Re Auto Topcor 58 f/1.4 vs 58 1.8 : How much better

tb_a · Expire: 2019-08-28

Maybe I've overlooked something here but I want like to point to the fact that both versions of the Topcor 58mm lenses have different constructions, hence they are not directly comparable.

The F1.4 version is an enhanced Planar 7/5 construction with an added element at the rear end likewise to the Minolta MC 58mm/F1.2.

The F1.8 version is a modified Planar 6/5 where the rear doublet is splitted into two elements like the later Zeiss/Jena Pancolar MC 50mm/F1.8.

I don't have the F1.4 version as I have such a lens (Minolta 58/1.2) already and assume that the rendering is quite comparable, particularly the bokeh.

The F1.8 version is rather unique and I don't have any second lens with a similar construction. It's an excellent performer.

However, here are some sample pictures from the Topcor 58/1.8 lens in a relatively late version from my Sony A7R II, flowers fully open and landscape at F5.6 (clickable for better quality viewing):

#1

#2

#3 (a rather strange weather situation outside)

stevemark · Joined: 29 Apr 2011 Posts: 3754 Location: Switzerland

I've compared the Topcor 1.8/58mm and the 1.4/58mm some years ago:

http://artaphot.ch/topcon-re/re-auto-topcor-lenses/483-re-auto-topcor-58mm-f14
http://artaphot.ch/topcon-re/re-auto-topcor-lenses/484-re-auto-topcor-58mm-f18

You will find also the 3.5/58mm Macro:
http://artaphot.ch/topcon-re/re-auto-topcor-lenses/488-re-auto-topcor-58mm-f35-macro

Both the 1.4/58mm as well as the 3.5/58mm macro certainly were good lenses at their time, but today i would consider them only if you are looking for a distinctive "vintage" look.

Stephan

cbass · Joined: 27 Jul 2019 Posts: 441

tb_a · Expire: 2019-08-28

cbass · Joined: 27 Jul 2019 Posts: 441

I managed to pick up a 58mm f/1.4 so I will soon be doing my own testing and posting the results.

stevemark · Joined: 29 Apr 2011 Posts: 3754 Location: Switzerland

cbass · Joined: 27 Jul 2019 Posts: 441

stevemark,

I appreciate the work that you do and I am familiar with your website and have already looked at it. However, for me that's not a complete test. I am looking at bokeh. I am looking at colors. I am looking at rendering that is pleasing to my eye and that last one is hard to quantify or measure but preference. I rarely use vintage lenses for infinity landscape shooting. Modern lenses with aspherical elements are better suited from my limited testing.

I am curious though. In another thread you said that you are hired to shoot landscape scenes and do it handheld so you can maximize the number of shots that you can produce. If that is your main shooting, then why are you testing older lenses? Wouldn't modern lenses with aspherical elements and stabilization provide better corner to corner performance at wider apertures?

Between the 1.4 and 1.8 I think there is a coating difference from my initial observation.

Blazer0ne · Expire: 2024-12-07

stevemark · Joined: 29 Apr 2011 Posts: 3754 Location: Switzerland

cbass · Joined: 27 Jul 2019 Posts: 441

I don't want to derail this too much, but have you managed to find a manual focus only lens that beats modern lenses with aspherical elements?

Blazer0ne · Expire: 2024-12-07

vivaldibow · Expire: 2021-03-09

cbass · Joined: 27 Jul 2019 Posts: 441

I am thinking they may be a bit mystified myself. It may end up for sale soon especially for the price they are fetching currently. It's typical Topcor where it's sharp wide open. Here is a test shot of my typical bokeh torture test: palm leaves. I did process this picture in capture one. Basically level and shadow adjustments. This is some wild bokeh.

I wonder how the Voigtlander Nokton 58mm f/1.4 would do here. From the sample pictures I am seeing the Nokton seems to produce smoother bokeh. It's supposed to be based off this Topcor but the Topcor is a 7/5 formula while the Nokton 7/6.

In my chromatic aberration torture test it also shows a descent amount. However, I am not sure how the 58mm f/1.8 does there yet. In fairness even my modern $1000 Fuji prime will show chromatic aberrations there, but less of them.

I also wonder if the 58 f/1.8 or 58 f/1.4 will end up sharper stopped down to f/2.8 and f/4.

Blazer0ne · Expire: 2024-12-07

cbass · Joined: 27 Jul 2019 Posts: 441

Just did a close focus sharpness test. Shot a bunch of books on a book shelf. I am not going to post the pictures unless people are really interested.
This was done on a APS-C sensor: FujiFilm X-T1. Not Full Frame so take that into consideration.

I have listed the aperture and which lens performed better in which area of the image. The biggest differences were moving away from the focus point especially the corners. I also wonder if I botched the test. Somehow at f/2 the F1.4 lens was stronger on the left side but weaker on the right side. Not sure how to explain that. If anyone have any ideas, then I am willing to hear them.

Wide Open: 1.8 is sharper than the 1.4 across the image, but it's F1.4 vs F1.8 so not apples to apples.
F/2: It's split.
F/2.8: The 1.4 tens starts to take over. The focus point is pretty much a tie between the 1.4 and 1.8. However, if you move up or down the book spine from the focus point the 1.4 is much sharper. Once you move to the other books in the corners the 1.4 is the clear winner.
F/4: The 1.4 continues to win in the corners. The focus point is pretty much a tie. You are really splitting hairs at the focus point.

Wide Open.
Focus Point: 1.8
Bottom Left: 1.8
Bottom Right: 1.8
Top left: 1.8 (Almost Tie)
Top Right: 1.8
Contrast: 1.8

F/2
Focus Point: 1.8 (Slight edge)
Bottom Left: 1.4
Bottom Right: 1.8
Top left: 1.4
Top Right: 1.8
Contrast: 1.4

F/2.8
Focus Point: Tie
Focus Point top/bottom: 1.4
Bottom Left: 1.4 (easy win)
Bottom Right: Tie
Top left: 1.4 (Easy win)
Top Right: 1.4
Contrast: 1.4

F/4
Focus Point: Tie
Focus Point top/bottom: 1.4 (Very Slight)
Bottom Left: 1.4 (easy win)
Bottom Right: Tie
Top left: 1.4 (noticeable)
Top Right: Tie
Contrast: Tie

Blazer0ne · Expire: 2024-12-07

cbass · Joined: 27 Jul 2019 Posts: 441

I did some more close focusing comparisons against a modern lens: FujiFilm XF 56mm f/1.2. Not a fair comparison as the Fuji is native to the camera and a APS-C lens and not full frame.

By f/2.8 the resolving power between the two lenses is almost identical. Perhaps, slight edge to the Fuji, but it's within the margin of error for manual focusing. Pretty surprising how similar they are considering the age difference.

Chromatic Aberrations and color fringing is pretty much identical as well. In this situation there was very little to none.

Bokeh is pretty similar but the Topcor is slightly more busy.

Wide open the Fuji wins in sharpness although it was f/1.2 vs f/1.4. The Topcor, however, does have enough resolution even wide open to produce good images. The Fuji is just sharper.

I didn't compare the lenses at f/2.

I will be going on vacation soon and will take the Topcor. I will see what it manages to produce under real world shooting conditions.

cbass · Joined: 27 Jul 2019 Posts: 441

I can see why people like this lens.

These I think were at f/2.8. Maybe even f/4. They are post processed.

The next shot is at f/8. Very close to the minimum focusing distance. Also post processed.

100% crop from that picture

kds315* · Expire: 2021-03-09

Here some of my results (all full open unless mentioned):

f1.4:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/kds315/albums/72157634078368017

f1.8:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/kds315/albums/72157633060044991

cbass · Joined: 27 Jul 2019 Posts: 441

Sadly, I will not be able to answer my original question. How much better is the 58mm f/1.4 compared to the cheaper 58mm f/1.8. I am not sure if the f/1.4 is worth 2x or sometimes 3x the price premium over the 58mm f/1.8. However, it's a very good lens.

My Summary:

The lens is sharp wide open. The DOF is shallow and difficult to nail. However, if you do the result is good. The bokeh can get a bit crazy wide open.

f/2: The lens is very good here. The bokeh starts to smooth out and behaves better than wide open.

f/2.8 and beyond. The lens is excellent from this point. Bokeh is often well behaved and smooth in most shooting conditions.

Colors and contrast as very good as well.

Some more pictures from the week.

@ f/4

@ f/4

@ f/8

caspert79 · Joined: 31 Oct 2010 Posts: 2917 Location: The Netherlands

I think the Topcor 58/1.8 in its time was already at the top of what a lens could achieve (the later versions at least. So maybe the f/1.4 is not necessarily better, but just faster?

cbass · Joined: 27 Jul 2019 Posts: 441

The lens is ridiculously sharp.
This is stopped down to f/4.
150% crop of the original image.
Shooting portraits you'll want to leave it open wider and miss focus slightly.

kds315* · Expire: 2021-03-09

cbass · Joined: 27 Jul 2019 Posts: 441

This is a handheld night shot. Wide open. ISO 4000. On APS-C. Looks sharp corner to corner to my eyes. Perhaps this wouldn't be the case on full frame, but on the crop sensor it is.