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Sensor size vs legacy glass : M43, APS-C...focal reducer ?
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 1:52 am    Post subject: Sensor size vs legacy glass : M43, APS-C...focal reducer ? Reply with quote

Hi !

I tested some good legacy glass, with dumb adapters, on M43.
Canon, Konica Minolta, Olympus OM...
And i was really disappointed. Image circle is TOO cropped.
I didn't thought i would loose so much pure resolution.
And i don't want to close those lenses at f8, because i can already do that with my native ones Twisted Evil

So i was asking myself about two solutions to keep using those standard focal/fast aperture lenses : buying focal reducer for M43, to get (at least) better center resolution/contrast.
OR buying a cheap second hand Sony NEX body, with bigger sensor.
It is almost the same price.

Those two solutions giving me (almost) the same result.
M43 focal reducer correcting at 0.72, it gives on 50mm : 50 x 0.72 = 36 * 2 =72mm equivalent (compared to 75mm on APS-C). And a theoretical (almost) 1 stop aperture gain.

Any advice or experience about shooting the same lens on different sensor size AND/OR focal reducer is welcome Wink


PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 6:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd buy one of the many cheap APS-C bodies because any additional glass between the sensor and lens is limiting resolution and contrast further. You really have to spend a lot to get the best focal reducers, so an APS-C body is probably cheaper second-hand, and you still have the option of adding a speedbooster. The even better alternative is just to wait for Sony A7 prices to hit the floor, and shoot film in the meantime.


PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 9:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I totally understand your point of view Wink

But here is the other side of the story (someone on DPR) :

"I wouldn't want to use legacy lenses ever again without either a good EVF or IBIS, and I wouldn't want to carry a second body just to adapt legacy lenses. For me, I've found the focal reducer solution with Micro Four Thirds to be just what I need, even if the remaining effective 1.4x focal length extension still limits the usefulness of adapted wide-angle lenses."

Full story here :
https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/57733163

I know i will miss IBIS and the splendid E-M1 EVF, too. It helps a lot with legacy.
And i can't afford an APS-C body with both.

If money was not a factor, i would probably buy an A7 Twisted Evil


PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you want the A7 then anything less and you may regret it. Better to exercise patience and save up for a bit. There won't really be a reason to upgrade down the track then, either, and you may just spend the same amount or more trying out APS-C and Speedbooster only to eventually move to FF. That's why I kept m43 and simply bought any of the very cheap film bodies to use. IBIS isn't an issue, and I just have to accept the limitations of film and my wallet. Wink I prefer to spend the same money buying many different lenses.


PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i will add that after buying some legacy lenses in different focals, and being disappointed due to M43 Olympus sensor (Panasonic sensor stack seems better with legacy), i bought more and more native M43 and 43 adapted (thanks to E-M1 phase detect) instead.

I'm almost covered now : Pana 12-32, Pana 20mm f1.7 MK1 (my beloved one), 50mm f2 macro 1:2 43, 40-150 f3.5 (light Olympus lens), heavy 50-200mm 2.8/3.5 43 Olympus.

Now, i'm only looking at this mean to get a faster 50mm and with more "character" than my amazing 50mm f2 macro 43 adapted.
But may be it is time to simply stop searching for "more" and "better", and enjoy my native ones Wink

I was just not expecting so much troubles with Olympus M43 E-M1 MK1 sensor and legacy (very low resolution and more defects than on APS-C, unusual "glow" (even compared to Panasonic M43)...).

Using legacy lenses (almost) wide open, without focal reducer, on M43 and expecting to match digital 43/M43 native lenses was a mistake. Now it is time for me to leave. At least for some time Twisted Evil Wink


PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2016 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I use my OM-D just for cine lenses and Pentax 110, SLR and RF lenses works best with FF Wink


PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2016 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gLOW-x wrote:
i will add that after buying some legacy lenses in different focals, and being disappointed due to M43 Olympus sensor (Panasonic sensor stack seems better with legacy), i bought more and more native M43 and 43 adapted (thanks to E-M1 phase detect) instead.

I'm almost covered now : Pana 12-32, Pana 20mm f1.7 MK1 (my beloved one), 50mm f2 macro 1:2 43, 40-150 f3.5 (light Olympus lens), heavy 50-200mm 2.8/3.5 43 Olympus.

Now, i'm only looking at this mean to get a faster 50mm and with more "character" than my amazing 50mm f2 macro 43 adapted.
But may be it is time to simply stop searching for "more" and "better", and enjoy my native ones Wink

I was just not expecting so much troubles with Olympus M43 E-M1 MK1 sensor and legacy (very low resolution and more defects than on APS-C, unusual "glow" (even compared to Panasonic M43)...).

Using legacy lenses (almost) wide open, without focal reducer, on M43 and expecting to match digital 43/M43 native lenses was a mistake. Now it is time for me to leave. At least for some time Twisted Evil Wink


If all you wanted to do was expand your current kit then I agree that m43 and legacy FF glass simply don't mix well. I started with a 55/1.7 for the same reason and quickly replaced it with the Oly 45/1.8. My Minolta 35mm F1.8 and 135mm F2.8 are the only lenses that perform well, depending on the circumstances. The 35 is definitely sharp, no problem, but stopping down beyond F5.6 and it begins to lose all the contrast and saturation - very odd. The 135 doesn't quite reach the same level, but works nicely for portraits (of the cat). On m43, there simply aren't many native alternatives to the 135. I've also used the 300mm F4.5 on the moon and buildings and it does much better on the latter, although cropping from 150mm or 200mm on one of the zooms would be just as good if not better.


PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2016 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A lot of ppl said, at first, fast/wide legacy lenses don't work right on digital.
But ppl started posting good results.

So ppl said they could work right on some sensors. But it was not only size related.

And lately, i found the answer : filter stack on sensor.
M43 use a VERY thick 4mm stack.
Nex/alpha around 1.5mm.
And Leica and Sony A7 modded around 0.5mm only. It improve things A LOT.

Focal reducers improve things by making lenses image circle more "telecentric".

You can find find good articles on lens rental website about filter stack on sensors Very Happy


PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2016 8:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

gLOW-x wrote:
A lot of ppl said, at first, fast/wide legacy lenses don't work right on digital.
But ppl started posting good results.

So ppl said they could work right on some sensors. But it was not only size related.

And lately, i found the answer : filter stack on sensor.
M43 use a VERY thick 4mm stack.
Nex/alpha around 1.5mm.
And Leica and Sony A7 modded around 0.5mm only. It improve things A LOT.

Focal reducers improve things by making lenses image circle more "telecentric".

You can find find good articles on lens rental website about filter stack on sensors Very Happy


Yes, this is well known information by RF lens enthusiasts.
Kolarivision can do the modification with a thinner filter on A7 series: https://kolarivision.com/product/sony-a7-series-thin-filter-legacy-lens-upgrade/


PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2016 4:19 pm    Post subject: FF v\s MFT+speedbooster Reply with quote

I find that my MFT (PenF) behaves very well with the Metabones speedbooster. I have used several lenses mostly normal and longer. Adapted because I already have them and on FF they are very good. Not much point in adapting wides, since the Olympus ones are absolutly up to scratch. No brickwalls to show here, however. Summing up;

The FF (Canon) is bigger and more cumbersome. Its optical viewfinder is not in the same league as the native film body of the lens (R9). Direct-view works fine in tethered mode with the much larger computer screen. Also fine for using bellows.

I particularly like the 50\2 Summicron R on the MFT where it becomes a slightly faster, stabilized, portrait lens. The viewfinder needs buttonpressing, but works in full daylight -something back panels do not. No experience with intermediate size sensors, but for casual use, no easily discernible quality loss between FF and MFT.

p.


PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2016 2:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Metabones speedbooster M43 was calculated with that 4mm filter stack in mind.
Brian Caldwell (speedbooster optics creator) even said, in one of those "filter stack" articles, M43 sensor was the best candidate for speedbooster.

Making light very telecentric (like M43 lenses are supposed to work) and probably, at the same time, taking only the best part of image circle (APS-C crop like). And of course, taking into account 4mm filter stack, witch dumb tubes don't...because they can't Twisted Evil

My only problem still i can buy a second hand APS-C body for the price of Metabones focal reducer alone.
And non Metabones ones don't do the trick for still images on M43 (to me).
That was my main concern in the first post. And still Wink

I think i'm going to buy an APS-C body. And see for a focal reducer (M43 or APS-C) later Wink


PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2016 8:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I doubt you will be content with a APS-C at the end:( But even if you wait, save enough to get a A7, next question in your mind would possibly be "A7 or A7II" which is a mere symptom of never-ending pursuit for perfect camera or perfect equipment which to me does not exist.

As a user of a m43, a mirrorless FF and an old APS-C, I suggest you to make most of you have rather than going after other options. All systems have their competencies, but result generally is a factor of the user. I was definitely happier with by Minolta 28 2.5 on my m43 rather than FF, as I enjoy the best portion of the lens and my MFD was half I get on FF. But Rokkor 58 1.2 on m43 was just an ordinary old and bulky lens on m43.

Last but not the least, your cheap adapter may be more of a factor than the thick stack or telecentricity or lack thereof...


PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2016 10:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I understand this point, too Wink Never ending gear search is (one) of my problems.
And you can add "Kolarivision A7 filter mod" to this never ending scheme, because corners are better with film lenses Twisted Evil

About gear disappointment, i don't think i will be more disappointed than seeing my first Canon FDn 50mm @ f1.4 pictures on M43 sensor Mr. Green No resolution, spherical aberration, flare and more.

Especially compared to my favorite lens Pana 20mm f1.7 mk1 native. Gorgeous bokeh, flare resistance making shot against the sun a pleasure, Pana/Leica colors combined with Olympus colors...

Apart some special lenses (like Helios swirly bokeh), i finally don't feel i need so much lenses.
I'm going to open a gift (to myself) i just received for Christmas : 50mm f2 Four Third Wink


PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2016 9:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You should try to get your hands on the Fujinon 75mm f/1.8 in C-mount which is a stunning performer on m43. The Canon TV-16 50mm f/1.4 in C-mount is another jewel. I also love the super swirly Cooke Kinic 1 inch f/1.5 in C-mount on m43...


PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2016 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I seen ppl complaining about Helios 44-2 loosing swirl on M43 (without focal reducer) due to crop factor.

And some ppl suggested CCTV, like you Wink
Fujian 35mm f1.7 seems a good candidate, too.

Thanks for those lenses suggestions ! Thank you!

PS : i tested my Four Third 50mm f2. And it kicks on E-M1 Twisted Evil