meter, with 50ASA Velvia (which didn't help) and also used the Weston V hand-held meter. I tried very hard to get the exposures right but the results were still disappointing. I guess I was asking too much of the film/camera, but I'm interested to know what techniques some of you might recommend. Here are a couple of examples:

Two readings taken and exposure averaged. The shot was more underexposed than this and I've had to tweak it to pick out some of the detail in shadow:


This is an extreme example, I know. I took one reading of the building in shadow and ignored the sun:

_________________
Lenses: M42 - CZJ 2.8/20, 2.4/35, 1.8/50, 2.8/50, 3.5/135 - Meyer/Pentacon 1.8/50, 2.8/50, 2.8/135, 4/200
Russian - J9, J21, J37A, M1v, M24m, I50-2, H44m-4 Vega12
Takumar 3.5/28, 3.5/35, 1.4/50, 1.8/55, 1.9/85, 3.5/135 - Vivitar 2.8/28
K-mount : Pentax-M 2.8/28, 1.7/50 - Tamron zooms :SP28-80, SP35-80, SP60-300, 80-210
DSLR:Canon 400D 35mm SLR: Pentax Spotmatic SP, SPII, SPF, ESII, K2, ME Super, P30 - Chinon CE-3 - Minolta XG-M - Praktica Nova 1B, PLC2
Rangefinder: Zorki-4, Beauty Light-o-matic III Medium Format: Yashica-Mat 124G

[Rob Leslie]

In such situations you have to make the choice and expose accordingly.
If you want the highlights expose for them if its detail in the shadows then expose for the shadows.
But it really isn’t as simple as that.
Making that ‘Choice’ is what can make a good photographer or photograph.
Shadows can be good if you use them, same with highlights.
All or most exposure is a compromise, as a photographer you have to make the hard choice of what the subject is and expose for that. If you wish to show detail in the shadows then that is the correct exposure or the opposite.
It is very difficult to see the potential of such contrasty situations but it is there.
Colour film isn’t the best for such pictures as it can’t handle the contrast ratio. BW film can do about 10,000 to 1 or a 10 stop range while colour is something like 150 to 1 or about 8 stops.
Of course with digital one can overcome the problem by getting more from the image with good RAW conversion.
Blending exposures for both highlights and shadows (HDR) can also be done with film and digital but again with colour film there will be problems with under or overexposed colour.
PS I like the second exposure. Try adjusting the black point to darken those shadows and give your highlights more punch.


_________________
Pentax K10D & K100D. Many Tamron Adaptall SP lenses, Fujinon f4.5 400mm. A loved Lens Baby 2, Lubitel triplet +++ and many many film cameras. Mainly a Digital user.
http://roblesliephotography.blogspot.com

[Orio]

Peter,

the already difficult situation in your first image is made worse by the fact that the main building is white.

It is the white building that pushes the average metering towards underexposure.

The first thing to do, is to get rid of the final subjects and meter light on a trustable subject.

If you don't have a grey card with you, use your hand. I meter on the back of my hand when shooting negative film, and on the palm of my hand when shooting slides.

So go to a sunlight position and meter your hand.
Then move to a open shadow position and meter again.

The values will be different, but less different than if you metered on the real subject.

How to choose between the two values?
Usually, balance the average closer to the shadows if you use a negative film, and closer to the highlight if you use slide film. Keeping in mind that slide film has minor latitude and therefore less room to play with.

With this procedure, I rarely made any wrong shot.

Of course the procedure would change if instead of a large landscape, you had to photograph a precise subject. In that case, spot or semi-spot metering is required.
-
_________________
_
ХОРИОС-61 ( ώρεος ) : Lens sana in corpore sano

Main Tools:
LENSES: Carl Zeiss, Leitz, Soviet, old Nikkors, others.
DSLR: Canon EOS 5D, 50D. SLR: Contax AX, RX, 167MT; Voigtländer Bessaflex TM; Praktica FX2; Nikon FM2, F70.
RANGEFINDERS: Contax G2, Kiev-4, Voigtlaender Bessa-T, Canonette QL17. MEDIUM FORMAT: Pentacon 6, Zeiss Super Ikonta, Agfa Record II.
Read Full List HERE
www.timelessphotography.eu
www.oriofoto.net

"Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear. " (George Orwell)
_

[peterqd]

Thanks Rob. I'll remember your advice about B&W. The first pic has such extremes of light and shade, it was asking too much to get the detail in both. Averaging the values didn't work and I ended up getting nothing right!

With the second pic, the intention was to pick out the detail and texture in the building and I think it worked better with just the one reading, but the reflection on the stone cobbles in the centre of the lane is blown. I've never tried blending exposures, might give that a go. I agree the contrast could be a bit punchier, but on my monitor I can't see any detail in the first section of the building.

Orio, thank you very much for the tips, I'll give the hand trick a try. What you say about overexposing for slides seems to make sense.
_________________
Lenses: M42 - CZJ 2.8/20, 2.4/35, 1.8/50, 2.8/50, 3.5/135 - Meyer/Pentacon 1.8/50, 2.8/50, 2.8/135, 4/200
Russian - J9, J21, J37A, M1v, M24m, I50-2, H44m-4 Vega12
Takumar 3.5/28, 3.5/35, 1.4/50, 1.8/55, 1.9/85, 3.5/135 - Vivitar 2.8/28
K-mount : Pentax-M 2.8/28, 1.7/50 - Tamron zooms :SP28-80, SP35-80, SP60-300, 80-210
DSLR:Canon 400D 35mm SLR: Pentax Spotmatic SP, SPII, SPF, ESII, K2, ME Super, P30 - Chinon CE-3 - Minolta XG-M - Praktica Nova 1B, PLC2
Rangefinder: Zorki-4, Beauty Light-o-matic III Medium Format: Yashica-Mat 124G

[Orio]

[Laurence]

[bob955i]

Years ago a photographer told me to underexpose slide film a little bit - like Orio says, as it helped the slide look better when projected due to the contrast boost and reduction in blown highlights. I tried it, liked the results and have done it ever since.

We might not project slides so much now as scan them but it's still good advice even today.
_________________
"The badger winks twice before the cheese explodes!"


DSLR: Canon EOS 5D
SLR: Ihagee Exa (V4), Exakta VX, Exakta Varex VX, Exakta Varex IIa, Exakta Varex IIb, Exakta VX 1000, Pentacon F, Pentacon FM, Pentacon FBM, Praktica BC-1, Voigtländer Bessaflex TM black
Medium Format: Mamiya RB67 Pro-S, Pentacon Six TL, Yashica 635
Rangefinder: Rank-Mamiya 4B
Bridge: Minolta DiMage 7i
P&S: Olympus XA-3
Lenses by the following makers:
Carl Zeiss Jena, Carl Zeiss Oberkochen, Hanimex, Mamiya, Meyer Optik Görlitz, Pentacon, Prakticar, Schneider-Kreuznach, Sigma, Super Paragon

Gear junkies look here

[Orio]

I still love projecting slides.
This is the main reason why I always shoot slides when I go on vacation.
I have a box of 10 loaders full of my Budapest slides of last year and they make a great show!
No computer slideshow can beat it - no, not even projected. I have seen digital photos projected and perhaps I am an old analog sucker, but for me the "breath" of projected film slides is just not there...
_________________
_
ХОРИОС-61 ( ώρεος ) : Lens sana in corpore sano

Main Tools:
LENSES: Carl Zeiss, Leitz, Soviet, old Nikkors, others.
DSLR: Canon EOS 5D, 50D. SLR: Contax AX, RX, 167MT; Voigtländer Bessaflex TM; Praktica FX2; Nikon FM2, F70.
RANGEFINDERS: Contax G2, Kiev-4, Voigtlaender Bessa-T, Canonette QL17. MEDIUM FORMAT: Pentacon 6, Zeiss Super Ikonta, Agfa Record II.
Read Full List HERE
www.timelessphotography.eu
www.oriofoto.net

"Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear. " (George Orwell)
_

[bob955i]

There's always been a "depth" to a slide that is difficult, if not impossible, to reproduce by any other means.
_________________
"The badger winks twice before the cheese explodes!"


DSLR: Canon EOS 5D
SLR: Ihagee Exa (V4), Exakta VX, Exakta Varex VX, Exakta Varex IIa, Exakta Varex IIb, Exakta VX 1000, Pentacon F, Pentacon FM, Pentacon FBM, Praktica BC-1, Voigtländer Bessaflex TM black
Medium Format: Mamiya RB67 Pro-S, Pentacon Six TL, Yashica 635
Rangefinder: Rank-Mamiya 4B
Bridge: Minolta DiMage 7i
P&S: Olympus XA-3
Lenses by the following makers:
Carl Zeiss Jena, Carl Zeiss Oberkochen, Hanimex, Mamiya, Meyer Optik Görlitz, Pentacon, Prakticar, Schneider-Kreuznach, Sigma, Super Paragon

Gear junkies look here

[F16SUNSHINE]

The first shot would be a good opportunity to use a minus development. I would try something like this.

Meter the back of your hand or grey card in the area of the shadows.

Overexpose by 1 and 2 stops (bracket) to bring density into the shadow parts of the negative

develop negative with a minus 1-1.5 with lesser agitation in the second half of development.

For example if using tmax100 and tmax developer at 75F 5min development with 5 secs agitation every 30 seconds for first 3 min, reducing to 5secs every 60 secs for the last 2 min

Because the shadows develop more slowly and exhaust the developer more slowly as well. Reducing time and agitation will keep the highlights from blowing out and allow the shadows to dense up and bring detail. This is probably old hat to many here but I thought I would post it up for any B+W film newbies.
_________________
Current Kit
Canon 5D, 40D
Contax 4/18, 1.4/50, 1.4/85, 2.8/85, 2/100, 3.5/100, 2.8/180, Rollei HFT 1.4/35, 1.4/85, Zuiko 2/21, 2/24, 2/28, 2/35, 2/80, Yashica ML 3.5/21, 2.8/24, Helios 40 protype, Trioplan 2.8/100, Tair 11A,
Epson R D1(s), Bessa L, Bessa R2m, Leica CL, CV 4.5/15, 4/25, 1.4/40, Zeiss ZM 2/35, Yashinon1.8/50, CLE 4/90, Zeiss Opton 4/135 T, Electro GT, Electro GX, Electro CC

[Katastrofo]

Very interesting thread, and great advice! Andy, I still haven't started my
progress into B&W film developing, but really appreciated your tips and
techniques.

Bill

[Rob Leslie]

[peterqd]

[Rob Leslie]